Replacing pump/filter

[sr1125]

I currently have a waterways Clearwater system (sand) 19" w/ 1hp pump. This came with my pool.

In the 1 3/4 years I've had it, I've had nothing but problems: bearing replacement, filter basket lid replacement (warped, leaking water when the pump was off). Not to mention the inconsistent lack of priming (hooking up vacuum or just running it, the pump registers zero.) Horribly slow at filtering water, need to run it for a long time.

I've check for leaks..nothing. This thing is just a nightmare.

So I am looking at the Hayward Xtreme system w/ 1HP pump (cartridge) 100ft.

Please tell me your opinion...better to replace my miserable filter, or am I jumping from the frying pan into the fire? Hate to spend $$$ and find out...I'm in the same boat. I really don't know much about pumps/filters. Is this particular system enough or too much for this particular pool?

This is a 4600 gal agp. At the moment, my water looks pretty good. Not spectacular, good.

Readings:
TC: 5
TA: 80
PH 7.5
CYA: <20 (water @ 50 degrees)

Thank you all for your help on this.

 

[JasonLion]

Hayward certainly has a better reputation than WaterWays, but it sounds like you were having problems far beyond the normal, which can occasionally happen to any brand.

I suggest that you look for a package that has a two speed pump. Running on low speed can save you a great deal in electric costs, and you still have high speed available for vacuuming and any other time you might need it.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

4600 gallons is on the small side, I would expect you could drop down to a 1/2 HP and save some $ upfront. Two speed would be nice also.

Sent via Tapatalk...

 

[linen]

Since the filter is plenty big for your pool, maybe consider just switching out the pump for a 2-speed? I have the hayward matrix 1 hp 2-speed which works great for me and my 20" filter. The pentair 1hp 2-speed dynamo is good as well.

As for the slow filtering, generally sand filters are going to filter similarly (assuming you are using a pool sand), additionally if you are having trouble with a sand filter filtering it is unlikely it will improve with other filter types. It is possible that your pool chemistry during the summer was not right and causing the filter to work "harder" than it should.

 

[sr1125]

Since the filter is plenty big for your pool, maybe consider just switching out the pump for a 2-speed? I have the hayward matrix 1 hp 2-speed which works great for me and my 20" filter. The pentair 1hp 2-speed dynamo is good as well.

As for the slow filtering, generally sand filters are going to filter similarly (assuming you are using a pool sand), additionally if you are having trouble with a sand filter filtering it is unlikely it will improve with other filter types. It is possible that your pool chemistry during the summer was not right and causing the filter to work "harder" than it should.

I was considering changing the sand filter to the cartridge type. I have to back wash this sand one...a lot. My backyard is a mess from the water (I have trees..debris...). The Xtreme has a gpm rate of 80GPM max, my existing is only 45GPM, so this would nearly double the amount of water filtering in almost half the time my existing one takes. (I am currently filtering 3-4 hours a day, and it's winter. Summer's are usually 6 hours. Because of the trees).

My chems were dead on al thru the summer, I just needed to add a little bleach every other day, since I haven't been using the pucks during the summer to avoid the hike in cya, ph, ta...

As for the 2 speed, what I was wondering is...if at high speed, it has a rate of 80GPM, what is the low speed rated at? If it halves, then I would be no better off that what I have now. I'd rather turn the water twice a day in half the time, than run at slow speed most of the time.

Is my thinking right here?

Thanks so much.

 

[duraleigh]

I have to back wash this sand one...a lot.

All the more reason to keep it. It's doing it's job of getting out a lot of dirt and debris. A cartridge will only require cleaning more often and it won't be as quick or easy as the sand filter backwash.

 

[linen]

duraleigh beat me too it but here is my take...

It sounds like you have a lot of organic debris getting into the pool from your trees. Eliminating that would be helpful. Even with trees (a picture might help here), normally one shouldn't have to backwash that size filter on that size pool very often...probably no more than once every two weeks and more likely no more than once a month.

Also, filters regardless of type are generally better at low flow rates. Ideally you want large filters run at low flow rates.

With that said, what you are describing suggests to me that your pool was constantly fighting organics, possibly from not maintaining an adequate concentration of chlorine at all times.

 

[sr1125]

So...my old, slow 45GPM filter is better than the 80GPM?

Is it the filter or pump that drives that flow rate?

Wouldn't I have a mismatch with using a new pump and my existing filter?

What about the erratic psi's I'm getting? Some times it remains at zero. I have to mess around with it to get it to 15. and that's without even hooking up the vac.

Now I am so confused. Bigger GMP isn't better?

I tried to upload a picture. System tells me it an invalid file. But yes, I have a huge tree in the yard. Cutting it down is big $$$, it's a 50 year old silver maple. messy, but beautiful shade in the summer. And I did have trouble with chlorine in the hot weather, I was having to add every day/other day because it just kept disappearing, although my numbers on ph, ta and cya were in range.

Thanks for your help. Now Im not sure whether I should replace anything or not. But I am running my pump 4 hours a day to keep my water clear. Would like to see that reduced somewhat

 

[duraleigh]

Keep this idea in mind....if you are having to backwash your sand filter a LOT, then you are collecting a LOT of debris (possibly dead algae, too) and all that debris has to be dealt with regardless of pump and filter size.

