Newbie going BBB and Borates - Hi from Tassy

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dwa747

dwa747

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LifeTime Supporter
Dec 28, 2012
11
Howden, Tasmania, Australia
Hi from Tasmania,
fantastic site and bunch of helpful knowledgeable people. Been reading lots over the past week and had most of my questions answered reading other peoples posts and of course pool school.

I bought a 1250 litre hot tub 2 weeks ago and have added borates – very happy with the result. Still using the sanitiser that came with the tub (Lithium) till I use it up as I read in pool school there are minimal side effects.

Which brings me to my first question – I have been checking out bleach at local super markets.
One brand says on the label:
Active Ingredient: Sodium Hypochlorite 42g/L
(Available Chlorine 4.0% m/v) at use by date
Available Chlorine 2.0% m/v. Sodium Hydroxide 9g/L
So is the above 4% or 6% ?

The next question (or 10) is about the pool (55,000 liters).
Changed it to salt and solar heating when we bought the house about 7 years ago and have been pretty happy with it except for occasional cloudiness issues. But it is a lot of work to keep crystal clear. The local pool shop guys are fairly blasé – and have advised against bothering with CH or CYA when I have asked over the years. I take a test sample in every month and test weekly myself with the test kit they sell – the 4 Way Blue Devil kit.

So now I want to add CYA and Borates and go BBB with the pool too.
Before coming across this site I ordered online a LaMotte 2056 ColorQ Pro 7 Photometer as I was finding it hard to tell the difference between the test colours and this would take my eyes out of the equation – not one you recommend unfortunately - will it suffice? If yes, looks like I need to add a FAS/DPD Chlorine tester? I also ordered a Salt 3000 Water Meter as one pool shop tells me salt is too high – 7000 ppm, another tells me 0 salt I need to add 230 kgs, then when I question that, says sorry my mistake 4000 ppm, AquaCheck salt test says 5250 and the salt water chlorinator and chlorine tests say everything is just fine.

Had the pool water tested today:
Salt 4000 ppm (recommended level for my chlorinator)
Stabiliser 2
Iron 0
Free Copper 0
Free Chlorine 1.5
Total Chlorine 0
pH 7.5
Total Alkalinity 140
Calcium Hardness 22

Have input figures into The Pool Calculator and with lots of reading, it looks like I have to:
1/ Adjust TA down to 80 as per Pool School – Lower Total Alkalinity (the triple header page 2 looks good)
2/ Adjust CH up to 220 – will wait on tester as AquaChek strips says 100 for pool & tap water
3/ Adjust CYA up to 50 with 2.6 kg of Cyanuric Acid
$/ Add 16 kg Boric Acid or 24 kg Borax + 12 litres of Muriatic Acid

Does that sound about right?
Cheers
David
 
Hi and welcome to the site!

Your available Chlorine in that brand looks to be around 4-6%, the label says 4% at use by date so it will come out of the factory slightly higher (probably 5%) and as it's Sodium Hypochlorite a number of ambient factors will dictate how fast it loses its strength. It's worth shopping around, especially given the low chlorine availability of some store bleaches, and you will often find that the net cost is higher than buying Sodium Hypochlorite drums from a Pool Chemical Suppier, the bottom line is you need to do the research for AU and find your preferential supplier, be it Pool Store, Online or Local Superstore.

1) With a SWG, yes, TA needs to be brought down slightly.
2) CH does not require adjustment in Fibreglass Pool, it is only required if the Heater Manufacturer requires this to be done to maintain warranty.
3) Yes, you will need to bring CYA up to retain the Free Chlorine residual.
4) Yes, based on that you wish to go BBB

The Photometer you have ordered seems a reasonable piece of kit, photometers are easier and have a finer degree of accuracy, looking at a few reviews on amazon for the LaMotte 2056 ColorQ Pro 7 it seems to get ok reviews from the majority of customers the Pro 7 is a lower end of the market photometer, so will likely need more accuracy and patience when filling sample viles and adding reagent, compared with a Palintest Pooltest 25 Professional Plus for example - I am unsure of the availablity of FAS-DPD in Australia, there has been posts before, if you run a search you should be able to stumble accross them.

