Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill pool

[wildzx]

Hello all,
My name is Mac (location California - San Joaquin County).

I am helping my parents at a house they bought last year, it has a nice pool (probably around 5 or so years old). It has been empty for the last few years; so i will be washing it and painting the plaster, which has never been painted. Here are more details about the pool:


- Around 28,500 gallons (US).
40 length
20 width
3.5 shallow
6.5 deep
(The bottom of the pool is slopped, so i took the deepest distance. )
- Sta-Rite Pump P6E6Y4H-209L
- Sta-rite Filter system S8M150
- quikclean cleaning system

Here are all the pictures of the pool and equipment:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1070276390 ... directlink

Now, i know nothing about pools but being somewhat of pool owner, i like to learn. Starting with completely cleaning the whole system and filling it back with water. It has Sta-rite S8M150 filter system and P6E6Y4H-209L pump, i took the both filters out and will clean them, throughly. That is all i know, at this point.
And I'm sure all the pipes also need cleaning and flushing; since the condition of the pool was pretty bad. Now where do i start and how do i clean all the other aspects of the system. The pool is also equipped with quikclean and I'm sure it will also need to clean and flush all those pipes.



Second important question: Its a large allot around 2 acres ( fenced) and will have small kids and maybe even some drunks fools around once a while who have no swimming experience, which is another huge concern to us (and i don't live there either). Now is there a solution and is there any way to keep the water level few feet lower. I know this may sounds stupid but if there is a solution for this, that will be great and peace of mind. Both (2) pool skimmers are at height of 3.5 and other around 6.5 ft (i was thinking of floating skimmers which i can attach to the original or something). And we really don't mind having much lower water level.



So, i need help, can anyone help me get started by providing some steps to get the pool in good shape, again, that will be great. thank you Mac

( and I started looking at other similar threads and most already have pool filled with water or completely different system and situation. )

 

[JasonLion]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Welcome to TFP!

I strongly suggest that you do not paint the plaster. Plaster is designed to work without paint. Adding paint will just create maintenance problems in the future.

Lowering the water level makes the pool significantly more dangerous and requires a significant amount of replumbing.

 

[wildzx]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

yikes, got the paint and everything...was ready to paint this week. I ask few local pool places and also did research online regarding painting the 6 year plaster pool and it was ok by all...so this is total a surprise for me. And have no idea if to leave it or paint it now. I got the paint but that doesn't mean i will use it if you guys think it will mess things up.....i also did assume adding a coat of paint to the plaster will protect it and looks nice and green with white and aquamarine paint.

 

[duraleigh]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

DO NOT paint that pool!! :lol: Plaster is probably the most durable surface for a pool and paint is the least. You will fare FAR better to clean the plaster and then fill your pool.

 

[wildzx]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

ok, i'll clean it this week and no paint.
Now, any steps i should take to fill the pool. how do i clean the all the other aspects of the pool and fill the pool....

 

[joshs2000ss]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

I would go ahead and get a test kit and check your fill water so you'll know what you're working with and be able to balance it from the start.

 

[wildzx]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Ok, so first i will start with acid wash the pool and clean all the pop up quikclean's and the filter. After just use the garden hose or something to fill it up with water (freaking 28,500 gallons), first and only afterwards start messing around with the pump system and start adding required chemicals. is this a good start or will it be better to start the pump system first to flush out the all the dirty water out (since it has not been used for almost 2 years)...

 

[rock]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Ok, so first i will start with acid wash the pool and clean all the pop up quikclean's and the filter.

You have almost the same pool equipment that I have, so take a look at what I've learned over in this recent thread:
- What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilling?

In that thread, I researched the steps to acid wash and others helped by correcting the steps.

just use the garden hose or something to fill it up with water (freaking 28,500 gallons)

I just filled mine with the garden hose at 10 gallons per minute (38,500 gallons) from a well so it's possible. It just takes time (and water).

start messing around with the pump system and start adding required chemicals. is this a good start or will it be better to start the pump system first to flush out the all the dirty water out (since it has not been used for almost 2 years)...

