PB went bankrupt - Need to pick equipment myself

[MikeInSoCal]

Our pool builder went under. Luckily for us, he already completed the parts of the job we paid for (other clients weren't so lucky) so we didn't get hurt financially. Our contractor tells us that we'll probably even save money on the remaining parts, although we have to do some of the legwork ourselves.

We had an equipment installer here on Friday and I realized this is an aspect where a PB can be a big help. The installer is not so good at explaining things, since he's normally just a sub for PB's. He wasn't expecting that I wouldn't know exactly what we need. He's a nice guy, though, so he helped me as best he could.

The main thing I'm confused about are controllers. The installer (and our general contractor) are recommending Jandy or Pentair systems. We've more or less decided on Jandy, but I don't remember why, so we could be talked out that. Seems like a reputable company though and the installer doesn't make a markup (we buy the equipment ourselves) so I trust his motives.

Anyway, what I don't understand is how many controllers we need. There's a wireless handheld PDA thing that seems cool, since you can have it in the hottub to turn on jets and whatnot, or have it in the house to turn on the heater ahead of time. Do we need another controller beyond that? Apparently we need to program in what time the filter automatically goes on and other stuff I'm not all that familiar with. (This is our first pool.) Can this be done with that PDA gadget, or do we need to also buy a dedicated controller for that?

There's some sort of iAquaLink option that lets us do everything with an iPad, but is that overkill? My wife and I aren't gadget freaks who are going to try and impress our friends with "See? We can turn on the jets even if we're in Alaska!" (That's the example the installer gave.) Plus it's expensive, although I guess there's a package deal where other equipment we need gets included, although I can't remember because my head was spinning as they tried to explain all this to me.

Perhaps we need to hire a consultant, but if there's an easy to answer to "Here's what a couple in their 50's who just wants a simple setup pool should get" I'm all ears.

FWIW, here's the equipment list the guy gave me. The pool is 16' x 36" with a spa in one corner. We're in Los Angeles. He didn't specify brands, but he said for warranty purposes, we'd want to stay consistent with whatever brand we choose.
1.5 horsepower pump
2 horsepower pump
400 btu heater
60 filter
1 back wash
1 blower
1 white pool light (LED?)
1 white spa light
1 Jandy subpanel power center w/t salt system
1 cell

I forgot to mention, we're doing a salt system. (My wife hates chlorine.) If that's a mistake, please let me know.

Also, the gunnite and tile is in, but not the plaster. We were told that pool plaster is generally gray, because that makes the pool look bluer and not so bright as a white plaster. But as I searched through this forum, I saw a guy plaster his pool green. Is there a reason we should consider plastering a color (blue or green) instead of gray?

 

[bigdav160]

Look I'm first in again.

I'm building my own pool so I can relate to the equipment decisions. In the end I went with what was on sale at the time. I certainly overkilled it. Jandy and Pentair are the big players in this area. Pentair might get a slight nod in reliability but they are close. Hayward brand, once only a spa equipment maker, is pushed by many pool builders. They have a strong incentive program for their dealers.

Your list:
1.5 horsepower pump:This your primary pool pump. At least, make sure it is two speed. Low speed will save you money. If you buy a single speed pump you might be able to get away with a 1hp
2 horsepower pump:This will be for spa use only
400 btu heater:This large heater will heat a spa quickly. How big is the spa?
60 filter:I assume this is a DE filter(?). If you snoop around in the other equipment section there are threads on filter choices.
1 back wash
1 blower:This is for spa use also. Horsepower requirements depends on the size and length of piping. Even after reading the manufacture material it still seems like a guess.
1 white pool light (LED?):Personally, I not sure one LED will have enough lumens to light your pool
1 white spa light
1 Jandy subpanel power center w/t salt systemJandy or Pentair. Heck there are probably other brands like Intermatic that are just fine. It probably will depend on how much you like gadgets. Remember, "salt pools" are "chlorine pools". They just generate the chlorine in a different way. The salt system, once dialed in, saves time in day to day upkeep, it can be detrimental to some pools surfaces.

Finally, on the color finishes. I'm still a fan of white plaster. The colored finishes give a certain "look" to the pool but, IMHO, make the water cloudy looking. I like being able to see details on the bottom of the pool.

 

[bpricedo]

Unfortunately, I am not he guy to help with the pump situation. There will be others along soon that can help you with that. I just wanted to say that a salt water pool IS a chlorine pool. The "cell" you have listed generates chlorine from the salt added to the pool water which keeps you from having to add any chlorine most of the time so it simplifies things. Tell your wife not to worry, a properly maintained pool is a delight to swim in and you are in the right place to learn all about that.

Most of us have color LEDs instead of white, although the color ones also have white light too. This can be a very pleasant effect at night to see your pool glow different colors.

