New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Question

[Scoop]

Hi, all. New to the forum and to self-chemical maintenance. Most of my info is in my Sig.

I started treating my own pool about a month ago. I had been using a chemical maintenance Co for many years, with mostly good results but I've always been planning on handling my own chemical treatments in my pool. Recently, my Pool Chem Svc Co hired an inexperienced technician (who is no longer with the Co) and he apparently made some mistakes with my pool's chemical svc. For the 1st time in many years, Algae began appearing in the pool along with green water. To be brief, I dropped the Chem Svc Co and obtained the help of a friend that has been maintaining his own IG gunite pool.

I had the water mostly under control before my friend helped me with some basics and I also have been reading up on Pool Chemical info via the 'net.

After getting the water chemicals under control, along with performing a complete D.E. Filter cleanup, the pool is in good shape, as far as I can see.

I'm testing for Chlorine, pH daily, & AL, CH, CYA less frequently for a while to establish a baseline for my pool's chemical maintenance requirements.

Here's some of my test #'s during recent testing:

FC: Testing daily. This will vary and I have a question about this in the next paragraph, but it's usually starting out somewhere in the 5+ range the next day after I "shock" with 12 Oz Calcium Hypochlorite 68% granules. I'm using that amount based on the product's Mfg recommendations for my pool size (15kG), and in conjunction with my Leslie's (OEM:Taylor) kit's chart recommendations for weekly shocking amounts.

So far, I've not seen CC readings, all zero (that's good, right?). My weekly FC readings will slowly decrease, beginning a day after "shocking", to about 2ppm FC. The next day, my next weekly "shock" will be added. I'm also using (weekly) two 3" Trichloro 99% tablets in a Floater. The product recommendation is for 1 tablet per 10Kg pool so I went with 2 for a while to track the results in my pool.

pH: Testing daily. 7.5 I've added Muriatic Acid twice since June, to reduce pH. It's holding at 7.5 for now but I have seen the pH climb slowly since I have started performing my own chemical maintenance. I read some 'net info about "ph Bounce", etc so I'm learning about how to maintain pH in target for a longer period of time.

AL: It usually tests between 80-100. I added Baking Soda once, to raise it back up after a treatment of Muriatic Acid (ph lower).

CYA: I have tested it twice since the initial testing done at Leslie's. My results are 70-80.

Calcium Hardness: I've tested it twice. It's around 300 . This one's hard for me to be precise, detecting when the Reagent color result changes in the test tube. However, I had it tested at Leslie's with about the same results.

I have 2 questions:

1) So far, I don't see how to maintain a day-in, day-out, FC level of 2-4 since "shocking" will spike the FC level and the results of the spike can be seen for almost a week. How does one maintain a daily FC level of 2-4? I'm also using two 3" Trichloro 99% teblets per week in a Floater.

2) Is there a product available that will lower Calcium Hardness in a pool? I've been reading the "Pool School" info and it would appear that at some point, when using my Chlorine shock product, that I'll have to reduce my C.H. level.

I read about a product called "Caltreat" (OEM: United Chemical) that's supposed to lower the C.H. levels in pools. Has anyone used this product for this purpose in their pool? Does it affect other pool chemical parameters?

 

[linen]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

Welcome to tfp, scoop

So far, I've not seen CC readings, all zero (that's good, right?). My weekly FC readings will slowly decrease, beginning a day after "shocking", to about 2ppm FC. The next day, my next weekly "shock" will be added. I'm also using (weekly) two 3" Trichloro 99% tablets in a Floater. The product recommendation is for 1 tablet per 10Kg pool so I went with 2 for a while to track the results in my pool.

First, you need to stop using the trichlor since your cya levels are already high. See this pool school article for chlorine source recommendations: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/types_chlorine_pool

The approach taught on here is to maintain daily to keep at least a minimum amount of FC in the pool at all times.

You also want to slow down/stop using the cal-hypo since your calcium levels are ideal right now. Bleach/liquid chlorine is your best choice at this point.

2) Is there a product available that will lower Calcium Hardness in a pool? I've been reading the "Pool School" info and it would appear that at some point, when using my Chlorine shock product, that I'll have to reduce my C.H. level.

I read about a product called "Caltreat" (OEM: United Chemical) that's supposed to lower the C.H. levels in pools. Has anyone used this product for this purpose in their pool? Does it affect other pool chemical parameters?

Your calcium is not bad now, our recommended level is 250- [s:128mtg2i]250[/s:128mtg2i] 350 for plaster pools. See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/recommended_levels.