I made the mistake of filling my pool with clean water - and - then today I turned the pumps on (after fixing the plumbing). What happened is dirty water from the filter spewed into my clean pool!

So, I suggest you remove the filter and clean it. I'm learning how in the thread I referenced.

Good luck (BTW, I'm a noob - but I can read and learn so I hope this is helpful. If not, please feel free to ignore).

BTW, it looks like you have the self-cleaning pool by virtue of the shape of the bowl and what looks like a pop-up I saw in the picture and by virtue of the equalization hole below the skimmer for the debris canister. Bear in mind most people I've spoken to do not understand how that type of pool works (see my sig for details) ... so if you 'do' have a self-cleaning pool, then you definitely want to read the part in the referenced thread about removing the pop ups and cleaning them out.

 

[wildzx]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Thanks Rock,
i read most of the thread, it was useful; but still confused on all aspects. Well, we got no choice but fill it up with water, as soon as possible; so following is what i am doing:

- I bought bunch of paint, which i will not use; anymore.
- I got the muriatic acid from Leslie's pool supplies.
- tomorrow i will remove all the pop ups (quikclean) and clean them out (will use dry/wet vacuum to get all the dirty water from bottom)
- i'll also do a light pressure wash tomorrow and acid wash it afterwards (as showed on youtube video).
- clean the filter with spray hose (after pump is started and filled with water i'll clean with again with filter cleaner)
- haven't really looked at all the equipment but most seems to be in good condition so hopefully won't have any problems with leaks.

After cleaning the pool, should i go ahead and fill the pool up with water? Anything else i should test and do before.
Oh, and i will lightly pressure wash the pool, will that be ok before acid wash?

the house is located in outskirts of tracy (san joaquin county) and i'm here in the bay area; so trying to get all the information before heading out there and there is just allot to learn with owing pool....

 

[rock]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

i will remove all the pop ups (quikclean) and clean them out

Good idea. Mine can only be removed using a special tool as shown in this thread:
- What can be done with Paramount pool cleaner heads to remove

(will use dry/wet vacuum to get all the dirty water from bottom)

Someone who actually knows what he's talking about will have to let you know how that might work out. Me? I used a simple electric immersible pump. Then, to get the last bit of muddy water out, I used a plastic snow shovel to fill a bucket with scoops of the last two inches of murky bottom water - where I placed the immersible pump in that bucket to pump it all out. That got every last drop of water out of the pool, and then I swept the sandy dust with a broom.

i'll also do a light pressure wash tomorrow and acid wash it afterwards

Again, those who know will need to advise you. But, from 'my' one experience, if you're going to acid wash, then there wouldn't seem to be a need to pressure wash beforehand.

After cleaning the pool, should i go ahead and fill the pool up with water?

You might want to check the lights and spa electrical connections - but bear in mind the lights are designed to be water cooled - so you can only run them momentarily I believe (others can tell you better than I).

 

[wildzx]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Ok, after two days of trying to get the pool ready to re-fill it with water; I'm still stuck.
So, on yesterday (friday), i head over the house with 2 gallon of muriatic acid.
- first i removed all the pop ups and other all other attachments on the pool (drain covers, baskets, inflow caps etc..) and hand clean all off them.
- Next I use a wet/dry vacuum and suck all the dirty water with wet/dry vacuum out off all the pipes in the pool.
- Next i pressure wash the pool (low pressure).
- Next acid wash with muriatic acid (31.5%), i use only half gallon of water mixed with full gallon of acid.
- I follow the instructions as on same video posted by Rock; with some modifications; seems fairly easy.
- Problem is that there is yellow stuff on the walls of the pool, up to the point of skimmers (water level), which did not come off; so i figured, i will try full strength but didn't have enough for the whole pool.
- So, i go back today with 5 gallons of acid and did not mix with water, I used a sprayer to apply the application with no water but no luck, same result the yellow stuff ain't coming off (well, not exactly, i does come off but around 30% and leaving spots, please see pictures).
- So, again today i gave up and just cleaned the filters and other pool equipment.
- Any recommendations on how to remove this yellow stuff; should i just pour the acid on the walls; which i think might work but seems tricky and not correct.
please advise.
thanks Mac

(oh, and the lines you see coming from the tiles is another mess i have deal with, its sealer i used on the pool coping/tiles and it leaked on the pool, leaving marks….any suggestions on that will be great…i used sealer removed, all types gasoline, bleach, acid, lysol, sandpaper, hand scraper and still going..)