As far as plaster, if you go with "standard" plaster, it will be white or shades of gray. The gray can be light or even a dark charcoal to almost black color. The darker color will help warm the water. With a gray plaster, the trowel marks when they apply it show up, this is called "mottling". It is more pronounced the darker the gray. Gray plaster does make your water look a very nice blue. I have a medium shade of gray, see my build thread link below. It is common to quote 7-10 years lifespan for regular plaster, my guy told me 10-15 with proper maintenance of your water.

For the other colors of plaster, there are upgraded types that are still considered regular plaster but have increased durability and some different colors such as Altima by Wet Edge. There are also quartz and pebble finishes where the color comes from the pebbles that are in the mix. I believe the green one you mentioned was a quartz finish (Waterworx's pool?). All of those options add cost at the promise of lasting longer than regular plaster and of course, the colors are pretty.

Nothing will be as smooth as regular plaster, some don't like the texture/roughness of the other finishes. You will have to get in one to decide yourself.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Need more detailed info to help. Size of pipes, number of skimmers, number of drains, number of returns (back to the pool), gallons estimated, model numbers for all equipment...

As mentioned, salt is a chlorine system. It will smell better than those using pucks. If you follow the recommendations here it will not be likely to bother her at all.

All pool pumps greater than 1 hp in CA are required to be variable speed or two speed. You may not need variable if you don't have a lot of features and you are using two pumps already. A bit curious why they specified two pumps if you are going to have automation - I am no expert on spa/pool combo, but I would have thought a single large variable speed would be best.

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[MikeInSoCal]

This is really helpful stuff. Thank you! You guys have some great looking pools, by the way, and the in-progress threads are fun. I kinda wish I could have gone the route of doing it myself, but my wife would kill me because I'm the world's slowest do-it-yourselfer.

Blaine, I love the water color you got. Is there a name for the shade of gray plaster you chose? (Yes, the green plaster I saw was Waterworx.)

I'm pretty sure the main pump is variable speed, but I'll double check. As UWV mentioned, we're in California and this pool is built with L.A. City permits, so I think we're good there.

The spa is about 8"x8". We intentionally chose the 400k btu heater to heat the spa quickly. The guy also said something about it also being more efficient and cost effective, but I take that with a grain of salt.

Speaking of salt, I didn't know that salt pools are chlorine pools. I knew chlorine was still involved, but I thought it was less or something. Either way, so long as it smells better, we're good.

I should have written that the pool light is color LED. We have one in the pool and one in the spa. We can't add more, since the piping and gunite are done. I'll double check that LED pumps enough lumens to pass city code.

To my original question, do controls automatically come with the Jandy subpanel, or do settings have to be done with some external controller, like the wireless handheld PDA or the iPad option or the wireless panel they sell that you can put in your house? In other words, if we get that wireless PDA (link below,) are we done?
http://www.bestbuypoolsupply.com/jandy-pda-control.html
Maybe I should call the pool supply store, since this kind of thing varies so much from to brand, but if there are any heads-up questions I should ask them, let me know. Thanks!

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

I'm pretty sure the main pump is variable speed, but I'll double check. As UWV mentioned, we're in California and this pool is built with L.A. City permits, so I think we're good there.

Actually my point was that you may not need Variable Speed (but since you have added the cost of automation it may not be an issue) a two speed pump would meet the codes (I think) and cost a lot less. If you are sold on variable speed - I'm surprised they went with two pumps - one bigger variable speed pump should be able to do it all. Maybe I'm missing something - admittedly not my area of expertise.

The spa is about 8"x8". We intentionally chose the 400k btu heater to heat the spa quickly. The guy also said something about it also being more efficient and cost effective, but I take that with a grain of salt.

I suspect the faster rise time means less time for heat loss to rob you of $$$ - imagine that your heater was sized so small it wouldn't do more than barely exceed the heat loss - you'd have to run it days in advance to get to the temp you wanted and you'd end up running it all the time. You'd pay a lot more that way than you would if you only used it now and then and fired it up a couple hours ahead of time. Maybe that's what he meant...

Speaking of salt, I didn't know that salt pools are chlorine pools. I knew chlorine was still involved, but I thought it was less or something. Either way, so long as it smells better, we're good.

Actually if you follow BBB method taught here you will use more total chlorine in parts per million than many pools your wife may have been in - BUT - you will have less smell and irratation becuase the nasty little secret no one tells you is that pools that do not have enough Chlorine (in the active state) actually smell like what we think of as "that nasty Chlorine smell". A properly maintained pool will smell almost like there is no chlorine in it - or at most like a very faint weak smell of bleach. The reason for this is simple - the organic wastes and algae's that combine with chlorine and die use up the aggressively active form of chlorine and what they leave behind smells worse. That's the least technical way to explain it that I know.

Also using Salt Water Chlorine Generators (SWCG aka SWG) does allow you to run a slightly lower overall chlorine level than would be needed with alternate forms of chlorine - which helps on top of the reasons mentioned above.

