New fiberglass pool is full of cracks... HELP!
- Thread starter mcaswell
- Start date
Michael,
I actually think this is a great development in that it is a outside entity illustrating the cavalier attitude of the builder and the lack of attention to detail that has been the hallmark of your project. I don't see how it can do anything but strengthen your arguments. On the other hand, I am sorry that the hits just keep on coming....
Regards,
Bill
I actually think this is a great development in that it is a outside entity illustrating the cavalier attitude of the builder and the lack of attention to detail that has been the hallmark of your project. I don't see how it can do anything but strengthen your arguments. On the other hand, I am sorry that the hits just keep on coming....
Regards,
Bill
Oh man this is great news for you (potentially). Might ask your lawyer what sort of future problems violating this code could have, meaning even if you get an "exception" there must be a reason for the rule. What is that reason? What liability do you have even with an exception?
harleysilo said:
I believe the main reason is drainage... running down the property line between the houses is a "swale" (I think that's the term)... essentially a very shallow ditch to facilitate runoff from each property and channel it towards the street. With the decking blocking off much of this, I presume the concern is that water will not be able to freely move past it on its way to the street (which the builder is saying he would address by installing a drainage pipe underneath the decking), along with a secondary concern of increased runoff from the decking going into the neighbor's yard.
My only concern is that the contract states "Owner shall designate by stakes the exact site of the pool, and be responsible for the location as being within their property lines and clear of setbacks..."
However, my lawyer did not seem worried about this, particularly since the she saw the drawing that had been submitted by the builder, indicating a 6ft. distance from the fence, plus there was another document from the permit office that he and I both signed on the day of the dig that specified a minimum 5ft. setback. I mean, I can testify that I brought up this concern to the builder several times in various stages of the build, and it was disregarded, but having something on paper that shows he knew the required setback (and intended to place the pool accordingly) is pretty hard to argue against.
--Michael
Electron Mover said:
Yes, and I hope that this thread will serve as an important learning tool for those looking to build a pool. It's one thing to read the standard advice of "get everything in writing" and "don't believe everything the builder says", but I think it's helpful to see an actual illustration of how things can go wrong when you trust your builder too much and thus don't stick religiously to these rules.
--Michael
Is it me or can this latest set back be a good thing?
The pool location contradicts the plan location and is in violation of a local building code, the responsibility for that falls with the contractor, so, is it me or is that end of story: the pool has to come out - not due to the cracking but due to the error in location.
And tell the builder you want a new pool because taking it in and out will be too much for the cracking to handle.
Does your lawyer see this angle as well? I'm thinking that you may not want an exception from the building dept.
The pool location contradicts the plan location and is in violation of a local building code, the responsibility for that falls with the contractor, so, is it me or is that end of story: the pool has to come out - not due to the cracking but due to the error in location.
And tell the builder you want a new pool because taking it in and out will be too much for the cracking to handle.
Does your lawyer see this angle as well? I'm thinking that you may not want an exception from the building dept.
cramar said:
Yes, although the contract says I'm responsible for staking out the exact placement of the pool, the fact that he clearly knew how far it was supposed to be from the fence (plus that he disregarded my repeated attempts to call his attention to the problem) swings it heavily in my favor.
I suspect an exception is not something that will be as easy as just making a phone call to someone at the permit office and telling them you're going to put a drain pipe in, with them saying "sure, that's good enough... after all it's only a few inches". The 5ft. requirement is a parish (county) ordinance, and I doubt a single person can simply approve an exception... there's probably some kind of formal appeal process.
I'm sure the builder will plead to them that he's already done all this work, and it's just a few inches, but that's why the procedure is that he's supposed to call for the preliminary drainage inspection BEFORE the shell is put in place and all the other associated work is done... that way just in case there's a problem, they can just modify the hole a bit and then place the shell (or shoot the gunite).
The only reason I can think of why he didn't do this is because it would have interfered with his scheduling / workflow. The install crew came in from out of town (not exactly sure where... maybe about 3 or 4 hours away I think), and making them wait for all the dirt to be hauled off (which is a requirement) after supervising the dig (which was done by yet another subcontractor) would have likely resulted in them having to be onsite for an additional day or so.
So, instead, he gambled and had them do the whole job before the preliminary drainage inspection, and now it's flared up as a potentially huge problem for him.
--Michael
To keep the pool where it is at, you would have to request a code variance for your situation. These can take some time and it is usually evaluated by 1 or more government departments (i.e. Public Stormwater board, and/or planning board) and might even need County Commisioner's final sign-off. It would also have to be recorded in your deed.