 

[applgrl]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Actually, your pool looks pretty good! I have an older pool (gunite) and your plaster looks similar. As the gunnite ages, it does yellow and if some of the top flecks off I can see how bright white it once was.

My tips:
1--agree DO NOT paint the pool.
2--I never acid wash, I empty my pool every spring and simply pour a mix of half laundry bleach/half water liberally down the sides of the pool from the top. As it stands on the walls, it bleaches, kills any algae, and works without scrubbing or removing material like a pressure washer does. You can push the bleachy water around with a scrub broom to get any stubborn algae spots or stains.
3--when you first fill your pool, start the pump on "backwash" not "filter". Backwash for ten minutes to get the ugly stuff out of the filter.
4--the color differential you are seeing will likely disappear when the pool is full and the water clears.

Good luck!

 

[applgrl]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Oh yeah, forgot one thing about lowering the water level: don't do it. The plaster needs water supporting it or it will dry out and chip off. Look for a floating pool alarm instead if you are worried about kids, dogs, and drunks.

 

[wildzx]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Great, thanks.
Will be going back on tuesday, hopefully be finished cleaning the pool and start filling it up with water (probably will take few days..garden water hose)

Few questions on chemicals, as i will be buying them this week.

- First, should i add any chemicals after backwashing it or before; for them to be effective? (oh we have cartridge filter, which i have cleaned)?
- Do i need to add pool conditioner/stabilizer after filling it with water?
- Also, we have the quikclean popups on bottom on the pool, how well do does these in floor cleaning system work,? do i still need to buy a cleaning robot or some type of vacuum; any recomendation ?


And just want to verify all the valves (please see pictures)

2 valves (red rectangle box in picture) look like they are coming from 2 drains from pool, i might be wrong? (what are these for and which way the valves should be? - they move 3 direction).

3 red valves ( in green rectangle box in picture) look like they come from quikclean which is connected to the filter?

- Around 28,500 gallons (US) (20' x 40').
- in ground plaster
- Sta-Rite Pump P6E6Y4H-209L
- Sta-rite Filter system S8M150 -cartridge filter
- quikclean cleaning system

 

[rock]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

probably will take few days..garden water hose

You might want to time how long it takes to fill a gallon bucket so that you can guesstimate how long it will take to fill the pool.

For example, at a consistent 10 gallons per minute, it will take about a day and a half to add 20,000 gallons.

First, should i add any chemicals after backwashing it?

Someone who knows more may correct me - but I have a similar cartridge filter and I was told you don't back wash them. You 'wash' them with a hose (or dipped in a solution of TSP or dish soap); but you don't backwash them in the way that other types of filters are backwashed.

Do i need to add pool conditioner/stabilizer after filling it with water?

Again ... I'm no expert ... but IIRC, you need something like 30 to 50 ppm CYA (depending on your circumstances) or you'll be losing chlorine to the sunlight; and since your incoming water is zero ppm CYA ... it's not gonna get in there unless you put it there.

Of course, if you're using trichlor or dichlor, your CYA levels will rise, over time (assuming no dilution); but ... my understanding is my pool needed 10 pounds of CYA to get the level to where it belonged (from zero) so you can't expect the trichlor or dichlor to get it up there that fast.

What I was told was to fill an old sock with handfuls of granular CYA and hang the sock in the skimmer. Bear in mind, your skimmer is likely like mine where it is UNFILTERED (because it runs the cleaning pop ups) -- so you might want to hang that sock in the debris canister (if you have one, which is filtered).

BTW, the pool stores will gladly sell you liquid CYA ... but ... it's gonna cost you!

Perhaps quixotically, while adding CYA protects your chlorine from UV degradation, it also raises your need for higher chlorine levels ... so ... be sure to check out the oft-mentioned pool calculators to see what chlorine level you need to maintain given whatever CYA level you stabilize at.