Skip the caltreat...see this post: http://www.troublefreepool.com/trying-caltreat-t43236.html

 

[Scoop]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

Welcome to tfp, scoop

First, you need to stop using the trichlor since your cya levels are already high. See this pool school article for chlorine source recommendations: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/types_chlorine_pool

The approach taught on here is to maintain daily to keep at least a minimum amount of FC in the pool at all times.

You also want to slow down/stop using the cal-hypo since your calcium levels are ideal right now. Bleach/liquid chlorine is your best choice at this point.

Your calcium is not bad now, our recommended level is 250-250 for plaster pools. See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/recommended_levels.

Skip the caltreat...see this post: http://www.troublefreepool.com/trying-caltreat-t43236.html

Thanks for the info . Let me see if I am following you here:

If I follow your recommendations, discontinue the trichlor tablets, and switch to liquid Chlorine, will that maintain a constant FC level of 2-4?

I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of "shocking" weekly. Is it supposed to raise the FC amount about 10ppm above the target point temporarily? Then the pool FC will level off to 2-4 day-to-day until daily testing reveals a level below 2, then it's time to "shock" with liquid Chlorine again?

Without a constant Chlorinator, either a Floater with tablets, or an injector, how is it possible to maintain a daily FC level of 2-4?

Thanks for the "Caltreat" info. I had read some things elsewhere that seemed to indicate that this approach wasn't too succesful in doing what the product claims to do.

[edit] I looked at the Chlorine / CYA chart and it's indicating that, in order to achieve what many people are told is the ideal FC range (2-4), my CYA level needs to be 30 (non-SWG). Since my current CYA level is between 70-80, I should be targeting a FC level of 8-9. I guess this pool chemical maintenance is more complicated than a lot of people are told.

For example, I thought that my pool would be considered "good" if I had a CYA anywhere within the range of 30-99 and maintained a FC range of 2-4.

"Light Bulb" time (maybe) :-D Check me here, and see if I have this relationship to "shocking" and maintaining the desired daily FC level.

- Current CYA level is 70 .
- When my pool FC level drops below 5, or measures less than 2 in a daily FC test, it's time to shock.
- Depending on my current CYA level, I apply the recommended amount of Chlorine product to raise the FC level to "shock" level. Ie, if my CYA level is 70 when it's time to shock, I add the necessary amount of Chlorine to achieve a level of 28.
- Testing daily after my "shock" day, I will then add the necessary amount of Chlorine to maintain a level of 8 (if the CYA remains at 70) when my post-shock FC effect depletes to below 5 .

 

[linen]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

If I follow your recommendations, discontinue the trichlor tablets, and switch to liquid Chlorine, will that maintain a constant FC level of 2-4?

For a cya of 80, your FC range should be 6 ppm minimum all times with a target of 9 ppm. See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock

Yes liquid chlorine or bleach put in the pool everyday to keep it at that level.

For example, I thought that my pool would be considered "good" if I had a CYA anywhere within the range of 30-99 and maintained a FC range of 2-4.

Join the club, many people have been told that, and it hasn't worked for many people.

Your calcium is not bad now, our recommended level is 250-250 for plaster pools.

I made a type in my previous post the recommended level should be 250-350 ppm CH for plaster pools.

 

[Scoop]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

If I follow your recommendations, discontinue the trichlor tablets, and switch to liquid Chlorine, will that maintain a constant FC level of 2-4?

For a cya of 80, your FC range should be 6 ppm minimum all times with a target of 9 ppm. See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock

Yes liquid chlorine or bleach put in the pool everyday to keep it at that level.

For example, I thought that my pool would be considered "good" if I had a CYA anywhere within the range of 30-99 and maintained a FC range of 2-4.

Join the club, many people have been told that, and it hasn't worked for many people.

Your calcium is not bad now, our recommended level is 250-250 for plaster pools.

I made a type in my previous post the recommended level should be 250-350 ppm CH for plaster pools.

I just read your reply as I was editing my earlier post. Thanks. I think I have an understanding of the relationship between "shocking" and daily or "as-needed" Chlorine treatments.

[edit] Is there a test kit that can measure FC levels as high as 28? The Taylor K-2006 kit doesn't measure beyond FC of 5, right? So I just need to use the online Pool Calculator to tell me how much Chlorine to add to achieve the "shock" level?

 

[linen]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

The taylor K-2006 does measure up to 50 ppm using the FAS-DPD test. The test you are referring to that only goes up to 5 ppm is probably the DPD test which I think is also in the K-2006.

So I just need to use the online Pool Calculator to tell me how much Chlorine to add to achieve the "shock" level?

Yep, make sure you put your volume in up top and your current cya level, and make the appropriate selections in the "Suggested Goal Levels" section. Use "troublefreepool", bleach, and plaster for the selections in that section.