Regards
Stuart
 
Welcome to TFP!

I wouldn't worry about the salt level as long as the SWG is happy.

The ColorQ is fairly good, but it has some quirks, can be wildly wrong if CH is really really high, can't really test high FC levels, and isn't precise enough on CYA.

You will want to lower TA, but you don't need to get to that right away. I would deal with everything else first. CH is a somewhat similar situation. The fiberglass will laster longer with CH around 220-320, but there is no short term risk.

Borates are in the middle. There are really optional, so no rush, but nice to have.

CYA is the big issue to start with. I wouldn't trust any CYA/stabilizer test that gives a result of 2. None of the common CYA tests can give meaningful results below about 20. Meanwhile, if CYA really was 2, you would lose all of your chlorine to sunlight very very quickly each day. Chances are that CYA is higher than 20, though really there is no telling without better test results. Have you measured CYA with the ColorQ? One of the quirks of the ColorQ is that it's CYA test is not very precise, but it is still much better than the average pool store.

That bleach label appears to contradict it's self, chlorine can't be both 4% and 2%, so I'm unclear on what they are trying to say. My guess is that it is 4%, but that is just guessing.
 
ColorQ hasn't arrived yet so I'll wait till I can test properly with it or the TF-100 I just ordered from TDchlorinators.com.au after searching forum for a FAS-DPD tester. While I'm waiting I'll get started on the aerator. Thanks for the advise. Will post again as soon as one of the kits arrive.
 
+1 for not trusting the CYA level of 2. Doesn't sound right. Nor does CH = 22, sounds a bit weird too.

I wouldn't add the CYA until you do the test when you get your kit from TDChlorinators (Good choice there, I did the same.)

You don't need to add the muriatic acid if you are using boric acid. It doesn't raise pH, like borax does..

As for the bleach i think it would be 4.2%. I found Aldi to be the cheapest for bleach by far, but never looked at Costco here in Melbourne.

I only used Aldi bleach in winter though because I knew that it was pretty fresh due to turnover.

Have found the liquid chlorine in 15 litre drum from Bunnings is pretty cheap and convenient and in summer the store near me they do a big turnover so it is pretty fresh... they have the date on the side which shows manufacture date. Check that before you buy.

You will know if your bleach is understrength if the quantities in pool calculator don't achieve the right free chlorine.
 
[attachment=0:gcmi4w11]Spa.jpg[/attachment:gcmi4w11]Hi all,
ColorQ and TF-100 arrived a few days ago and have finally found time to test and post.

Pool temp 26 C
ColorQ TF-100 TF-100 OT (Taylor K1000) Hanna pH Tester
pH 7.5 7.8 7.9
FC 3 4.5 3
TC 3 1
AL 89 100
CH 59 60
CYA 43 40

While waiting for test kits I made a couple of aerators and have been bringing the AL down from initial 170 (my old Blue Devil test kit).
I also added CYA as I figured it was probably zero as I have only ever put salt, muriatic acid and bi-carb in it.

Have found that with the ColorQ, using a larger sample bottle (stays warmer longer) and doing the CH and CYA tests first I get a result closer to the TF-100.

My wife knows someone who can source boric acid locally hopefully – will know for sure when she goes back to work, otherwise I can get a 25 kg bag from the local hardware, and will checkout bleach at Bunnings as juzzie suggested.

For the spa, all is going beautifully except for a problem with foam when the air is turned on but have found the bleach I was using (White King – no additives mentioned on label) causes foam. If I put a little in a glass jar and shake – instant bubble bath. Have changed to Woolworths homebrand which is cheaper and no bubbles when shaken. Foam problem slowly going away.

Spa Temp 39 C
pH 7.8
FC 2
TC 3
TA 84
CH 185
CYA 55
 

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dwa747 said:
ColorQ and TF-100 arrived a few days ago and have finally found time to test and post.
Pool temp 26 C

Code: 
            ColorQ	TF-100 	TF-100 OT (Taylor K1000)	Hanna pH Tester
pH          7.5	                           7.8		7.9
FC          3             4.5		3
TC          3             1
AL          89           100
CH         59            60
CYA        43            40
Have found that with the ColorQ, using a larger sample bottle (stays warmer longer) and doing the CH and CYA tests first I get a result closer to the TF-100.
Click to expand...