A sand filter is perhaps most beneficial under those conditions. The backwash is easier than constantly cleaning your cartridge.

Do you test your water? Can you post current test results? What city and State do you live in.?

 

[sr1125]

Readings:
TC: 5
TA: 80
PH 7.5
CYA: <20 (water @ 50 degrees)

Live in Northern Califonia.

Strangely enough, other than shocking when I removed the tarp cover, and then adding a bit of chlorine, I haven't had to do anything to the chems at all.

I'll need to deal with the CYA when it gets warmer.

They have remained consistent, and right now the water is very clear. some floaters in the water, those will get filtered if I run the pool for a good long time.

 

[linen]

So...my old, slow 45GPM filter is better than the 80GPM?

Yes for filtering.

Is it the filter or pump that drives that flow rate?

Both and the plumbing setup. If you try and push too much flow through a filter, it can be less effective. In the case of sand it can channel and then the water basically bypasses the sand.

Wouldn't I have a mismatch with using a new pump and my existing filter?

For your existing filter, you want about as small an agp pump as you can get. That is why we suggested a 2-speed so that you could run on low, which is approximately half the flow rate compared to high.

What about the erratic psi's I'm getting? Some times it remains at zero. I have to mess around with it to get it to 15. and that's without even hooking up the vac.

Is there air your pump leaf basket? If there is you might have a suction side leak. When you say mess around, what do you do?

Now I am so confused. Bigger GMP isn't better?

Bigger gpm is not better. Generally, unless you are running a cleaner that requires it or spa jets, lower gpm is better.

And I did have trouble with chlorine in the hot weather, I was having to add every day/other day because it just kept disappearing, although my numbers on ph, ta and cya were in range.

Chlorine gets used up by organics and will have to be replenished every day. Your tree is putting even a higher organic load, so you may need more chlorine.

But I am running my pump 4 hours a day to keep my water clear.

[/quote]At 50 degrees, you should not have add much chlorine at all (or very often) or run the pump long at all. Some folks even stop chlorinating a covered pool (light blocking) that is below 60F. Do you have a light blocking cover on the pool?

 

[linen]

So...my old, slow 45GPM filter is better than the 80GPM?

Yes for filtering.

Is it the filter or pump that drives that flow rate?

Both and the plumbing setup. If you try and push too much flow through a filter, it can be less effective. In the case of sand it can channel and then the water basically bypasses the sand.

Wouldn't I have a mismatch with using a new pump and my existing filter?

For your existing filter, you want about as small an agp pump as you can get. That is why we suggested a 2-speed so that you could run on low, which is approximately half the flow rate compared to high.

What about the erratic psi's I'm getting? Some times it remains at zero. I have to mess around with it to get it to 15. and that's without even hooking up the vac.

Is there air your pump leaf basket? If there is you might have a suction side leak. When you say mess around, what do you do?

Now I am so confused. Bigger GMP isn't better?

Bigger gpm is not better. Generally, unless you are running a cleaner that requires it or spa jets, lower gpm is better.

And I did have trouble with chlorine in the hot weather, I was having to add every day/other day because it just kept disappearing, although my numbers on ph, ta and cya were in range.

Chlorine gets used up by organics and will have to be replenished every day. Your tree is putting even a higher organic load, so you may need more chlorine.

But I am running my pump 4 hours a day to keep my water clear.

At 50 degrees, you should not have add much chlorine at all (or very often) or run the pump long at all. Some folks even stop chlorinating a covered pool (light blocking) that is below 60F. Do you have a light blocking cover on the pool?

 

[sr1125]

So...my old, slow 45GPM filter is better than the 80GPM?

Yes for filtering.

Is it the filter or pump that drives that flow rate?

Both and the plumbing setup. If you try and push too much flow through a filter, it can be less effective. In the case of sand it can channel and then the water basically bypasses the sand.

This is a cartridge filter I am looking at. Will that cause a problem?

Wouldn't I have a mismatch with using a new pump and my existing filter?

For your existing filter, you want about as small an agp pump as you can get. That is why we suggested a 2-speed so that you could run on low, which is approximately half the flow rate compared to high.

What about the erratic psi's I'm getting? Some times it remains at zero. I have to mess around with it to get it to 15. and that's without even hooking up the vac.

Is there air your pump leaf basket? If there is you might have a suction side leak. When you say mess around, what do you do?

Turn it on, turn it off, shale the hose on the suction side, sometimes turn on the backwash to get it to prime again....

Now I am so confused. Bigger GMP isn't better?

Bigger gpm is not better. Generally, unless you are running a cleaner that requires it or spa jets, lower gpm is better.
My cleaner is an aquacritter....and is it ever slow. Another reason the pump is constantly on. takes forever to vacuum.

And I did have trouble with chlorine in the hot weather, I was having to add every day/other day because it just kept disappearing, although my numbers on ph, ta and cya were in range.

Chlorine gets used up by organics and will have to be replenished every day. Your tree is putting even a higher organic load, so you may need more chlorine.