Also, we have the quikclean popups on bottom on the pool, how well do does these in floor cleaning system work,? do i still need to buy a cleaning robot or some type of vacuum; any recomendation ?

Again, listen to others as I'm no expert.

However, being an engineer and having spent an hour on the phone with the company that makes the pop ups and another two hours with the company that built the pool ... both swear that nowadays, they do things better. But both still say that even an older 'properly running' infloor system should clean the pool without the need for an additional vacuum. But again, it's gonna' cost ya. The pop ups use an entire motor the entire time the filters are working. So you have TWO pumps going while most others only have one. Your decision depends partially on your electric rates (mine are 45 cents per kWh for most of the month) and on how well the system is functioning. It was 'designed' to clean the pool without a vacuum - but - if it's not - well then you have to either fix the system or add the vacuum.

Personally, I am getting close to removing the cleaner pump for the popup system and moving it over to the vacuum system which is capped off. I can't post a picture because all mine are captioned - but - take a look at the MIDDLE of your pool to see if you too have a capped off vacuum port.

If you do have a capped-off vacuum port, you have the same options I have (I presume):
a) Attach a pump and filter to the capped off pipe at your equipment location and now you have a pool vacuum!
b) Plug in a standalone pool vacuum (usually 120v) with its own filter and let it clean the pool.
c) Maintain the infloor system such that it keeps the pool clean.

Again, I can't refer you to the correct captioned picture because I can't 'see' them anymore ... so take it from me by my words only how it works:
1. The infloor system is 'supposed' to keep your pool clean.
2. It isn't efficient (because pumps use a LOT of electricity) - but it is supposed to keep the pool clean.
3. The concept is that the debris is pushed to the deep end of the pool where it can't get out.
4. That's why your deep end is like a cliff.
5. At the bottom of your deep end, if your system is like mine, you should have two popups that are NOT attached to the cleaner!
6. Those two popups are run by the filter pump (not the cleaner pump!) and they run all the time the filter pump does and do not spin.
7. All the rest run with the cleaner pump (which gets its water from the skimmers) which is not filtered.
8. There are two 6-port valves on your deck (if your pool is like mine) which control the popups.
9. They should be around 24 psi each but the second one is lower psi (a little bit) and it goes down to zero half the time.
10. If the pop ups stay up after they are supposed to go down - you have a stuck piston in the cleaner heads.
11. You 'can' hook a vacuum hose to the debris canister (if you have one); but it's a royal pain to use (trust me - I've tried).
12. If all is working well, the cleaner system stirs the pool about once every 8 hours - and the debris should all go to the main drain.

Please see the aforementioned thread on the details of the pop-up cleaning system for a diagram of the system and an explanation of its operation.

Caution: A lot of people will tell you to hook a vacuum hose to the skimmers ... but all those who told me that didn't understand how my pool was built. If yours is the same, hooking the vacuum to the skimmers will simply shoot the debris back into the pool (via the popups). Trust me. I've tried it when I listened to those people (who were pool professionals, mind you). It won't work if your pool is like mine. Your skimmers 'may' be additionally hooked to your filtering system (mine is not) - in which case the common susggestion to hook a vacuum to the skimmers 'might' work for you if you keep the filter pump running at the same time you vacuum.

But you should run this test first:
A. Run 'just' the filter pump and feel for suction in the two ports at the bottom of the skimmers.
If your pool is like mine, there will be no suction in the skimmers (the second of two ports is capped off).
B. Run 'just' the cleaner pump and feel for suction in the two ports at the bottom of the skimmers.
If your pool is like mine, there will be tremendous suction (close your fist!) at only one of the two ports (as the other is capped off).
C. If you have a debris canister, run the same test as above.
If your pool is like mine, there will be tremendous suction (again, close your fist) only when the filter pump is running (my other port is capped off).

