Pool - Spillover Spa Integration

[wpbucher]

I'm planning a pool (28K) with a waterfall and "drop in" spillover spa (450 gallons).

Need configuration as simple as possible. I would like to avoid automation if at all possible.

There are seating areas in the pool where water comes out. The primary function (from my wife's point of view) of these outlets is to provide a supply of hot water so she can warm her back while in the pool. These outlets are not for massage.

The spillover spa is another "conversation space" and will provide heat and massage to the occupants.

For parties, the wife wants to be able to have heat coming out of the outlets (eyeball) at the pool seating areas and the spa simultaneously.

The waterfall is on it's own pump so it does not impact any of this design.


I'm thinking the outlets at the seating areas can be tied in with (or replace) the pool returns. The outlets are across from the skimmers and would push water toward the skimmers.

The spillover spa will be plumbed for two pumps. One of the loops in the spillover will be plumbed into the pool's plumping. It will be like having an additional return and drain. They just happen to be in the spillover spa. These pipes will be plumped with the smallest diameter piping that allows for adequate filtration of the spa (450 gallons). The only purpose of this loop is filtration (turnover) of the water in the spa. Instead of smaller piping, valves could be used to control the flow of water to/from the spillover. This, however, would require dedicated lines from the equipment pad to/from the spa.

The second spillover spa loop will be tied to a dedicated pump and heater.

The pool will have its own pump, filter, and SWG.

I'm attracted to this setup because there is no "pool mode" or "spa mode".
The options with this configuration are:
Pool Filter - on/off
Pool Heater - on/off
Spa Pump - on/off
Spa Heater - on/off

The spillover will only be used when the pool is open (we live in southern PA).
We will have a portable spa away from the pool area that we will use in the months when the pool/spillover are closed.

Spa/Pool interaction combination will be:

1. Pool filter on / spa pump on (no heat on either) (dog days of summer)
2. Pool filter on / spa pump and heater on (I'm thinking the small amount of cool water from the pool will be "overwhelmed" by the large amount of heated water coming from the spa heater).
3. Pool filter and heater on / spa pump on (a very rare occurrence... spa gets a little heat)
4. Pool filter and heater on / spa pump and heater on (party time!!!)
5. Pool filter off / spa pump and heater on (While the pool is not isolated there would be no flow to/from the pool....unless there is siphoning or something going on).

When using the heater in the spa but not the pool.....
If the impact of the non-heated water from the pool filtering is minimal then I would think scenario 2 would be the most common.
If the impact is not minimal then scenario 5 is the backup.

I could add a filter and have two separate systems. I like the idea of one system because there is only one system to maintain, but if there are compelling reasons to make this two separate systems....I'm open to that configuration.

Comments appreciated.

 

[bigdav160]

I believe you're over thinking this.
I expect to do the same thing in my pool/spa with much less plumbing and equipment. The key is the valve plumbing at the pad.

BTW, I have two 2" lines (jets and bypass) to run my 8ft spa spill over.

 

[wpbucher]

I have two issues. I don't want automation and I don't want my teenagers messing with valves. We have two teenagers and two more kids that will soon be teenagers. Thus, I'm willing to accept more plumbing/equipment for simplicity of use.

 

[Stevereno]

Automation is your friend.

When we want to use our Spa, we turn on the PDA, select Spa Mode - the valves line up to direct all flow into the Spa, then the pump turns on. Select Heater On and set the temperature (or accept what it was last time). Later when the water reaches temp, turn on the blower from the Spa instead of walking to the control box. When we are ready to go back to Pool Mode, just select that on the PDA and the valves rotate back to that position. Pool and Spa lights plus the waterfall (separate pump) can be turned on/off with the PDA. Colors / color sequences for the LED lights in the pool can be set from the PDA as well.

No fuss, no muss! Teenagers wouldn't need to mess with valves and using the PDA would be second nature to them.

 

[pool_snob]

I totally agree with 2 previous posters.

I'm willing to accept more plumbing/equipment for simplicity of use.

You got it backwards. Simplicity of use decreases with additional plumbing and/or equipment. Particularly without automation.

 

[mas985]

Why are you so set against automation? Besides making things easier, automation can also prevent incorrect valve settings which could damage the pump.

 

[wpbucher]

Given the constraint in the original post of:
"For parties, the wife wants to be able to have heat coming out of the outlets (eyeball) at the pool seating areas and the spa simultaneously."

Seems like this constraint requires me to be in "pool mode" and "spa mode" at the same time....with two pumps running...but I thought you could not have two pumps "in the same loop".

So I guess my question is: How would this get plumbed using automation?