Part of my deck has insufficient setback and when I bought my house, the survey showed it. Consequently, the title insurance company exempted themselves from any liability. With no understanding of what this meant, I consulted an attorney before closing on the home purchase. Since it was a deck and not the pool, he pointed out that the worse that could happen is that I would have to get part of the deck cut off if the County forced me to. Or, I could go for a variance that would take months and a few bucks. He said that since the pool was there already for a few years that there would likely be no issue, except this matter would come up again when I tried to sell the house. An approved variance that is noted on the property deed (title) is the only safe way to protect you from a problem when you go to sell, assuming the County (Parrish) will grant it.
Part of my deck has insufficient setback and when I bought my house, the survey showed it. Consequently, the title insurance company exempted themselves from any liability. With no understanding of what this meant, I consulted an attorney before closing on the home purchase. Since it was a deck and not the pool, he pointed out that the worse that could happen is that I would have to get part of the deck cut off if the County forced me to. Or, I could go for a variance that would take months and a few bucks. He said that since the pool was there already for a few years that there would likely be no issue, except this matter would come up again when I tried to sell the house. An approved variance that is noted on the property deed (title) is the only safe way to protect you from a problem when you go to sell, assuming the County (Parrish) will grant it.
Thanks John, helpful information.
One particularly amusing thing I forgot to mention about my conversation with the builder yesterday... I don't recall the exact context of the statement, but at one point he said "you say it wasn't installed properly, I say it was, and you're just trying to get a new pool out of this" or something along those lines, in a way that implied I was attempting to force him into replacing a 20 year old faded and beat up pool for a new one.
I've been trying to be as calm as possible in these discussions, but at that point I did get a bit irate.
Yes, imagine that... I'm trying to get a new pool. How unfair of me. I stated the obvious, that I gain nothing (beyond what the contract promises) with this fight. My kids are extremely sad that "daddy is making them tear the pool out" when they were just a week away from being able to have their friends come over and swim, and my wife and I both quite literally feel physically ill over the whole thing. I'm in the process of building a shed in my yard, and over the weekend I couldn't even bring myself to go out there because I'd have to see that beautiful pool the whole time.
I am well aware that I can obtain instant (but likely temporary) relief from all this with one simple phone call to the builder, "ok, we've decided to accept the pool... come and finish it", and within a week we'd be swimming (well, maybe not now since this setback issue has come up).
Yet he thinks that replacing this shell signifies a "bonus" of sorts for me?
I don't believe he really thinks that... I guess he just misspoke. But it still shows how he is approaching this.
--Michael
One particularly amusing thing I forgot to mention about my conversation with the builder yesterday... I don't recall the exact context of the statement, but at one point he said "you say it wasn't installed properly, I say it was, and you're just trying to get a new pool out of this" or something along those lines, in a way that implied I was attempting to force him into replacing a 20 year old faded and beat up pool for a new one.
I've been trying to be as calm as possible in these discussions, but at that point I did get a bit irate.
Yes, imagine that... I'm trying to get a new pool. How unfair of me. I stated the obvious, that I gain nothing (beyond what the contract promises) with this fight. My kids are extremely sad that "daddy is making them tear the pool out" when they were just a week away from being able to have their friends come over and swim, and my wife and I both quite literally feel physically ill over the whole thing. I'm in the process of building a shed in my yard, and over the weekend I couldn't even bring myself to go out there because I'd have to see that beautiful pool the whole time.
I am well aware that I can obtain instant (but likely temporary) relief from all this with one simple phone call to the builder, "ok, we've decided to accept the pool... come and finish it", and within a week we'd be swimming (well, maybe not now since this setback issue has come up).
Yet he thinks that replacing this shell signifies a "bonus" of sorts for me?
I don't believe he really thinks that... I guess he just misspoke. But it still shows how he is approaching this.
--Michael
Your last response concerns me. Trust me, I completely get the fact that you've come this far and you're so close to swimming, however you paid for a new pool. You are entitled to a new pool. Not a reconditioned or reinstalled pool. It sounds like you're still sympathetic to the builder when you have no reason to be. If the cracks are because of an installation issue then that's on the builder. If they're due to the manufacturer then place the blame there. Either way neither problem is yours. The builder and manufacturer need to work this out. In the meantime they need to install a NEW pool shell. Would you accept a brand new fiberglass boat (at brand new price) with cracks throughout the gelcoat? No one on this forum would tow it off the lot. No matter how bad the family wanted to go fishing. Why should you accept a poorly installed pool? Because it's already 50% installed? Because the cost of replacement is so much more? Because you want to swim in a week? Please, please, I beg you, do not accept the current status quo.
