Do I have the right pump?

[Mike_k]

First post - first pool - first problem...

My pool was installed late last year. When it was completed, they filled it, ran it for a few minutes and closed it for the winter. The installer opened the pool the first week of April. After about a week, the pump stopped working (1 HP Hayward Max-Flo II). Turns out the motor burned out. It got so hot that the labels on the outside were charred. The installer received and installed a replacement motor from Hayward. A week later, the pump stopped working again. I happened to be outside this time when it stopped - the motor was humming, but the pump was still. I'm guessing that this is what happened the first time and the motor eventually burned out (or whatever the proper technical term is).

So here I am on day 10 without a functioning pump - it took the installer four days to come by - the Hayward rep said he would send a new pump 2nd day delivery, but it's almost a week later and still no pump. I've been doing a little research on pumps (I'm about ready to just buy another pump and install it myself) and saw this note about the Max-Flo pumps on poolplaza.com:

This pump is a nice medium head pump that works well on simpler pools which might have just a pump and filter and fairly short runs between the equipment and the pool. Pools with lots of equipment (pump, filter, heater, pressure side cleaner, etc) or longer piping runs should look at the Super 2 pump instead.

So now I'm wondering if this is even the right pump for my pool. Here are the details: 34,000 gal in-ground, 500# Hayward sand filter, Raypac heat pump, Jandy SWG, 4 deck jets. The equipment pad is 20-25 feet from the shallow end of the pool, the pool is 40 feet long.

Here is a photo of the equipment pad:

There are 4 inputs on the right - 3 skimmers and 1 for bottom drains; 2 outputs in the middle; 4 deck jets on the left.
There is also a separate fountain thingy with its own pump - a Hayward Superpump. This pump is between the Max-Flo and the filter.

So is the Hayward Max-Flo the right pump for me? Are the problems I'm having just a fluke, or is it not a good option for my setup? I've been reading about pump sizing and head gain and head loss and graphs and curves - and it's still over my head. As I've been typing this my installer called and said that he called the Hayward rep and was told that the pump is back-ordered and was not in fact shipped last week. I'm pretty fed up with relying on other people to solve this problem. This forum has given me the confidence to test and treat my pool myself - it would be fantastic if I could do the same on the equipment side. I guess I've gotten a little off track from my original question - so any suggestions on the pump - or anything else with my setup with by greatly appreciated!! Thanks!

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Welcome to TFP!
Something else is definitely wrong. First thing I'd check is the voltage going to the pump; is it 110 or 220?

 

[Mike_k]

Thanks!

It's 220 - at least it's on a 220 breaker. Both times the pump failed the pool company sent out an electrician to look at things. He's the same one I hired to do all of the electrical work for the pool and has done other work for me as well. I trust him quite a bit. I know he tested stuff - not sure exactly what though.

 

[Mike_k]

Update - PB received a replacement pump from Hayward and installed it last Monday (complete unit - pump and motor). Checked on it yesterday, Saturday, and it was running but the pressure was very low - low enough that my SWG said no flow. I turned it off and checked the basket - then turned it on and it wouldn't prime. I poured water in it and tried again but there was no movement. After 15 seconds the motor started to smoke.

So in 5 weeks they have installed 3 motors, all have failed. They replaced the pump, so I don't think that it's a bad pump. Tomorrow PB will install an Intelliflo pump.

I'm just wondering if anyone has any ideas why this is happening. Was the Hayward just not heavy duty enough? Are there any questions that I need to be asking?

 

[JasonLion]

While that pump is not ideal for your situation, nothing you have mentioned could have caused anything like the problems you describe.

The two most likely things which would cause rapid failures like that are setting up the pump for 120 volts but attaching it to a 240 volt line, and having water spraying directly on the motor from a sprinkler system or a leak somewhere nearby. A failure like that could also be caused by a defective motor, but having three in a row fail makes that exceedingly unlikely.

 

[Mike_k]

While that pump is not ideal for your situation, nothing you have mentioned could have caused anything like the problems you describe.

The two most likely things which would cause rapid failures like that are setting up the pump for 120 volts but attaching it to a 240 volt line, and having water spraying directly on the motor from a sprinkler system or a leak somewhere nearby. A failure like that could also be caused by a defective motor, but having three in a row fail makes that exceedingly unlikely.