I should have written that the pool light is color LED. We have one in the pool and one in the spa. We can't add more, since the piping and gunite are done. I'll double check that LED pumps enough lumens to pass city code.

Unless the pool has an odd shape and shadowed areas - you're likely just fine.

To my original question, do controls automatically come with the Jandy subpanel, or do settings have to be done with some external controller, like the wireless handheld PDA or the iPad option or the wireless panel they sell that you can put in your house? In other words, if we get that wireless PDA (link below,) are we done?

I don't know. But every automation system I have seen pictures of or talked to someone about here has had controls in the main panel box near the equipment - this is in addition to any wireless or wired extra controls that they might have installed.

 

[bigdav160]

if we get that wireless PDA (link below,) are we done?
http://www.bestbuypoolsupply.com/jandy-pda-control.html

No, you'll need the kit above (with actuators) plus the Jandy power/control panel

 

[MikeInSoCal]

UWV, I'm going to pass along this 2-Speed/Variable speed information to my general contractor and installer. It sounds like 2-speed might be the ticket. It might even be what they've already spec'd, and maybe I used the term "variable speed" incorrectly.

Your heat loss explanation makes sense. Although they already had us at "You won't have to wait so long for the spa to heat up."

The pool is a straight rectangle (so we can have an automatic cover,) so the single light must be okay.

I can see what you mean about "that chlorine smell" actually being because of not enough chlorine. This is very interesting stuff. I've been digging around on this site (a lot of great info here) and I think I understand SWG a lot better now.

BigDav160, if I'm understanding you correctly, if we have the Jandy Power/Control panel along with the handheld wireless PDA I linked, then we're good to go? We could set the filter timers and everything with just those?

Thank you for all the help guys. I have to go from Knowledge=0 to Order-Everything-Myself, so I feel a lot better about this now.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

It's amazing how fast you can pick up stuff if you have a source of good info like this site isn't it?

 

[bpricedo]

Mike,

Our plasterer had two shades they commonly did, the "french" gray and "lagoon" gray. The french shade is a medium shade, my thread has pictures of plaster before water. If you decided that was what you wanted you could always show that to your plasterer and he could match it I'm sure.

The lagoon shade was a dark charcoal gray.

I know diamondbrite has a French gray color, I think most surface alternatives have shades of gray that would be similar.

 

[Kellym]

I just put in a jandy system with a vsp pump and salt water I didn't go with the PDA and have the app on my iPad and iPhone with aqua link. You can do everything with the app and save mony. I run my pump on a low speed most of the time and the electric bill is almost unchanged. Pump is jep2, cv460 filter the panel is 6614ap-L set for 8 relays.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

I'm not sure what value the wireless PDA or iPAD control is - but I have a VERY basic pool with no real features to control. What do you plan to do with this controller that you would want to do while inside the house or in the hot tub that you could not do otherwise?

 

[MikeInSoCal]

I'm not sure what value the wireless PDA or iPAD control is - but I have a VERY basic pool with no real features to control. What do you plan to do with this controller that you would want to do while inside the house or in the hot tub that you could not do otherwise?

That's a good question, because I'm not sure of the answer myself. My understanding is that with the wireless PDA, we could turn jets, air bubbles, etc. on or off while in the spa. (It's waterproof and floats.) Granted, when we've been at hotels, it's never been that much of a problem to turn a knob on the wall to do the same thing, so we're not sure we really need this. Still, I guess it might be cool to have. The thing that *would* be cool, though, is the ability to heat up the spa ahead of time from the house before going outside.

The iPad control is something I'm less attracted to, because I worry about internet problems and such. Plus the load times and learning curve for the app might negate the time spent just walking out to the spa and doing it at the control panel. (Assuming that's possible.) However, what I'm unclear about is that I get the impression that adjusting settings is more intuitive on the iPad than on the box by the pool. But this is the part I don't know, so anyone please chime in on this.

Supposedly these settings we need to adjust include things like what time of day the filter(?) is on or off. My understanding is that to be more efficient, this stuff can be set so it isn't on 24 hours a day, which I think is what Kelly is talking about. But again, this is the part that's over my head right now.

I just put in a jandy system with a vsp pump and salt water I didn't go with the PDA and have the app on my iPad and iPhone with aqua link. You can do everything with the app and save mony. I run my pump on a low speed most of the time and the electric bill is almost unchanged. Pump is jep2, cv460 filter the panel is 6614ap-L set for 8 relays.

That makes sense. I wonder - can these same things be set with the control panel itself (in the pool equipment room)? If so, is it significantly easier with the iPad?

Our plasterer had two shades they commonly did, the "french" gray and "lagoon" gray. The french shade is a medium shade, my thread has pictures of plaster before water. If you decided that was what you wanted you could always show that to your plasterer and he could match it I'm sure.