 

[Scoop]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

The taylor K-2006 does measure up to 50 ppm using the FAS-DPD test. The test you are referring to that only goes up to 5 ppm is probably the DPD test which I think is also in the K-2006.

So I just need to use the online Pool Calculator to tell me how much Chlorine to add to achieve the "shock" level?

Yep, make sure you put your volume in up top and your current cya level, and make the appropriate selections in the "Suggested Goal Levels" section. Use "troublefreepool", bleach, and plaster for the selections in that section.

Thanks, I forgot about the "powder" FC test in that Taylor Kit.

After looking at the CYA / Chlorine chart, it appears that "less is more" regarding CYA. We're better off having a lower CYA level present in our pools.

I read this regarding the Pool Calculator: "It is also possible to make a local copy of the Pool Calculator web page, and use it without an Internet connection."

I haven't figured out a way to copy the Pool Calculator to my PC. How is that done? I'm running Windows 7 with IE9 on my PC.

 

[Isaac-1]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

Ok, here go a few analogies and some straight forward thoughts:

1, shocking weekly is a common method of dealing with a poorly maintained pool (sort of like the idea of taking a course of antibiotics every few months if your sick or not in case you have some silent infection, on the surface it this may seem like a good idea, but in reality there are problems with it) , many of us around here rarely shock, going sometimes years between need to shock, when we do shock it is based on need like a major storm blowing lots of junk into the pool, or going several days without circulation due to a failed pool pump, etc.

2, You need to read pool school, go to the top right hand corner of any page here and click, the KEY to the BBB method that is taught here is understanding the effects of chemicals on your pool.

3, There are no magic cures, although there are some things that will make maintaining a pool easier, one of the key requirements is regular testing with a good test kit (you seem to have a fairly good one now, but we need to find out if it has any shortcomings and may need a couple of additional single item tests added)

4, Don't mix and match advice, this is a recipe for disaster, sort of like the saying about too many cooks in the kitchen.

5, stop using the stabilized chlorine (dichlor and trichlor), your CYA level is already on the top of the maintainable level, in fact you probably need to drain about half your water to get down to the ideal level.

6, stop using cal-hypo you are still in the good range for CH, but much more and you will be too high there too.

7, switch to using bleach/liquid chlorine, of the common chlorine sources it has the least negative side effects with the main byproduct being salt where the acceptable (perhaps even desired) levels can be in the thousands of ppm.

8, If you don't want the hassle of having to manually dose your pool with liquid chlorine/bleach every day look into getting a chlorine injection pump system or salt water generator.

9, Once you get everything stabilized and you get to know your pool, you will likely be able to drop swim season testing of chlorine to maybe 2 or 3 times per week, and if your lucky pH to once a week, and the others to about once per month.

10, once you let this sink in read pool school again.

Ike

 

[linen]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

After looking at the CYA / Chlorine chart, it appears that "less is more" regarding CYA. We're better off having a lower CYA level present in our pools.

CYA is a two edge sword...one edge protects your chlorine from the suns uv rays which is good, the other edge is it takes a higher FC level to stay algae free, and if you do get algae, it can take a lot more chlorine to kill it off. The suggested levels for cya and FC are picked to minimize overall chlorine usage while still being able to maintain a minimum amount of chlorine during the sunny portion of the day without having to dose every hour...for most pools.

I read this regarding the Pool Calculator: "It is also possible to make a local copy of the Pool Calculator web page, and use it without an Internet connection."

I haven't figured out a way to copy the Pool Calculator to my PC. How is that done? I'm running Windows 7 with IE9 on my PC.

For me (firefox) I just do a "save page as". Frogabog had instructions her for someone else having trouble doing this.http://www.troublefreepool.com/i-ma...l-is-smarter-than-i-am-t44884-20.html#p373955

 

[Scoop]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

^ Linen,

for the info. I was able to save the "Pool Calculator" on my PC. I have to click a prompt to "allow blocked content" when my IE9 browser launches to use the Calculator but I think that's the browser's way to allow Javascript to run for the Calculator function.

I see now why there are so many pool owners that have problems with this chemical maintenance task. When I first started to google for info back in June, before taking over my own chemical maint., I read a lot of posts describing pool water problems.

This is the first site that I've seen that explains the interactions and "cause/effect" of the different pool chemical parameters in a way that makes sense to me. The CYA-to-Chlorine relationship is one part that I didn't understand before finding this forum.

^ Ike,

for the tips. I have read the Pool School but as you mentioned, I'll need to re-read it to digest this info. As a first-time pool self-maintenance (Chemical part) guy, there's a lot of into to consider.

#1. I think I understand this "shock" stuff now. I'd always been told that it's necessary to shock the pool weekly but I see now that this is one of the myths that is widespread at other sites and pool stores.

