Not Yet Trouble Free - Chemistry and Equipment Questions

[crustfan]

Hi,

My pool people set up my Hayward EcoStar and T-cell 15 to run at high speed (95%) for 5 hrs and low (50%) for 5 hrs at a chlorination rate of 95%. The last time the pool guy was here he tested with a strip and showed me everything was ok. Well he's been missing for the past two weeks and I just got my TF-100 today. A few days ago I stopped in the local pool store to get the water tested.

On Friday
Going from memory
ph 7.8
Chlorine 0
CH 200
TA 120
TDS 4000
CYA 20
Salt 2700

So he sold me some stabilizer and told me to add 6 lbs. I added half and figured I'd test it when I get my kit. I added a 40 lb bag of salt.

Today Wednesday I measured
pH - 8 or above, very red
Chlorine OTO 5 or above, very yellow
FC - 16ppm
CC - 1 ppm
CH - 170
TA - 160
CYA - 20 but hard to tell
Salt - 3000ppm

I flipped out at the chlorine level! I was shocked so went to the pool store and double-checked. They were using the Taylor reagents so I was interested to see how they compared and if I messed up the test.

ph - 8 or above, very red
Chlorine - their block is also red. Says 5 on the printout but that's probably because they don't do the drop test.
CH - Can't remember but theirs was nearly the same as mine 170
TA - mostly the same 160
CYA - They got 40
Salt - 3100

So he told me to add the rest of the CYA ~3.5 lbs and 6 cups of acid. I'm running the pool for 24hrs at 50% speed.

When I got home, I did the Chlorine drop test again and got the same number 16. This time I used two level spoons of reagent rather than I heaping spoon. And by the way, is the vial on the SpeedStir supposed to spin around itself? Sometimes I need to hold it down with my other hand.

I changed the swg chlorination level which was set at 95%. I dialed it down to 20%.

I also have some equipment questions.

How do I take advantage of the VSP and larger cell size (t-15 is for 40k, I have 15k gallons)? The way it was set up seems like there would hardly be any energy savings. What should my settings be? I've read that it's all trial and error, starting at 24hrs then working back. But can my equipment setup be ballparked? If the goal to turn over the water once a day, then why do we run the pump longer in the summer? As a test, I dialed in 35% for the speed and the flow meter said there was flow. However I kept it at 50% since I'm not really sure.

Also my VSP software is r1.02, Main revision is something like 2.65. I only have settings for a high speed (anywhere from 0 to 100%) and low (same). I thought there were more options like maybe 4 speeds (or more). The Hayward pump manual leaves alot to be desired. (I was reading the Pentair vsp manual for comparison and it seems better) The control panel manual says it's either an Aqua-Logic-P4 or PS4. Probably a P4 I think. The different models have something to do with 3 auto valves vs. 4. I think I have 3.

The EcoStar VSP at 95% is very loud. But there's also a high pitch vibration that I'm worried about. If I put my hand on the pump near the display it goes away. Is this expected since it's going at such a high rpm?

I'm also wondering if I need to install a check valve between the heater output and the salt cell. Something about chlorine backing up into the heater when the pump is off and corroding it. What kind (spring, flapper, etc.)? And should it be glued in or have what I think are called "headers" , plastic rings on each end so that it can be detached. I saw something called the Flowvis which is also a flow meter. Not sure if I need this though.

I'm also considering installing a zinc anode to protect the heater core. Pool tool 104-d seems to be a good choice. I've also read that one need only attach a zinc block to the bonding lug of the heater and put in moist soil but I'm not sure how this would work scientifically. I've only seen it mentioned on the boards here and cannot find an external reference. Though I do understand the process of a galvanic cell and can picture the electrochemical circuit of wet end of zinc anode to salt water to cathode of steel in heat exchanger (chemical part of reaction) to heater chassis to heater bonding lug to copper wire back to dry end of zinc anode (electrical part of reaction).

I also had alot of back and forth with a Raypak rep over email. He said he recommends the Pooltool, that a check valve is a must have, and the TDS max for salt water pools is 6000ppm. I've read on here that TDS doesn't really matter but it doesn't hurt to know what they think. I had a tough time interpreting their manual which says "In salt water chlorinated pools, the TDS may be as high a 6000ppm." I didn't know if it was a specification or a warning. I also read some Hayward and Pentair heater manuals which don't mention TDS.

