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Thread: new cart filter still not filtering

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    new cart filter still not filtering

    A few months ago I installed a Pentair WhisperFlo 1.5hp pump and a Pentair Clean and Clear 420sq fitler.

    My pool water remains cloudy even though I have made sure the water chemistry is just right. The only thing that is high is something that begins with a "C" and can only be removed by draining the pool. The tester said that everyone has high levels so its nothing to worry about.

    I have tried adding water clarifier which causes most of the particles to sink to the bottom then when I vacuum the debris seems to go thur the filter and back into the pool.

    I looked for leaks by adding Fiberclear or DE to the freshly cleaned filters but nothing comes out of the jets.
    So it seems that only the small particles still don't get trapped as my pool becomes cloudy when I vacuum.

    I am using the orginal filters that came with the tank, do you think something is wrong with these, should I change them, keep in mind they are only 2 months old.
    Thanks
    25K Pool Kidney Shape
    Spa
    Water Slide
    320Sqft Pentair Clean and Clear Cart Filter
    1.5hp Pentair WhisperFlo pump
    400k BTU Hayward LoNox Heater

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    I suspect that your problem is most likely a water chemistry problem stemming from bad test numbers from relying on the pool store for your testing. On the whole, their testing is inaccurate, and their advice is mostly wrong. Get a good quality test kit, like the Taylor K2006 or Duraleigh's at TF Test Kit so you can test your own water. Without good test results, the only thing we could do is guess at what the problem is.
    TFP Moderator
    20K Gallon 20X36 Vinyl Inground
    Hayward S244T Sand Filter with 1HP Whisperflo Pump. Liquidator C-201 and Solar Heat

  3. Back To Top    #3
    Guest
    IF the cloudiness is caused by high cyanuric acid then your pool is overstabilzied. I assume you are using trichor tablets for chlorinating. These, combined with a cartridge filter, are a sure recipe for an overstablized pool! If so you have been given bad advice. Everyone does NOT have high cyanuric acid. The only way to lower cynauric acid is to drain some of the water. Please post a full set of test results, along with info about your pool and equipment (pool surfce, volume, method of chlorination etc.--there is a full writeup on the info to post in the Stickies) and we can help you.
    The other possiblility is high calcium hardness. Once again by adjusting water balance this can be compensated for. While you are at it take some time to read the Stickes. The link to them is in my signature.

    Filter aids are NOT going to help if the cloudiness is caused by either high cyanuric acid or high calcium harness and cloudiness in either case is an indication that your water chemistry is NOT balanced properly.

  4. Back To Top    #4
    just bought the test kit, will post results as soon as kit arrives.
    25K Pool Kidney Shape
    Spa
    Water Slide
    320Sqft Pentair Clean and Clear Cart Filter
    1.5hp Pentair WhisperFlo pump
    400k BTU Hayward LoNox Heater

  5. Back To Top    #5
    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by f18fdg
    just bought the test kit, will post results as soon as kit arrives.
    :thumright:
    TFP Moderator
    20K Gallon 20X36 Vinyl Inground
    Hayward S244T Sand Filter with 1HP Whisperflo Pump. Liquidator C-201 and Solar Heat

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by f18fdg
    just bought the test kit, will post results as soon as kit arrives.
    In the mean time, how are you chlorinating? Trichlor tablets? Bleach? Cal Hypo? Knowing that would be most helpful.

  7. Back To Top    #7
    Here are my test results
    FC = 1ppm
    CC = 0.5ppm
    TC = 1.5ppm
    pH = 7.5
    T/A = 150ppm
    CH = 300ppm
    CYA = 0
    Temp = around 65 (didn't really measure, just read off the heater)

    I use liquid chlorine once a week, and have those 3" tablets floating around the pool (2 floats with 2 tablets each). I want to fix the filtering problem before adding CYA.

    The water is still cloudy and when I vacuum the dirt just goes back into the pool. The filter seems okay, I could not see any cracks in the manifold so I don't know why the filter is not capturing the fine debris.

    I called Pentair, the first person I spoke to said my 1.5hp Whisperflo pump is too big for the 320sq Filter. She suggested I down size the impellor. I talked to three diff pool stores in the area and they told me that this info is wrong. THe filter should be able to handle that size pump. The pool people told me to call Pentair back and ask for someone to come out and check the filter since it is still under warranty. I did but have not heard from their warranty people yet, I will call again on Monday.

    Any thoughts on what Pentair initially told me or why the filter is not capturing the dirt properly. When I open the filter I do see that it has captured some dirt so it is working somewhat.