I like your #4 tip as I've seen a lot of conflicting information at other sites about this pool chemical maint picture.

I think I'll get that Taylor K-2006 kit as my kit is ok for a starter mid-level kit but it can't measure FC levels higher than 5 .

Y'all have a

from Dallas

 

[linen]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

I think I'll get that Taylor K-2006 kit as my kit is ok for a starter mid-level kit but it can't measure FC levels higher than 5 .

Many of us on here prefer that TF-100...more bang for the buck than the stock K-2006. Either way, consider adding a speedstir. Dave (duraleigh) sells both kit and the speedstirs at tftestkits.net

 

[Scoop]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

Many of us on here prefer that TF-100...more bang for the buck than the stock K-2006. Either way, consider adding a speedstir. Dave (duraleigh) sells both kit and the speedstirs at tftestkits.net

Thanks for the tip. I might get the TF-100 kit vs the K-2006. I'll look at both and decide soon.

Speedstir, sounds like a good recommendation. I looked at a couple of sites and it appears that the Speedstir sold at tftestkits.net is the same as the ones that I'm seeing at the Taylor site and Amazon. Taylor Speedstir part # 9265 . Is that correct?

If I'm understanding this Speedstir kit right, it's compatible with my Leslie's (OEM: Taylor but I don't know the Taylor part #) kit? I see that the Speedstir comes with a test vial. I'm just wanting to verify that the vial in the Speedstir Kit is incrimented the same as the vials in the Taylor kits, ie "10 ml", "20 ml", etc, so that I can use the vial in the Speedstir list instead of the one that is included in the Leslie's Kit.

CYA testing: Is it universal that all of these test kits use the same method for the CYA test? Mine uses a small test tube, where I look into it from the top while adding the premixed solution until the black dot at the bottom of the test tube just disappears.

That test is a little subjective to me but my tests are close to the local Leslie's test when I compare results.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

The link in my signature shows the comparison of the test kits. You can see how much more reagents are included in the TF100.

Yes. The Speedstir is the same. And all the vials should be interchangeable.

Yes. All the CYA tests are the same. Some use a larger tube and one version has a sliding dot, but they all involve having the dot disappear.

Posted with Tapatalk ... sorry if I sound short ... hate typing on phone

 

[Isaac-1]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

One of the things about the CYA test, lighting conditions are important, it is best done outside with the sun to your back while holding the tube shaded by your body at waist level. (I am not sure how the typical pool store can reliably duplicate this sort lighting condition indoors, perhaps that is why their CYA test are so notoriously often incorrect)

Ike

p.s. I too prefer the TF-100 as it gives you more of the reagents you use the most, where the K-2006 gives neat looking equal size bottles for all that fit neatly into the box, but does it really make sense to you to buy a kit where you use 5 drops or reagent A and then 15-20 drops or more of reagent B each time you run the test, yet they are both in the same size bottles?

 

[Scoop]

Re: New to Pool Chemical maintenance - Calcium Hardness Ques

The link in my signature shows the comparison of the test kits. You can see how much more reagents are included in the TF100.

Yes. The Speedstir is the same. And all the vials should be interchangeable.

Yes. All the CYA tests are the same. Some use a larger tube and one version has a sliding dot, but they all involve having the dot disappear.

Posted with Tapatalk ... sorry if I sound short ... hate typing on phone

Thanks. I checked my Leslie's Kit and it uses the same vial part # as the Speedstir pkg.

CYA, thanks also for the info. I was wondering about it since the black dot disappearing point is sometimes hard to determine, exactly when that dot disappears from view.

One of the things about the CYA test, lighting conditions are important, it is best done outside with the sun to your back while holding the tube shaded by your body at waist level. (I am not sure how the typical pool store can reliably duplicate this sort lighting condition indoors, perhaps that is why their CYA test are so notoriously often incorrect)

Ike

p.s. I too prefer the TF-100 as it gives you more of the reagents you use the most, where the K-2006 gives neat looking equal size bottles for all that fit neatly into the box, but does it really make sense to you to buy a kit where you use 5 drops or reagent A and then 15-20 drops or more of reagent B each time you run the test, yet they are both in the same size bottles?

More good info, thanks. I have been looking down into the CYA test tube from about 6 in or maybe 1 foot max so I'll try it at waist level at the sun/shade orientation that you mentioned.

Reagent sizes, I see what you mean about that part. I used up my 1st .75 Oz CYA bottle today, Taylor R-0013. I looked at replacement sizes at Amazon today and they sell a 16 Oz CYA Reagent Refill size. I might get that one.

Still thinking about the next Test Kit purchase. I ordered that Taylor Speedstir #9265 yesterday.