AL = TA correct?

I would trust the FAS-DPD test more than the OTO test in the K1000. Also I assume the TC column for the TF-100 is wrong. I assume you meant to list 5.5? Which means that there was a result of 1.0 from the CC test - am I correct? Perhaps reformatting the others to show CC = 0 would be easier as TC is just FC + CC. If the CC's are really 1.0 - raise the FC up close to shock and check again - if the water is clear and cc's drop back down - run an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test and see if you are losing more than 1ppm of FC overnight. If you aren't and CC's are back to 0.5 or lower and the water is clear - you're in good shape with respect to chlorine. The pH might stand to be lowered some more which will lower TA as well.

Is this a Salt Water pool? I think you mentioned it was but I forget. If it is you need more CYA eventually but get the water crystal clear first.
 
Yes you are correct
AL = TA and it is a Salt Water pool.

And right again with TC/CC. The FAS-DPD measures FC and CC and ColourQ measures FC(2.8) and TC(3) which gives a CC of 0.2
I will be using the OTO test in the K1000 only as an indicator for a proper FAS-DPD test.
A shame the ColorQ is not more accurate as it is consistently lower on the pH, the FC and the CC/TC tests but close on TA, CH and CYA.
Unfortunately I ordered it before I read through this site properly, so as I have it I will use it as an indicator for a more accurate test.
The TF-100 TA test result of 100 was an anomaly as the 3 previous tests were 90.
Re-tested this morning:
TF-100 FC 4.5 CC .5 TC 5 pH 8 TA 90 CH 60 CYA 40
ColorQ FC 2.8 CC .2 TC 3 pH 7.4 TA 94 CH 58 CYA 41
The pool is very stable and clear. I will only show the TF-100 results from here on as they are the ones I act on.
 
Actually I like seeing the color q results because it helps us see how that test relates to the standard. How consistent is it?

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Okay I'll do the TF-100 and ColorQ tests side by side for a while and check consistency.
I'll run an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test and run the full gamut of tests with both kits tomorrow - pH and TA should be down a bit as I added 1 liter of acid.
10.15 pm FAS-DPD FC 4.5 CC .5 TC 5
 
To do the oclt well you need to raise FC closer to shock. The percentage lost overnight would need to be huge at low FC levels to show problems.

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dwa747 said:
ahh, just read The Shock Process and Perform the Overnight FC Loss Test, so that answers the SWG question.
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't get a chance to respond yesterday. Yup... you might be able to use an SWG during shocking if you are trying to maintain levels during the day - but you can't use it overnight when doing the OCLT. The easiest model for getting the pool up to shock is to add chlorine manually - depending on the pool this may be CalHypo or Sodium Hypochlorite (bleach) but most of the time Sodium Hypochlorite is preferred.
 
Yes will go with bleach. It's the middle of pool season for us so pool getting lots of use atm, but kids and wife are away for 3 days starting Friday, so will start Friday morning.
Meanwhile I could get the rest of the figures into line:
Target FC 6 pH 7.8 TA 80 CH 320 CYA 70 leaving borates out of it for now gives me CSI of -0.09
Can't seem to get to 0 within suggested goal levels (TFP,SWG and Fiberglass)

Test results atm:
TF-100 FC 6 CC .25 TC 6.25 pH 7.3 TA 90 CH 60 CYA 50
ColorQ FC 5.12 CC .24 TC 5.36 pH 7.3 TA 81 CH 78 CYA 56
 
dwa747 said:
Test results atm:
TF-100 FC 6 CC .25 TC 6.25 pH 7.3 TA 90 CH 60 CYA 50
ColorQ FC 5.12 CC .24 TC 5.36 pH 7.3 TA 81 CH 78 CYA 56
Click to expand...
How did you get 0.25 CC? Testing with 10ml sample gives results of 0.5ppm increments, 25ml samples give results in 0.2ml increments.

Describe what you did to test the sample.

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