Caution: You're not supposed to run the filter pump with the debris canister lid off (because the filter pump will eventually lose prime according to my conversations with the PCC2000 pop-up people) but you have to do so to run this test or to vacuum using the debris canister suction - so - it's best to enlist a partner who can turn the pumps on and off from the pool equipment area as you fiddle with the debris canister at the other end of the pool (i.e., the coordination is tricky if you're going to try to vacuum from the debris canister hookup).

Caveat: I don't know anything about pools. I'm just learning about mine. So please ignore any of my advice if any subsequent advice from others contradicts what I say above.

EDIT: I'm looking quizzically at your pool equipment - and - it appears yours is hooked up differently than mine so all that I said above may be off depending on whether or not you have a separate cleaner pump. I have three pumps (one for the filter, another for the cleaner, and a third for the spa). All three are wholly separate systems. You don't appear to have three pumps ... so your system may work differently than does mine. I would delete all I said above - but - it might help others - so I leave it in for you to confirm your pumps and the suction in the skimmers & debris canister (if it exists in your pool).

 

[zea3]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

You can test the staining on the pool walls to see what it is. For either test dampen the test area first. If you have any trichlor pucks laying around, get one and rub it on some of the stained area. If the stain lifts or lightens then it is organic staining and higher chlorine levels will eventually remove it. The second test is to rub a vitamin c tablet on the stain, or leave it on the stain for 24 hours if you have a flat area available in the pool. If the vitamin C removes it then you can treat the pool with ascorbic acid. Now if the vitamin C removes the stain you will need to test your fill water for iron. If you are positive for iron post back and we will tell you what to do.

 

[JasonLion]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Caution: A lot of people will tell you to hook a vacuum hose to the skimmers ... but all those who told me that didn't understand how my pool was built. If yours is the same, hooking the vacuum to the skimmers will simply shoot the debris back into the pool (via the popups).

While this does happen once in a long while, it is wildly unlikely and I wouldn't worry about it as a possibility.

 

[wildzx]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

Ok, after 9 gallons of acid and 3 gallons of bleach (yes, i used all the recommended methods of acid washing), and now... i am just ready to fill the whole pool with acid at this point. These yellow grain like stain are stubborn and just don't come off. I been just spilling acid and now there are yellow marks and spots all over the pool where acid did not work; apparently, i am assuming i did not spill enough acid…looks alike (please see picture taken this evening).

So, next option for me is to paint the pool ( i already have pool paint), but thought i ask here, before …if that will be a mistake. But, still here are my options:

-- 1st option: Give Up ! Leave it as it and fill the pool up with water; hopefully, treat it afterwards to remove the yellow grain like stain.
-- 2nd option: Get more acid and keep spilling till it is totally clean and white.
-- 3rd option: Paint it. (i already have white pool paint, as long as the pool paint last me 2-3 years i am happy and i am planing on using white paint which will mix with plaster better than other colors)

If i leave it and fill it up with water, it may look ugly will all stains; so, not sure which route to take but i am leaning towards painting. Any arguments/negative comments against painting or which option should i take…
Thanks Mac

 

[rock]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

(please see picture taken this evening

I only have a single experience with the HCl so I can't advise you much except to say the muriatic acid cleaned EVERTYTHING down to the gray plaster in my single experience! In fact, it was astonishing how it bubbled and foamed and, in about half a minute, it basically removed all the rough white scratchy calcium deposits and the blue copper stains. I then washed off the yellowed muriatic acid with a garden hose. The result was a gray smooth layer of plaster, albeit the acid pitted the plaster ever so slightly (which was expected).

Anyway, there was no yellow on my pool at any time, before or after. However, my pool started life as gray plaster. Do you think perhaps your plaster started out yellow? What color do you think your plaster is anyway? Is it that tan color I see in the pictures? Is there any way to find the original builder and ask what color the pool was originally?

I realize this isn't much help - so please ignore if/when someone who knows what they're doing comes to advise.

 

[esim13]

Re: Beginner. Empty pool need to start the system and fill

I'll put my 2cents in and say DO NOT paint. Why, because I'm no expert and the experts here (Duraleigh, JasonLion, to name a few) say not to paint. Trust them! After lurking, reading and posting here for a few years - I trust THEM!