Thanks for the reply. I am almost positive that the pump is on a 240 volt circuit - but I don't know what the pump itself is set for.

As far as getting wet - there's not a sprinkler or a leak, but it is out in the open and gets wet when it rains. Is this going to be an issue?

 

[JasonLion]

Rain isn't anywhere near as significant as something spraying horizontally. The pump has air vents that are designed to keep water from above from getting in. But a sprinkler, or some leaks, can be spraying up from below and go right in the air vents.

 

[Mike_k]

Rain isn't anywhere near as significant as something spraying horizontally. The pump has air vents that are designed to keep water from above from getting in. But a sprinkler, or some leaks, can be spraying up from below and go right in the air vents.

Gotcha. There's nothing now that is spraying from below. That's good to know, though. The next pump won't be a Hayward, but I'm interested what the current one's voltage setting is.

 

[mas985]

That picture makes it look like the return is plumbed back into the suction. Can you take a different view. Especially of the two valves feeding the suction side of the pump.

Also, what was the filter pressure when the pump was running?

 

[Mike_k]

I can take some better photos tomorrow, but maybe these blow-ups will help. The return is plumbed back into the suction - sort of. The PB added the option to make the main drain a return rather than suction. The reason was to allow me to send heated water from the heat pump to the main drain - supposedly to allow the pool to heat faster. In the first photo, the red arrows are the normal flow. By changing the values I can change the flow to be the blue arrows.

Here is an overhead shot: (I don't have a wider view from over head. I will take one tomorrow.)
The red valve below is the same red valve to the right above.

 

[Mike_k]

Forgot to add - filter pressure when the pump was running was around 16 psi. During the 15 or 20 days that the pump has been working, the pressure hasn't changed.

And here's a blow-up of the suction side. Again, I'll take better photos tomorrow.

 

[mas985]

My initial concern was that the plumbing was feeding water back into the suction of the pump which could cause problems but as long as that valve was shut off during this event, then that probably wasn't the cause.

The problem could have been in the wet end and remained after they changed the motor so with a completely new pump, hopefully the issue will go away.

 

[Mike_k]

The replacement they made last week was a new motor and pump. So the wet end has been replaced once already in all of this, and the motor failed 5 days later.

 

[mas985]

The only thing I can think of is that maybe Hayward had a bad run of that model. Can you tell who the motor manufacture (not Hayward) is from the pump nameplate (e.g. A.O.Smith, Emerson, US Motors)?

It might be time to ask for a different model and perhaps a different manufacture as well.

 

[Mike_k]

I'm hoping that this is the case. PB is in the process of replacing it with a Pentair IntelliFlo. The Hayward pump is gone - can't check the nameplate. I know that PB had a tough time getting this last replacement from Hayward - there were stock issues or backorder issues or something. I really have no idea what the plan is if this one fails.

One thing that I forgot to mention, don't know if it means anything or not. When the Hayward pump was working, we noticed that water was not coming out of one of the returns. There are six returns total - one in the steps, three in the pool and two in the swim-out. There are two return pipes - one feeds the first four returns, the other feeds the two swim-out returns. When I closed the value on the swim-out returns, water was coming out of the silent return, but when I opened the swim-out valve, the return went silent again. I'm not sure if this is just a water pressure/physics issue - four returns on one pipe versus two on the other, or if this is a sign that the pump just wasn't strong enough. I guess we'll see what happens with the Pentair.

 

[Mike_k]

I'm not sure if it's relevant anymore, but here are some better photos of the plumbing.

You can see the new Intelliflo pump. PB wants it to run at 3,000 RPM for the next few days to see if there are any issues. Seems to be running great so far. All returns have good water flow, the filter pressure is now around 25 psi (from 16 psi with the Hayward).

Fingers are crossed.

Thanks for all of the advice!

 

[Chancho]

Any updates? Any comments from your pool guy? Do you guys think the Hayward just wasn't up to the task? Are you happpy wtih the Intelliflo? Interesting Story!

 

[Mike_k]

Any updates? Any comments from your pool guy? Do you guys think the Hayward just wasn't up to the task? Are you happpy wtih the Intelliflo? Interesting Story!

Motors on two new pumps plus a replacement motor all failed. The pool guy had the same model fail on a different pool. I'm not sure if he ever got any more info from Hayward on what the problem was. The Intelliflo has been working like a champ. No problems whatsoever.