Raypak RP 2100 heating problems

[bethalito]

The Raypak RP 2100 heater is causing problems.
The unit was installed in 1995. I have lived here since 2005 & have barely used it.
Problem: For last & this season: unit turned on when started, runs for a while (not sure how long, maybe a couple hours), then shuts down & will not start again.
The repairman was just here & he tested everything. It tested ok, but the ignitor kept clicking even when he had lit the pilot light manually. The burners would not come on even tho the pilot light was lit.

He says he thinks it is the control module (cost $200). If not that, it may be the gas control valve (few hundred dollars, has to check price. I know they are spendy).
Or possibly the burner tray.

There is also a fire scorch mark on the lower left of the front when the door is taken off. I don't recall that from the past, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there....

He said new units cost 3k+.

Any advice?
Thanks in advance.

 

[PoolGuyNJ]

If you have a pilot light, there is no electronic ignition or electrical connection.

If there was a back draft, the thermal fuse may be popped. It is a an off-white ceramic with a pair of wires attached and the fuse under it. Disconnect the wires and test with an ohm meter. 0 Ohms is good. Anything else is bad. The two main causes for this are a windy condition or the heat exchanger got sooted up and is preventing exhaust from escaping. This sometimes happen if the heater was not given any preventative maintenance at this age.

If the pilot is dirty, the flame may be high enough for the release of the pilot's gas (250 millivolts minimum) but for the pilot generator/thermocouple to tell the regulator there is a hot enough flame, 350 to 400 mv are needed. New pilot generators generally produce about 650 mv.

You will need a 3rd hand to hold the gas knob down since disconnecting the safety circuit will immediately put out the pilot. I usually use a small Quick Grip clamp.

If you hear the TIC TIC TIC TIC of a sparker in an electronic ignition model, the burner orifice may be clogged near the sparker. You would smell gas. It also indicates that the safety circuit is functioning.

It takes a tool called a manometer to determine if a regulator is shot. This measures gas pressures when the system is static and when it is in use. When in use, the gas pressure on the input side will drop some.

I have to wonder if the tech had heater training.

A 15 year old heater is old. Most this age will have rusted out.


Scott

 

[danpik]

a quick google search showed that these heaters came as both a milivolt system and conventional standing pilot/thermocouple system. We need to figure out which one you have.

This is a standard pilot/thermocouple system thermocouple. It has a copper colored tube that attaches to a port on the Gas Valve.

This is a milivolt Powerpile. Sometimes refered to as a power generator. It has two wires coming from the bottom of it, usually encased in a protective sheath, leading out and attached to the gas valve under two separate screws.

Can you tell us if it is one or the other of these systems?

 

[techguy]

IMHO, if the tech cannot determine if it's a control board or the gas valve, you need a better tech. I was not a tech but I sold parts for heaters for 10 years. The thermocouple or pile are the most likely suspect but this assumes the interior is clean and clear of obstructions. The gas valves operation can be tested easily.

 

[danpik]

I will second what Techguy said. The technician that you had out there was most likely the most senior pool store guy. Now, before everyone jumps down my throat, I do realize there are some very skilled pool shop guys out there. Unfortunaly in my area we have none. A heater I fixed last week was looked at by a pimply faced kid from the local pool store before I was called. He had the basic skills needed to light pilots and make sure the unit was plugged in. I don't blame him for the lack of knowledge as he has never been trained and probably never will be as the store has no-one that can work on these things. On this one, the burner was partialy corroded over and the flame sensor was not seeing flame when the burners lit. Simple job to fix. Anyway, as Techguy indicated it most likely is the themopile if this is a milivolt system. If it is an electronic ignition as I am reading from the OP's description then it is posible that the flame sensor is dirty or has a bad connection. More info is needed to figure this out.

A littly info about finding someone to fix these things for less handy people. If you do not have a pool store that has a good tech dept then look into a furnace repair shop. Pool heaters are no different in operation than houshold boilers and in some cases are simpler in operation. All the same parts are used as far as igniters, control boards, powerpiles etc and sometimes if not most they are cheaper. A couple examples come to mind. I recently replaces a rollout sensor on a pool heater. My cast at the local supply house was $4.00. Just for kicks I looked up the same sensor on the heater manufacturers site and foud it was north of $30.00. That same site had powerpiles for it's heaters listed for over $50.00. The same powerpile cost me $19.95 at my local supply house

 

[techguy]

One option for technicians is the "old guy" that has been working on the heaters in MOBILE HOMES or RVs. Many have heaters that are millivolt systems and are in outside compartments like the pool heater. Millivolt systems are some of the oldest heater technologies. They are used to seeing critters, rust and leaves inside the heater.

