Multiple questions, fried pump and replumbing

[dickeystorm]

Hi All,

My main pump motor finally fried. Literally, it was a mini 4th of July - sparks and smoke out the back side. The casing is rusted pretty bad and the pump is of an unknown vintage, make and model. I have limited time to research pumps so I would greatly appreciate some guidance. In addition to replacing the pump I am going to re-plumb the system to correct the 4 or 5 leaks I know of. The current pump is a 1.5hp 1.3 SF A.O. Smith motor. The pool is 25000 gallon IG plaster with a spa. There are 4 return jets in the main side of the pool and 5 in the spa, 1 skimmer and 1 main drain on the main side and 2 floor drains on the spa side. I have always felt the returns were weak but I'm not sure what they should feel like. The flow from 3 of the 4 main jets is a gentle flow. I do not use the spa as a spa (health reasons) and the heater doesn't work anyway. I am strongly considering removing the heater from the circuit.

Question 1. Can someone point me in the right direction, recommendations etc.? I have read the pool school pump basics and whatever post I could find that relate but not sure on brand/model to start with.

Question 2. Would a bigger pump give better flow or is the weak flow likely from the leaks and a tired pump?

Question 3. Is removing the heater from the circuit a dumb move?

Question 4. Any recommendations on the plumbing? I would like to keep it as clean and simple as possible. I will probably have to repair /replace the vari-flow valve since it's leaking also. Is the P trap needed with/without the heater.

Here's a couple of pics of the setup, I can provisde more info if needed.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[Bama Rambler]

I'd PM Mark (mas985) and ask him to take a look, but I'd say a 1 hp 2-speed Whisperflo would be fine for that pool.

That plumbing doesn't look bad at all but I can't tell why the discharge line from the multiport going to the heater makes that big dip down and right back up.

I would plumb a bypass for the heater and leave it there unless you're sure you're never going to use it again. Either way it's easy enough to add it back later if you completely plumb it out of the system.

 

[dickeystorm]

Dave,

Thank you for the reply! The dip in the pipe is a mystery to me too. I thought it might be a "P" trap to prevent siphon or maybe a way to support the pipe across the long span, but that doesn't really seem necessary.

The trouble with the plumbing is there are 4 leaks that have been patched multiple time. I also realised today that the pipes coming in from the pool are 2" while the rest of the pipes are 1 1/2". Is this normal? I'm n ot sure bout the return pipe siz3e, need to measure.

I like the idea of the bypass.

I'll PM Mark and see if he can help. Thanks.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Actually having 2" coming from the pool is a very good thing.

 

[dickeystorm]

Some more questions. I've been reading posts about pump/motor replacement and replumbing. I don't intend to use the heater in my spa but it dawned on me that the jets (5) really don't have good flow or pressure. They are actually eyeballs with a roughly 1" opening. I wonder if they were replaced at some time, don't know. The pool is 28 yrs old. There is a blower that makes the jets feel better but with the blower off there is a very weak flow. It would be nice if I could improve the jets in this redo.

I'm leaning toward a 2 speed motor. I also am thinking of replumbing the pad. I have a temporary 1hp pump I am going to hook up until I have time to finish studying, I want to take my time and get it right.

Any thoughts on beefing up the jet flow?

 

[Bama Rambler]

The force out of the jets depends on the pump and the size of the eyeballs. Upping the pump size might help.

 

[dickeystorm]

Is there any way to determine the size of the pipe in the system. I've been reading the hydraulics 101 post and I'm guessing my spa pipe is undersized. I have 2 drains in the bottom of the spa, 1 main drain on the pool side and 5 returns on each side, 1 skimmer. The suction side at the pad appears to be 2 x 2" and the return looks like 2 1.5". After I get the water moving again I'm going to experiment with the valves to try and better understand the setup.

 

[JasonLion]

The size of the pipes going into the ground at the equipment pad usually matches the size of the pipes underground. People do all kinds of strange things occasionally, so you never know for sure, but measuring the pipes where the come out of the ground is your best bet for determining pipe size.

 

[dickeystorm]

So, I'm trying to better understand my pool so I can pick the right pump. (I may be over thinking it) I played with the valves today and found I have 2-2" suction lines and 2-1.5" return lines. One set of lines runs the pool side with 1 skimmer and 1 main drain and 4 eyeballs. The other set runs the spa with 2 main drains and 5 eyeballs.

I found that 2 of the spa jets do not have any flow at all regardless of the valve settings, any thoughts on that?

I'm starting to think that the system may have been altered over the years.

Bruce

 

[mas985]

It could be the spa jet nozzles are plugged. More then likely you have a standard 3/8" jet inside the eyeball fitting. This is what sets the strength of the jet, not the eyeball size. But because they are small, sometimes debris can get stuck. They can usually be removed with a long extension socket wrench. After they are removed, you can then run the pump and see if you can flush anything out of the jet tube. If this doesn't work, then it is probably and issue with the plumbing.

As for pump sizing, it is going to be difficult to get strong jets with 5 jets and such small plumbing. You could try reducing the size of the jet nozzle. When you remove the nozzle to clean out the jet, measure the orifice size and report back.

 

[dickeystorm]

Hi Mark,
I was hoping you'd jump in. I took the nozzles off the spa jets and you were right, all kinds of debris in there. It looks like some plastic fitting broke up, no idea where it came from.

Now in my quest to find the right pump I measured, as best I could, the line around the pool. I estimate about 30-35 ft from the pad to the edge of the pool. From there tI guess the pool returns branch and run about 50-55ft and the spa runs about 60ft. the suction side for the spa is about the same maybe a little shorter.

There is a heater on the pad but I'm pretty sure I'm going to remove it from the loop. Other than that there are the usual valves and fittings.

I also noticed on the old pump that it is 1.5 hp with a service factor of 1.3 and there is a seperate sticker that says total hp 2.0. The current pump is 1.0 hp with sf 1.4 running at 220V. It seems to be doing fine for flow except the spa jets still aren't that strong.

Oh yeah, the jets look like they are the 3/8 ot 7/16 behind the eyeball. The need special tool to get them out as far as I can tell, no hex.

Any suggestions on a pump make/model/size?

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[mas985]

It is really going to be tough to get strong jets out of the small pipe. Up sizing the pump would probably make only a marginal difference. If you are planning to remove the heater, will you be using the spa that much anyway?

One option would be to go with a VS pump to have some control over flow rate although the plumbing will not allow the pump to produce too much flow.

Is the spa a total of 60' from the pump or 30'+60'?

 

[dickeystorm]

If you reference the view of the pool at the top of the posts the pad is on the other side of the garage just visible on the right. It is 55 ft from the spa wall to a point where you turn 90 degrees and go another 8 ft to the center of the pad.

We don't use the spa as a spa now, it would be nice but the costs to make it work marginally don't seem worth it and I can't use much heat for health reasons anyway. So my plan is to remove bypass the heater in a way that makes it easy to put back if I change my mind or sell the house. So I guess what I'm after is just decent flow throughout the pool.

A 2-speed is sounding like a good compromise to me, not too expensive and it offers some flexibility.

I plan to replumb everything because of multiple leaks in the pad area. Is there a reason to keep the "P" trap in the loop. You can see it in the 1st picture of the 1st post leading into the heater.

 

[mas985]

Without an air vent, the P trap serves no purpose since it won't trap any water.