I go on vacation in a week for a week so would like to get the chemistry and settings right asap. I'll need to worry about any installation issues afterward.

Thanks so much for your help. I enjoy the site very much. I'm looking forward to trouble free Nirvana.

 

[UN1017]

One thing you know for sure is that your SWG is working. There is a bit of trial and error on the setting but I could tell you that my SWG and pool size are about the same specs. I run my single speed pump for 6 hours and and the SWG is set at 40% resulting in a very consistent FC of 4.

I would trust your test results over the pool store now. A little practice will make it easier.

Anyway, I would leave the CYA alone for now, shut off the SWG to get down to your target FC and then retest your pH. Then make final adjustments to everything else.

As far as the spinning vial goes, make sure it is dry on the bottom. Mine spins if I leave get in moisture between the base and the vial.

I'm sure the resident experts will be able to shed some light on your other issues.

 

[imwarren]

CC of 1. Shows you need to do a shock process
See poolschollfor full instructio
Basic
Get fc at shock level per pool calc
Keep it at that level consistantly (check hourly at first)

Done with process after the following

Water is clear
CC is less then 1
Pass an overnight chlorine loss test

 

[duraleigh]

Crustfan,

Your pool is already at shock value and has probably been so for several days. The CC result of 1ppm is a source of concern so I would monitor it daily and see if it goes to .5ppm or less. Do you cover the pool?

Yes, the vial will spin sometimes and you have to hold it.

 

[crustfan]

I don't cover the pool.

Looks like I should have opted for the TF-100 XL option

 

[duraleigh]

Perform an OCLT test tonight (see how in Pool School). Then, when you complete the OCLT test in the AM, do another CC test and post your results.

 

[crustfan]

OCLT results

Thursday evening ~ 7:30pm
CL very orange ie > 5
pH about 7.5
FC 18.5
CC .5
TC 19
TA 130
CH 180
CYA 40

Friday morning, 7:20pm
FC 16
CC .5 It was pretty clear to start with and I'm not sure the 1 drop changed the color. So does that mean it's less than .5?

Looks like the chlorine was working on something. Btw both my dog and the neighbor's have bacterial skin infections and are now on antibiotics.

I had the swg running at 20% for 24hrs at low speed from Wed afternoon/evening to Thursday evening, so I guess that's why the FC went from 16 to 18.5. Which is useful I think in dialing in some settings for time and %. It's making at least 2.5, maybe a little more in 24hrs. I think if I set it to 9 hours and 50% it'll be close to maintaining a FC of 4 ppm? But for today I set the pump to run 9 hrs and the swg at 0%.

So I'm thinking in 24hrs the FC should be at normal levels and all the CC's gone.

 

[Bama Rambler]

If those numbers were an OCLT, you failed. Losing 2.5 ppm overnight means you need to keep it at shock level. Don't let it get below shock level until you pass unequivocally. That's less than .5 ppm CC, 1 ppm FC loss or less, and the water is clear.

 

[crustfan]

OK I set the chlorinator to 95% for the rest of the day.

The water does look clear.

I think I want to add 1/2 bag of salt. The readout says 3000ppm but Instant salt is 2900ppm. Hayward recommends 3200.

I'm also a little confused by the PoolSchool recommendations for SWG's vs Hayward's. Especially in FC, TA, and salt level.

To summarize:
FC 3-5 ppm, Hayward is 1-3
PH 7.5-7.8, Hayward 7.2-7.6
TA 60-80, Hayward 80-120
CH 250-350 for plaster, Hayward 200-400
CYA 70-80, Hayward 60-80
Salt 200-400 ppm ABOVE recommended optimum level, Hayward 2700-3400 with 3200 optimal

 

[duraleigh]

Crustfan,

Stay focused on your shock process. Your only goal should be to keep the FC at or about 16ppm until you pass the OCLT.

If you read 6 publications, you may get 6 different methods of doing things. There is no better authority (brag, brag) on keeping your pool clean and clear and sanitary and going to the pool store and trying to blend in others information is only going to get you sidetracked during this learning process.

I suggest you maintain pool at shock level for Friday and Saturday and then perform OCLT again Saturday night.

Shocking with the SWG is not good practice and you may have your chlorine sky high by the time your dial it back down.