 

[mas985]

With two pumps, I would dedicate one loop to the spa jets only without the filter or heater. You don't want high flow rates through either the heater or the filter. This will get the maximum flow rate out of the pump without having to oversize the pump so your jets will provide a good massage. There is nothing worse than weak jets. This pump will likely be the larger of the two pumps to get the high flow rate.

When in the spa, most people want the water hot so to do that you will need to isolate the heater on to the spa at least until it gets to a desired temperature. At that point, you can then switch over to pool only mode and draw from the pool, heat the returns without affecting the spa. The spa jets are on a separate loop so they are completely independent. When the spa cools off, and it does take a while, you can always switch back for a few minutes to get temperature up. This is going to be the only way to get the water temp into the 100s quickly.

So to meet all of your needs, I would use a variant of this configuration:

This setup requires a 3-way valve on both the suction side and return sides between the pool and spa. The valve labeled as spa make-up can be used for your pool and spa together model. So the valve configurations would be:

Pool Only: Suction 3-way to pool, return 3-way to pool, 2-way bypass off
Spa Only: Suction 3-way to spa, return 3-way to spa, 2-way bypass off
Spa Spillover: Suction 3-way to pool, return 3-way to spa, 2-way bypass off
Spa & Pool: Suction 3-way to pool, return 3-way to pool, 2-way bypass on

So the bypass only needs to be on when you want the heat to go to both the spa and the pool. Optionally, each of the three valves can have an actuator with controller. Normally a controller can easily handle the first three modes. The forth can be handled by a second valve control button.

[edit] - Added the picture with the jet pump.

 

[jblizzle]

So the bypass only needs to be on when you want the heat to go to both the spa and the pool.

Correct me if I am wrong ... but in this mode you would have full suction from the pool (cold water) and returning the "heated" water to the pool and the spa. Isn't it likely that this "heated" water is actually colder than what is currently in the spa if it is already up to temperature?

Just not sure that would work if you were just trying to top off the heat. Might help to initially start to heat the spa. Your description before the picture made more sense to me (switching both the suction and returns to the spa temporarily to boost the spa back up).

Or there could be a balancing act to adjust how much water you are sucking from the pool and spa (at high temp) and returning to both to achieve a perpetual temperature in the spa, returning warmer water to the pool, AND preventing the spa from draining ... but I imagine that would be tricky to dial in.

 

[mas985]

Correct me if I am wrong ... but in this mode you would have full suction from the pool (cold water) and returning the "heated" water to the pool and the spa. Isn't it likely that this "heated" water is actually colder than what is currently in the spa if it is already up to temperature?

Yes that is true but I wasn't suggesting operating that way. I was suggesting operating in one of two heating modes:

1 - Alternate heating between the spa and pool. This will allow for much higher spa temperatures but it requires switching the valves back and forth.

2 - Heat both the spa and the pool at the same time. In this mode, pool water will be heated and returned to both the pool and spa so the spa will not be able to reach the same temperature as #1.

The configuration allows for either mode but for #2, it doesn't make sense to pre-heat the spa or you would just waste a lot of heat.

 

[wpbucher]

So a heater and a high flow pump don't go together. That makes my design impractical. Thanks for the education. TFP is awesome!!!

A couple of more questions:

1. When in filter mode, will water enter the spa via the spa make up valve and spillover into the pool? Is this adequate for filtration? Or should some water leave the spa via the spa drain?

2. How do you control the flow of water through the spa jets? In other words, how do you control how "hard" the spa jets hit you with this configuration? I can hear the wife now, "The jets are too rough. Turn then down."

 

[mas985]

1. Yes this is perfectly adequate for filtration and that is the way I have done it for the last 7 years. The spa drain will get used when the spa is in isolation mode but it isn't necessary to run it that way every day. However, if you go the controller/actuator route, you can set up the controller to run the spa in spa mode everyday if you like.

2. Most spas do not have flow rate controls but there are a few of options:

A- Put a throttling valve on the spa jet return pipe that can be adjusted but this is not a very efficient way to control flow rate.

B - Put a bypass with a valve between the spa lower returns (i.e. from the filter) and the spa jets. Then to lower the flow rate in the jets, you simply bypass the water to the spa returns instead. Those are usually plumbed near the spa floor so they might hit your feet but it will lower the pressure on your back.

C - Put spa side valves on the air line for each of the jets. Stand alone spas will do this to control the amount of air in the jet. The air is what gives the jet the pulsating feeling. Turning off the air will weaken the jet somewhat but not a lot because it is really the water that gives the jet strength.

D -Exchange the jet pump with a VS pump so you can have adjustment while maintaining efficiency but this would be a more expensive option.

Also, keep in mind that spa jets are usually separated so if the jets are too strong, one could just move in between the jets and get a much lighter massage.