 

[ps0303]

Check out this page on Raypak and see if there is a repair company by you. http://www.raypak.com/PoolandSpaSales.aspx Yes I know it's an old heater not under warranty but as long as it's not the same company you had out, you might be able to get it fixed or find some other company close by that can come by and check it out.

One thing to consider is the overall condition of the unit. As said by someone else, if it's all rusted out inside it might not be worth putting any money into it. You make that call though.

 

[bethalito]

Lots of info. Thanks! I'm going to attach some photos so you can see the condition. [attachment=2:31u896rn]front.JPG[/attachment:31u896rn] See that scorch mark on the lower left. Any ideas?
The manual says it is a millivolt system and it looks like a millivolt system in the photo.[attachment=0:31u896rn]gas valve.JPG[/attachment:31u896rn]
There is rust, but the heater is in a shed & not exposed to direct weather.
As for the repairman, he's coming back out today with a used unit to see if it is the part he suspects.
I'll talk to him about his training and all the other info that you have given me. There are also heating companies close by that work on Raypak.
TechGuy, how do you easily test the gas valve?

 

[techguy]

I prefer to let a professional do it. It involves applying different voltages to different terminals in the proper sequence. Gas valves are part of a sequence of events and certain things need to happen in the correct order to allow the valve to open to the main burners. The trouble shooting guide shows the sequence for that unit. With the correct tools and sequsence you "override the safety" essentially but it is dangerous if you do it incorrectly.

 

[ps0303]

Well it's not rusted out like I have seen many others. I suspect the rust is from condensation. However, that burn spot to the left side makes me question that burner over there. Once you get it lit you will be able to see what's happening. Hope it's not a pin hole in the manifold.

 

[techguy]

I didn't see the roll-out there. Glad there looks to be a roll-out switch right there. Wonder how long the burn mark has been there?

 

[bethalito]

....Then I turned to page 2, talking about units with auto ignition. I vaguely remember just turning it on a couple years ago & it fired right up.

I also opened up the front panel & took a photo of the control module[attachment=0:3dk8eddj]control module.JPG[/attachment:3dk8eddj].
When power is turned on, I hear it tic,tic,tic very rapidly & I could see it arcing. The red wire was not attached (assuming the repairman took it off to test). When I reattached the red wire, I could hear rapid ticking down lower near the gas valve.
...I just went back out to see if I could find out exactly where it was making that ticking noise. Reattached the wire, turned on the power & it fired up. Full burning across the burners. Nice blue flame. I'll watch to see how long it stays on for.

 

[danpik]

With that, I would say the gas valve is good. I rarely if ever see them sometimes work sometimes not work. I would suspect that there is a flame sensor in the pilot assembly or burner assembly that is not getting good flame contact. that causes it to go out after a while. In the picture that shows the scorch mark there is a bracket hanging down under the right side of the gas valve. That looks like the pilot/ignitor assembly. Can you get a picture of the back side of that where the pilot flame is. I suspect I know what I will see but want to verify it.

 

[ps0303]

If you hear a ticking sound before it lights, it's not a millivolt system.

 

[bethalito]

The heater ran all night & the pool is a comfortable 82.
I turned it off & turned it back on again. It came on. Left it off for a few minutes, turned it on, heard the ticking sound from the ignitor area, jiggled wires and flame came on with burners following.
I also tried gently blowing towards the ignitor ( which I could see, sparking away). That got the flame on quickly.
Here is a photo of the front where I removed the ignitor wire bracket:[attachment=2:3arak62h]DSCF5802.JPG[/attachment:3arak62h]
Here is a photo looking up at the pilot flame:[attachment=1:3arak62h]good image.JPG[/attachment:3arak62h] This is the best image.
Here is a photo looking down at the pilot flame:[attachment=0:3arak62h]from above.JPG[/attachment:3arak62h]

Are you thinking it might be the pilot flame assembly?

 

[danpik]

Are you thinking it might be the pilot flame assembly?

Not any more. I am thinking it is dirty burner tubes that are plugged up near the igniter. You may need to pull them out and wire brush them

 

[ps0303]

Your second picture of the ignitor area shows its age. shows quite a bit of rust. If you decide to take it apart to clean, it could self destruct so be careful.

 

[bethalito]

Is it easy to pull the burner tubes out to clean? Does the ignitor have to come out as well?

 

[ps0303]

It's actually a burner tray that holds all of the burners. You can see where the manifold connects tot he gas valve, that's what needs to be disconnected along with the ingitor wire that plugs into the board up top. It then slides out.

 

[bethalito]

Just a follow up note. It turned out to be the circuit board. A friend & I tested all the other components & they worked fine. When we got to the circuit board, it proved unreliable. I've seen some of the older boards on ebay & craigslist for anywhere from $90. to $180. Think I'll try to pick one up to see if it solves the problem.
Thanks for all your help & advice.