The lagoon shade was a dark charcoal gray.

I know diamondbrite has a French gray color, I think most surface alternatives have shades of gray that would be similar.

Perfect. I'm sure (or at least I hope) our plasterer will be familiar with the color name, even if he uses a different brand. Thanks!

It's amazing how fast you can pick up stuff if you have a source of good info like this site isn't it?

Absolutely! I really appreciate the help!

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

With a variable speed pump you might be able to set a pump rate that permitted 24 hour pumping without costing a mint to run. However that is not needed.


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[Kellym]

You can do more with the app or PDA than on the Box. You don't need timers or the separate controller for a vsp pump with the jandy equipment as it runs of the 6614. Box but you need an inside hard wired controller. If you don't go that way you need the PDA with Aqua link or the app. I just went with the app works great and was less money. If you are away from home and want to heat up the spa just turn on the heater with you phone ck temp. I use mine to work the pool light,color led and the pump for water falls.also runs the salt system and you just need the cell and not the controller for that as well if used with automation. It will run valve actuators also.

 

[CraigMW]

Mike:

Since you are in LA, you will get a hefty rebate from either DWP or from SoCal Edison, depending on your power provider. As I recall, the DWP rebate is $500! Here's a list of qualifying pumps:

https://www.ladwp.com/cs/idcplgIdcServi ... stReleased

SCE has a $200 rebate for these.

We have all Pentair equipment and really like the integration. This is something to keep in mind, especially as you are planning to configure an automation system. So, if you go with Jandy, you'll need to get a Jandy pump and chlorinator for best integration/control options with their automation systems. The same goes for Pentair and Hayward/Goldline. I also like the idea of the Jandy PDA system, but ended up going with Pentair's system. As for control via an iPhone or Android, there are ways to do this with the Jandy and Pentair systems (not sure about this with the Hayward/Goldline systems). In my experience with our setup, there are no problems connecting via the internet to the automation system (a Pentair Easytouch 8). It's all pretty much instantaneous. Plus, I can check on the pool from anywhere in the world if need be. It's also handy when I'm servicing the pool to be able to control the pump and valves from my Android.

 

[MikeInSoCal]

Thanks UWV and Kelly. I'm understanding this better and better. I think I'm ready now to make a trip to pool equipment store tomorrow morning.

Craig, that's very interesting about the rebates. Both my pumps are on their list, but the DWP application says, "Pool Pump and motor must be replaced to qualify." So rebates might not apply to new pools, but I'm going to look into it. (I ain't leavin' 500 bucks on the table unless I'm *sure* I don't qualify.)

I'm not sure why we've chosen Jandy instead of Pentair. (I think our contractor told us Jandy has better Mac integration, while Pentair is more Android friendly?) Now that I understand this better, I think I can ask more intelligently tomorrow at the pool store which I should get. I think it will just boil down to which controller setup suits our lifestyle best.

 

[CraigMW]

I'm not sure why we've chosen Jandy instead of Pentair. (I think our contractor told us Jandy has better Mac integration, while Pentair is more Android friendly?) Now that I understand this better, I think I can ask more intelligently tomorrow at the pool store which I should get. I think it will just boil down to which controller setup suits our lifestyle best.

Actually, Pentair's ScreenLogic 2 interface for the EasyTouch and IntelliTouch ONLY supports the iPhone and does not currently have an Android solution for this. This is the reason I ended up using a 3rd party solution from Autelis to connect up our EasyTouch. Autelis has interfaces for both Jandy and Pentair for that matter. I believe both Pentair and Jandy have iPhone interfaces, so if that's your phone, then you are set. From my recollection, the Jandy systems seemed somewhat pricey. I recommend at least having a look at the EasyTouch systems from Pentair before you pull the trigger (if you haven't already). They come integrated with a SWCG, the Intellichlor, and different "kits" are available with different capacity Intellichlors (e.g. the IC20, IC40 and IC60). I would suggest checking some of the online vendors for pricing info. Your PB may be able to offer better discounts on these systems, but you can use the online pricing as a rough guide to differences between the Jandy and Pentair systems. From my research, both of these vendors supply automation systems that appear to be pretty close in terms of functionality.

If you plan on adding home automation (HA) down the road (like Insteon or Z-Wave), you might want to do a little more study about this now. The Autelis solutions I mentioned allow for easy HA integration. Of course, you can control your landscape lighting from your pool automation system, but I find it easier to do this with Insteon stuff, as we have quite a few LV transformers distributed around our yard, not to mention all throughout the house. Our EasyTouch integrates nicely with the HA system. But, this could also be done with the Jandy stuff. Have a quick look at the Autelis interfaces if you're interested.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Something to remember if doing SWG. Upsize it! The recommendation here is to get one much larger than manufacturers say is needed.


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