 

[Bama Rambler]

I'm also a little confused by the PoolSchool recommendations for SWG's vs Hayward's. Especially in FC, TA, and salt level.

To summarize:
FC 3-5 ppm, Hayward is 1-3
PH 7.5-7.8, Hayward 7.2-7.6
TA 60-80, Hayward 80-120
CH 250-350 for plaster, Hayward 200-400
CYA 70-80, Hayward 60-80
Salt 200-400 ppm ABOVE recommended optimum level, Hayward 2700-3400 with 3200 optimal

What is confusing you? Except for FC, everything else is pretty close. The general industry recommendation of 1-3 ppm FC is based on the water having zero cya.

 

[ping]

I'm not sure if you are running the SWG overnight or not, but do not run the SWG if you are performing an OCLT.

Don't worry about adding the salt to the water, the SWG is happy and making chlorine. Readings from test strips are +-200 at best and can vary a lot more than that. When ever you add any salt to the water you need to turn off the SWG for 24 hours to let the salt mix in so it does not overload the SWG while it is running.

 

[crustfan]

Since I'm already at shock level isn't it ok to use the SWG or do I have to. Pool School article on the shock process says "The SWG, tablet dispenser, or Liquidator can be very helpful in the follow up stages to maintain FC at shock level."

I don't run the SWG overnight since I want to measure the FC loss own it's own.

The recommended numbers confuse me because:
TA is a totally different range
The Hayward FC 1-3 recommendation would assume their own other requirement of CYA at 60-80 and not 0.
Salt of optimal 3200 plus the minimum TroubleFree recommendation of 200 puts it at Hayward's max.

 

[Bama Rambler]

The Pool School recommendations are from real world experience in thousands of installations. You'd think mfg's would run tests and recommend levels that work but they really don't.

 

[ping]

Since I'm already at shock level isn't it ok to use the SWG or do I have to. Pool School article on the shock process says "The SWG, tablet dispenser, or Liquidator can be very helpful in the follow up stages to maintain FC at shock level."

I don't run the SWG overnight since I want to measure the FC loss own it's own.

The recommended numbers confuse me because:
TA is a totally different range
The Hayward FC 1-3 recommendation would assume their own other requirement of CYA at 60-80 and not 0.
Salt of optimal 3200 plus the minimum TroubleFree recommendation of 200 puts it at Hayward's max.

The TA level recommeded here at TFP is a little lower than what Hayward has due to what works for a majority of pools. If you do not have issues with your ph rising at the level you keep your TA at, then leave the TA alone. The idea of the lower TA is that this level tends to help stabilize the pH for longer periods of time. With some pools the low pH still doesn't work due to high TA fill water and other issues.

The FC recommendation from Hayward and just about the entire pool industry just does not work in reality. Why is it taking the pool industry forever to use the latest information that has been learned is anyones guess. If you want a trouble free pool that is algae free and sanitary, then follow the FC/CYA guide in Pool School and you can not go wrong.

The salt ranges that you are quoting are not quite right. Hayward's optimal "SALT RANGE" is 2700-3400, but it will work with less salt and higher salt levels. My guess is that it will still work with salt levels between 2000-4500 but it will be "happiest" at 2700-3400.

About running the SWG during shocking is completely up to you. Most suggest to turn off the SWG and save it for daily use during normal operations. Also, you might forget to turn it off during an OCLT and not realize it and have to extend your shock process another day.

 

[crustfan]

Thanks to all for your info!

Each piece of equipment has their own specs, then there's TF, then Pinch-A-Penny, then whatever else. Trying to negotiate all of it is mind boggling. I didn't quite understand why some of the TF numbers are different so your explanation helps. So will they be teaching "traditional" in the CPO class I'll be taking next month?

I got the salt range from the TF recommendation page for swg's. TF says to have 200-400 above optimal. I got the optimal number from my Aqua Logic manual which says 3200 with a range of 2700-3400.

 

[crustfan]

Last night's #'s were

FC 20.5
CC .5, (very, very faint pink to start with)

This morning
FC 16.5
CC .5 , though it was very faint to begin with

So an overnight drop of 4ppm in FC means continue at shock level? How long is this supposed to take?

 

[duraleigh]

How long is this supposed to take?

Until your overnight loss is 1ppm or less.