    Thanks in advance
    25K Pool Kidney Shape
    Spa
    Water Slide
    320Sqft Pentair Clean and Clear Cart Filter
    1.5hp Pentair WhisperFlo pump
    400k BTU Hayward LoNox Heater

  8. Back To Top    #8
    forgot to say: Pool is 25K gal, with an addtional spa and water slide. Pool is a cement/plaster.
    Have a 320sq Clean and CLear filter, 1.5hp Whisperflo pump, 400K BTU Hayward Lo Nox Heater.
    25K Pool Kidney Shape
    Spa
    Water Slide
    320Sqft Pentair Clean and Clear Cart Filter
    1.5hp Pentair WhisperFlo pump
    400k BTU Hayward LoNox Heater

  9. Back To Top    #9
    Guest
    With no cya in the water your chlorine is burning off very fast in the sun. You will lose about half of it in about 30 minutes! Get some CYA in there and then shock the pool and see if it gets any clearer. The fact that there is some CC sort of indicates that the chlorine is trying to kill something.
    Your filter certainly should be able to handle that pump. I have a 1.5 hp whisperflo and a clean and clear 150! My pool sparkles! http://www.troublefreepool.com/viewtopic.php?t=167

  10. Back To Top    #10
    i missread the CYA test, it should be over 100ppm

    sorry
    25K Pool Kidney Shape
    Spa
    Water Slide
    320Sqft Pentair Clean and Clear Cart Filter
    1.5hp Pentair WhisperFlo pump
    400k BTU Hayward LoNox Heater

  11. Back To Top    #11
    Guest
    ok, tha is a very different animal...you most likely have an algae bloom from an overstabilized pool! Get your FC up to30 ppm and KEEP I THERE until your pool clears and then don't let your FC drop below about 10-12 ppm until you drain and refill enough to get your CYA down to a more manageable range.
    Finally STOP USING THE TRICHLOR TABS. THAT IS THE REASON YOUR STABILIZER IS SO HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!! You need to only use an unstabilized chlorine source like bleach or liquid chlorine daily.

    There is NOTHING WRONG with your filter and pump but your water chemistry is off.

  12. Back To Top    #12
    thanks waterbear,

    I use the liquid chlorine from Home Depot, so to get the FC that high I assume I am going to have to throw in a few gallons of the chlorine correct?
    25K Pool Kidney Shape
    Spa
    Water Slide
    320Sqft Pentair Clean and Clear Cart Filter
    1.5hp Pentair WhisperFlo pump
    400k BTU Hayward LoNox Heater

  13. Back To Top    #13

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    F18,

    I use the liquid chlorine from Home Depot, so to get the FC that high I assume I am going to have to throw in a few gallons of the chlorine correct?
    Probably more but I don't see the size of your pool. Use Jason's calculator to tell you how much.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  14. Back To Top    #14
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    CYA does bind to some/most of the chlorine, but the resulting chemicals leave the water completely transparent. There are many things that can cause cloudy water, but simply having CYA in the water won't do it. Adding CYA will change the PH and if you pour it into the skimmer it can disturb the filter, either of which could cause cloudiness in some situations.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  15. Back To Top    #15
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    CYA does bind to some/most of the chlorine, but the resulting chemicals leave the water completely transparent. There are many things that can cause cloudy water, but simply having CYA in the water won't do it. Adding CYA will change the PH and if you pour it into the skimmer it can disturb the filter, either of which could cause cloudiness in some situations.
    I thought of two amendments to the above statement. First, CYA does not cause cloudiness in and of it's self in the visible spectrum, but it does absorb light in some bands not visible by humans. The science is a little sketchy, but it appears that some of this absorption of light not visible to people may indeed be related to the reduction of chlorine consumption by sunlight at higher CYA levels.

    Second, adding CYA changes some other chemical balances, besides PH. Significantly, it reduces the proportion of chlorine that is in the active disinfecting form. That can have substantial indirect effects on the water chemistry, though mostly over days and not over seconds.

    "Chlorine lock" is a myth, or a place holder if you will, for a process that was not well understood until fairly recently. High TDS and CYA levels tend to be associated with pools where there are nominally "acceptable" chlorine levels and yet algae develops. Because the relationship between CYA and the concentration of the active disinfecting form of chlorine was not understood, a myth developed to try and explain what was happening in a memorable way. The reasoning in the myth is flawed, even though the effect is real.