But I am running my pump 4 hours a day to keep my water clear.

At 50 degrees, you should not have add much chlorine at all (or very often) or run the pump long at all. Some folks even stop chlorinating a covered pool (light blocking) that is below 60F. Do you have a light blocking cover on the pool?

I just took it off. I have a net on now, which picks up pretty much all the big stuff. But mostly, just dirt that goes to the bottom and gets vacuumed. I didn't do anything with the pool all winter. Just dropped some chlorine, tarped it and ignored it for months. The only reason I opened it was to get the rain water off of the tarp and try not to dump too much in the pool while doing it.

So I can get a 2 speed pump, but can I upgrade the filter (larger sand or change to a cartridge)? I would really love for pool maintenance to not be a 24 hour project every weekend because my filter system is lame.

If this was your pool, what brand/size pump would you get and what brand/size/type filter, given my organic issues, since that tree isnt coming down anytime soon.

I have a headache from looking at all the different types. I hate this kind of shopping!
Thanks,

 

[linen]

but can I upgrade the filter (larger sand or change to a cartridge)?

You sure can upgrade the filter, but in theory you shouldn't need to since your current one is more than large enough. I was recommending a pump only change to better match pump to filter size since your current pump has given you so much trouble. As I mentioned before, I think you might have other things going on here pool chemistry related that we might be able to help you with once the pool season starts. You could even wait to upgrade the pump (if it is still working) until you get a little run time using the pool chemistry methods as taught on this site.

Probably the best thing you can do for you pool is get an appropriate test kit (if you don't have on already). See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/pool_test_kit_comparison Then read this pool school article: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/pool_water_chemistry

 

[sr1125]

So I am looking at the Hayward Power Flo Matrix Model SP15922s2, a dual speed.

This would be a good model to work with my existing Waterways sand filter? If not, any others you would suggest?

Not sure why I was under the impression I needed to replace in pairs, like tires...

Thank you.

 

[sr1125]

Just for a source of electricity costs here are my breakdowns per KWH:

Baseline Usage 348.00000 Kwh @ $0.13230
101-130% of Baseline 104.40000 Kwh @ $0.15040
131-200% of Baseline 234.60000 Kwh @ $0.30025

Most of this is my pool running

Maybe it DOES make sense to get a two speed, so If I have to run for a long time, then it won't be so painful.

Thank you for your help.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Check this chart out.
http://www.myconserve101.com/energySavi ... Pumps.aspx
Sent via Tapatalk...

 

[sr1125]

Update: I replace the pump with a Hayward 2 speed and is it ever quiet. And it sure sped up the vacuuming when it's on high speed. 45 minutes vs 1.5 hrs or more depending on the amount of stuff.

Now what I am trying to figure out: How long do I need to run the pump at low speed in order to turn the water twice. I was running it 4 hours a day on my old pump (4600 gal, 45GPM=100 minutes).
With the new pump, it's claiming up to 80GPM, but I am quite sure my old waterway sand filter can't handle this much. If I assume the same 45GPM, then I am looking at 8 hours based on 3450/1726 rpm.

Also, what kind of PSI reading should I be seeing on my guage? (I need to replace it, as 20=0 right now) but when on high it registers 35(15) and at low it is 22 (2PSI). I can see the water going thru the filter, so I know it's working, it is just not a real strong suction when I put my hand in the skimmer to feel suction.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks,

 

[linen]

Now what I am trying to figure out: How long do I need to run the pump at low speed in order to turn the water twice. I was running it 4 hours a day on my old pump (4600 gal, 45GPM=100 minutes).
With the new pump, it's claiming up to 80GPM, but I am quite sure my old waterway sand filter can't handle this much. If I assume the same 45GPM, then I am looking at 8 hours based on 3450/1726 rpm.

Why do you want to turn over twice? Assuming you have 1.5" plumbing that is not too long, then you are likely getting somewhere around 52 gpm on high on the Matrix and something slightly higher than 1/2 of that on low. Either way, run the pump long enough to keep you water reasonably free of debris...no need to run longer than that.

Also, what kind of PSI reading should I be seeing on my guage? (I need to replace it, as 20=0 right now) but when on high it registers 35(15) and at low it is 22 (2PSI). I can see the water going thru the filter, so I know it's working, it is just not a real strong suction when I put my hand in the skimmer to feel suction.

With a clean filter on my system (with the hayward matrix 1hp 2-speed and 1.5" supply and return) it runs about 4 psi on low and about 11 psi on high iirc (winter here).

 

[sr1125]

Well, I turn it twice because of the tree debris, and in the spring/summer bugs. I hate seeing all that float-y stuff in the pool. So I run it often so that it's filtered out.
Yes, I net and brush often, but as soon as I do it...splat! LOL

Which would bring me to: Really, how often should I be turning this in the summer? for maximum sparkly water.

And I guess my psi's are in line with yours. I am just concerned if it actually is filtering because of the slow suction. But this was installed this afternoon, so I need to play with the amount of time to leave it running.

But is that 45gph filter not a good match for my more capable pump? Not sure if that should be replaced also or not.

Thanks,