Please don't take this post as my attempt to "brow beat" you into doing what I would do. It's obvious from your replies that this whole mess is causing a lot of unnecessary stress. I would just hate to see you throw up your hands in frustration, bend over and take it. I promise you that's what the builder and manufacturer are counting on. Remember that they can remove the current shell, patch it up and sell it to the next guy at a discount. They aren't out of as much money as you think.
I hate this for ya'll. Good luck and keep us posted!
P.S. I just told my wife about your tile layer letting his kids swim in the pool. Wow, just wow. That's so inappropriate and unprofessional I just don't know where to start.
Please don't take this post as my attempt to "brow beat" you into doing what I would do. It's obvious from your replies that this whole mess is causing a lot of unnecessary stress. I would just hate to see you throw up your hands in frustration, bend over and take it. I promise you that's what the builder and manufacturer are counting on. Remember that they can remove the current shell, patch it up and sell it to the next guy at a discount. They aren't out of as much money as you think.
I hate this for ya'll. Good luck and keep us posted!
P.S. I just told my wife about your tile layer letting his kids swim in the pool. Wow, just wow. That's so inappropriate and unprofessional I just don't know where to start.
I hate to say it but at this point, after seeing his comments about trying to get a new pool out of this, if it was me, I would have my attorney take his head off
mcaswell said:A new wrinkle...
I know someone posted here that we can all sit back and say this, that or the other and to be honest, that is why we are here... It's a forum to discuss things.
So this is what I would do if I were in your very position right now.
I would shove this *FAILURE TO COMPLY* so far up his you know what and DEMAND that he pull that pool out and start over as much as it would hurt to see the kids and wife cry and see a big black hole in your yard! Then you could see what that pool is sitting on and then demand a new one because just like someone referencing that boat... you wouldn't buy a brand new one and accept it with defects. Atleast I wouldn't! I, just like you, could have bought a crappy one to begin with if that were the case.
No way! On the hottest day of summer would I let someone waste my money like that without telling them about it (and I know you have)!
Above all, I'm sorry you are dealing with this.
The "conditions" on the back were written by a lawyer first off, there are about 20 items listed on the back, exceptions about hitting rock and such. I am sure every builder has something similar on their contracts.
Well you may still be ok here. Technically it was staked out... the position of the bricks that remained even after the old paint had faded could be considered "Staked out". They chose to re-draw the pool without properly working from the position of those bricks, and when pointed out to the builder, he also chose to ignore that they failed to work from the original "staked out" centerpoint markers.mcaswell said:
Make sure the inspections dept know you are NOT in favor of a variance and they will not issue one...
Have him pull that pool out,get the shell checked out and replaced if necessary. If they do it right this time around, a repair on the shell may be acceptable, technically, rather than a whole new pool. But get the pool out of the hole to see what it was sitting on. Video it when they pull it out.
Have him pull that pool out,get the shell checked out and replaced if necessary. If they do it right this time around, a repair on the shell may be acceptable, technically, rather than a whole new pool. But get the pool out of the hole to see what it was sitting on. Video it when they pull it out.
36racin
0
Micheal,
Now that I know you general location I have heard that St. Tammany has some pretty strick drainage codes. In fact I just heard your parish president talking about it on the radio a few weeks ago. I'm from Ascension Parish and as far as variances go only the land owner can apply for the variance!!! And all have to go before what we call the Board of Adjustments or Planning and Zoning commission. I would contact your parish councileman or police jury person and have get them involved. Show them the crack issue then the stop work notice. Maybe the parish can put a stop notice on this contractors work on other jobs? Is this contractor even licensed to do business in your parish?? Call the parish sales tax collector and get his business license #. Good luck and keep us posted.
Now that I know you general location I have heard that St. Tammany has some pretty strick drainage codes. In fact I just heard your parish president talking about it on the radio a few weeks ago. I'm from Ascension Parish and as far as variances go only the land owner can apply for the variance!!! And all have to go before what we call the Board of Adjustments or Planning and Zoning commission. I would contact your parish councileman or police jury person and have get them involved. Show them the crack issue then the stop work notice. Maybe the parish can put a stop notice on this contractors work on other jobs? Is this contractor even licensed to do business in your parish?? Call the parish sales tax collector and get his business license #. Good luck and keep us posted.