    When the FC level is held constant and the CYA level is raised the pool will first become cloudy with early, yet partially controlled, algae growth. As the CYA level continues to rise a break point is reached where a full fledged algae bloom develops. Since no one knew that the FC level had to be raised when CYA was added to the pool, the cloudiness was described as being caused by the CYA. The cloudiness is indeed caused by the CYA, but in a fairly indirect way. Increased CYA results in reduced active chlorine levels, which allows algae growth, which causes clouding.

    Interestingly, the cloudy stage before a full algae bloom is greatly extended at high CYA levels. At high CYA levels and "conventional" chlorine levels the active chlorine level is low and algae can develop. However, as the algae is killed by chlorine additional active chlorine is released by the CYA and additional algae is killed. At appropriate CYA levels the rate at which the algae grows and the rate at which active chlorine is released is more or less in balance and so the algae does not get fully going for some time, nor is it completely killed off, until the chlorine reserve bound to CYA is used up. This behavior is essentially invisible at lower chlorine levels, so cloudy water caused by algae, rather than fully green water, was not an effect that people where familiar with other than at high CYA levels. In many circles it was not understood that the cloudiness was actually caused by dead algae, and it was assumed that it was caused in some more direct way by CYA.

    The pool industry is full of myths like this one. The chemistry of swimming pools is fairly complex and isn't really well studied. A great number of stories told by old pool hands to explain the things they have seen over their lives. Many of these stories have become accepted as truth despite the fact that many of them have no scientific basis. In several cases the stories promote practices that simply don't work at all. In other cases the stories give good advice, but the advice works for reasons other than the reasons given in the story.

    The advice that CYA should be kept under 100 is good advice but the implied reasoning behind it is flawed. It is completely possible to maintain crystal clear water at very high CYA level. That is a simple observable fact that has been duplicated by thousands of different people. So, observably, the presence of high levels of CYA alone does not cause cloudy water (in the normal visible range). However, high CYA levels do indeed frequently result in cloudy water in practice, through indirect effects, something that is also well documented.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  16. Back To Top    #16
    I adjusted the chlorine to a maintenance level of 10pm. The water did clear up a little, still a little hazy. However when I vacuumed the dirt off the bottom of the pool, I again ran into the same problem. The pool and spa began to cloud up. There is deffinetly something wrong with filter.

    I contacted Pentair, they refered me to a pool service but I have not been able to reach them, I keep getting voicemail and no one calls me back. I will call Pentair again tomorrow to see if they can refer me to someone else who does warranty work (but I doubt it).

    In the mean time, does anyone have any suggestions. I checked the manifolds and the filters and they all seem fine, although I could have a hairline fracture that I am not able to see. It is starting to get a little frustrating after getting all the water chemistry correct and having the same problem that I started this topic with.

    Thanks
    25K Pool Kidney Shape
    Spa
    Water Slide
    320Sqft Pentair Clean and Clear Cart Filter
    1.5hp Pentair WhisperFlo pump
    400k BTU Hayward LoNox Heater

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    f18,

    Here's the only numbers you've posted to date: (from 4/27)

    FC = 1ppm
    CC = 0.5ppm
    TC = 1.5ppm
    pH = 7.5
    T/A = 150ppm
    CH = 300ppm
    CYA = 0 (Understand that you since corrected that to 100+)
    Temp = around 65 (didn't really measure, just read off the heater)
    That's a classic recipe for algae in your pool and raising your FC to 10 will not make it go away. To sanitize that pool and get rid of the algae which I think may well be there, you need to get your FC to 25ppm and HOLD IT THERE until you can keep that FC level of 25 overnite. You may still have a filter problem but I think you have to eliminate the algae possibility first.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  18. Back To Top    #18
    okay I will add more chlorine to get it up from 10 to 25ppm, but if the pool was clear (i could see the bottom very clearly but I could still tell the water was a little hazy) why would it only cloud up during vacuuming.
    25K Pool Kidney Shape
    Spa
    Water Slide
    320Sqft Pentair Clean and Clear Cart Filter
    1.5hp Pentair WhisperFlo pump
    400k BTU Hayward LoNox Heater

  19. Back To Top    #19
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Vacuuming will stir up dust unless you are extremely careful. On the other hand if there was a problem with the filter you would be sure to have clouding up when you were vacuuming.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  20. Back To Top    #20
    yes, I can see the spa cloud up when I start vacuuming since it is closest to the filter. So do you guys have any suggestions as to what else might be wrong with the filter.
    25K Pool Kidney Shape
    Spa
    Water Slide
    320Sqft Pentair Clean and Clear Cart Filter
    1.5hp Pentair WhisperFlo pump
    400k BTU Hayward LoNox Heater

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