Grounding pump question (video)

[marty]

Is this normal? if anything it gets annoying when cleaning filter. I know the filter band is metal but since the body is not, how would the voltage reach the ground? Can i drill through cement and put to earth? thank you


[youtube:303a434u]UifpcjWe5VU[/youtube:303a434u]

 

[marty]

Not sure if video is working right here. here it is on you tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UifpcjWe5VU

 

[Bama Rambler]

A lot of us can't see video so if you could post a pic instead it would help.

 

[JohnT]

To clarify, the wire isn't a ground wire it is a bond wire. Your pump is grounded by the electrical service feed.

The difference is that the bond wire connects everything conductive in the pool area together to prevent an electrical shock. It should connect the pool itself, all railings, deck rebar, dive stand, pumps, lights, heater and anything else conductive that could come in contact with the pool water or with a bather in the pool.

It is a critical safety feature.

That said, I've never seen a filter band bonded like yours is.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

.
That said, I've never seen a pump band bonded like yours is.

Did you mean filter band?
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[JohnT]

.
That said, I've never seen a pump band bonded like yours is.

Did you mean filter band?
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Yes I did. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll edit it to keep from confusing anyone.

 

[marty]

John, can i remove altogether then? or is it there to prevent shock when i go to clean filter? How would a fiberglass body with get electrical charge???

(equipment pad is like 30+feet away past 2 gates)

Whats the difference between ground and bond?

Thanks again

 

[JohnT]

John, can i remove alltogether then? if filter is fiber glass then i shouldnt worry right.(equipment pad is like 30+feet away past 2 gates)

Whats the difference between ground and bond?

Thanks again

I really thought the NEC would have excluded that band from bonding, but I'm not seeing it. I wouldn't bond the band on my pool, but I can't advise you not to unless the code says it doesn't need to be.

Ground is a connection to the earth. Bonding is making an electrical connection between two conductors to prevent a voltage difference from existing.

 

[carolina pool]

Although we have bonded just about everything else on equipment pads to satisfy different inspectors interpretations, we have never had to bond a filter clamp as shown. However, I could certainly see how an inspector might interpret that to be the case. We install stainless steel filters that don't require bonding and use to install bronze push/pull valves that didn't require bonding. It would be interesting to hear from an expert as to why heaters and ozone generators etc, are always required to be bonded but not the clamps for pump housings and filters. The code use to and might still enumerate the mass of metal that required bonding which a filter clamp would probably exceed.

Bonding requirements have always been a moving target in the industry.

 

[CraigMW]

I always thought it was just the electrified equipment on the pool pad that needed to be bonded (e.g. pumps, heaters, blowers, panels), and these are always supplied with bonding lugs. I have a stainless DE filter and I don't see any supplied bonding lug on it, which fits with my theory. I too would like to hear an expert's understanding of this.

 

[danpik]

Bonding is one of the most misunderstood concepts out there. I suspect in this case the inspector that looked at this instalation doesn't understand it either. I have had to shake my head at some instalations here in town this past summer because the installer (one guy) did not know the code and the inspector (new guy) doesn't understand it either. Last one I dealt with was when a customer was covering his above ground pool. Big oval pool, away from the equipment pad he was getting a shock (minor one) from a screw head on the pool rail. Near the pad he was not getting it. Suspecting an electrical issue he called me to look at it. The installer and the inspector who both did not understand the code interpreted it as the pool bond having to be connected in 4 places (correct) but implemented it wrong. The 4 connections were to 4 side rails in succession (one after the other) and not at 4 equally spaced points around the pool frame with the wire burried in the ground going to each point. The shock came from differentials in potential of the ground and the pool frame at that end of the pool. Most of the bonding I see in that vid looks fine, Not sure why they did what they did on the motor as there usually is a bonding lug under the end cover, but none the less it works fine. The filter band is realy out there though. While technicaly a metal surface, there is not enough mass to hold a large enough potential difference to be a noticable shock.

As for the Stainless DE filter question. Just because it does not have a lug does not mean it doesn't have to be bonded. In fact that would be a great place for the water bond as it more than exceeds the 9 square inch requirement. That is as long as the water inside is in contact with the stainless.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

I always thought it was just the electrified equipment on the pool pad that needed to be bonded (e.g. pumps, heaters, blowers, panels), and these are always supplied with bonding lugs. I have a stainless DE filter and I don't see any supplied bonding lug on it, which fits with my theory. I too would like to hear an expert's understanding of this.

Your rebar in the decking, ladders, etc are typically bonded also.

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[msgtdan]

4 equally spaced points around the pool frame with the wire burried in the ground going to each point.

I've seen this statement before in relation to bonding, but it seems to me to be a classic example of grounding. Taking potential differences to ground (literally). I'm retired AF and the tanker's I worked on were bonded from one end to the other. Before we hooked up a refueling truck/station we had to bond the truck to the tanker at both ends of the plane and the truck had to be grounded with one ground and the plane with a ground at both ends. If an over the wing nozzle was used it had to be bonded to the aircraft at the tank. Research had shown that the plane could have a different potential from one end to the other even though it was bonded, this had caused disastrous accidents via static sparks.

 

[JohnT]

The 2008 Code says

"(3) Metal Fittings. Metal fittings within or attached to the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub structure, such as ladders and handrails.
(4) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub water circulating system, such as water heaters and pump motors. Accessible metal parts of listed equipment incorporating a system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal metal parts are not required to be directly bonded to the equipotential grid. "


I can see how an inspector could take paragraph (3) to require the band to be bonded, but then paragraph (4)specifically says the metal parts of electrical equipment.

 

[danpik]

4 equally spaced points around the pool frame with the wire burried in the ground going to each point.

I've seen this statement before in relation to bonding, but it seems to me to be a classic example of grounding. Taking potential differences to ground (literally). I'm retired AF and the tanker's I worked on were bonded from one end to the other. Before we hooked up a refueling truck/station we had to bond the truck to the tanker at both ends of the plane and the truck had to be grounded with one ground and the plane with a ground at both ends. If an over the wing nozzle was used it had to be bonded to the aircraft at the tank. Research had shown that the plane could have a different potential from one end to the other even though it was bonded, this had caused disastrous accidents via static sparks.

The 4 attachment points with the wire underground are actually bonding. there is a potential difference between the pool parts and the ground. There is a voltage potential in the ground as well as in each metal pool component (won't get into the discussion on electrical potential in non metal parts) The purpose of the bonding grid is to bring all of the potentials into the same potential. Think static shock from a carpet. When you shuffle your feet you are building an electrical potential in your body. The metal doorknob you touch is not at that same potential. When you bond yourself to the knob(grab it) you bring both yourself and the knob into the same potential by transferring the current (spark/shock). The reason your tanker was bonded from one end to the other is that each joint in the plane superstructure was a resistance point and there was a possibility of the electrical potential of the plane to differ from one end to the other. That bonding evened out the gradients in the plane and left it at one potential level. The tank truck/fuel station was at a completely different potential so the wire connection would even those out. If you did not do that the fueling nozzle could become the connection point to even out the potentials (think hand to doorknob) and the spark would happen at worst possible place. Connecting the truck to a ground rod simply placed all three components into the same potential as the ground is at a completely different potential. This is all about removing the possibility of a static spark jumping a gap uncontrollably. I used to drive a gas tanker for filling stations and always had to bond the truck to the tank being filled or to the fuel rack when getting loaded (the truck that is)

 

[msgtdan]

danpik,

I understand and agree with most of what you say. Where I disagree is that the loop buried loop around the pool is not grounding. I agree it is bonding, but it is also a ground. Properly grounding household wiring is burying metal rods in the ground and connecting them to the proper lugs in the power panel. Burying a bare metal wire in the ground IS grounding. Yes you are bonding all the parts to the same potential, but that potential is ground.

(won't get into the discussion on electrical potential in non metal parts) The purpose of the bonding grid is to bring all of the potentials into the same potential. Think static shock from a carpet. When you shuffle your feet you are building an electrical potential in your body.

which is a discussion on electrical potential in non metal parts :-D

 

[JohnT]

danpik,

I understand and agree with most of what you say. Where I disagree is that the loop buried loop around the pool is not grounding. I agree it is bonding, but it is also a ground. Properly grounding household wiring is burying metal rods in the ground and connecting them to the proper lugs in the power panel. Burying a bare metal wire in the ground IS grounding. Yes you are bonding all the parts to the same potential, but that potential is ground.

(won't get into the discussion on electrical potential in non metal parts) The purpose of the bonding grid is to bring all of the potentials into the same potential. Think static shock from a carpet. When you shuffle your feet you are building an electrical potential in your body.

which is a discussion on electrical potential in non metal parts :-D

Though the bond wire is in contact with the earth, that is not necessarily the same potential as the ground from the electrical system, and the ground contact is incidental to the installation. If a power transmission line were to fall on the ground or be contacted by a tracked vehicle, the soil around the pool could be at thousands of volts relative to the electrical system ground.

 

[msgtdan]

We're getting far off the original post so I'll drop it here with this, I grant that local ground potential can vary. My examples would be Lightening strikes and electric fence chargers, both can cause electrical issues with household electricity if too close to the house ground. But household ground is the ground around your house, and depending how far your pool is from the house it is the pool's ground as well. Mine is far enough away that when I put in a power panel this spring I will place another ground rod for it. Because I'll be coming directly from the meter the panel will be a main, not a sub is another reason.

 

[carolina pool]

I spoke to our electrician today and he said the 9 sq inches of metal mass rule only applys within 5 ft of the waters edge. Because the equipment is always at least 5 ft away from the waters edge, only equipment with electrical componets require bonding. Although milivolt heaters did not use to be bonded and could be an arguable case, he bonds them anyway to avoid arguments with inspectors. In general if the inspector wants it bonded it gets bonded which is probably what happened with the orignal posters filter.

 

[CraigMW]

I always thought it was just the electrified equipment on the pool pad that needed to be bonded (e.g. pumps, heaters, blowers, panels), and these are always supplied with bonding lugs. I have a stainless DE filter and I don't see any supplied bonding lug on it, which fits with my theory. I too would like to hear an expert's understanding of this.

Your rebar in the decking, ladders, etc are typically bonded also.

Sent via Tapatalk...

Correct, but that would be the deck, etc, next to the pool water. I think the bonding requirement extends to either 3 or 5 feet from the water. I haven't heard anything about bonding of the pool pad rebar, etc. I was describing the equipment at the pool pad, which would (by code) not be right next to the pool. So, the quandary is really the need for bonding of various pieces of equipment on the equipment pad in contact with the water via plumbing.