AG Construction/Permit Questions

[katkami]

Hi there,

I'm sure this will probably be the first of many questions. So far we've done the following
* Purchased the pool (it's in stock)
* Had the installer come out & survey our property
* Submitted & recieved a building permit from the town

We can't have the pool installed yet - weather isn't cooperating. But it will be in the next few weeks. In what order should we be concerned about the following:

* Electrician - Contacting & finding the electrician
* Electrician permit - we need to get separate permit for the electrician?
* Natural Gas Heater - If we decide to install a natural gas heater - should we do it during or after (again wondering if we can consolidate inspections & permits involved). Is this something we should wait on until the pool build is all done?
* Water - We're thinking about having the water trucked in - at what point should we start trying to contact & schedule a company to do it?

I'm just having trouble with the list of events and things to do. Seems premature to contact electricians & water trucking company's(?) Also not sure when/how to pull gas & electricity permits (is that the same as the permit I got from the building department?)

Will we have an issue if we don't get everything lined up and the pool sits empty until the building inspector comes and gives up thumbs up on filling it with water?

BTW I know you guys can't speak to permits, because it's different per town, I'm just trying to get a general idea and wondering what others have done.

 

[JohnT]

I'd push the electrician to the top. If you get the pool in without a pump, you'll have a green mess. Water hauling is usually a day or two delivery.

 

[JasonLion]

If you are thinking about a gas heater then it will need electricity. Make sure there is enough power left over to run the heater. They are usually only an amp or two and often are on the same circuit with the pump. But if you cut the pump circuit to close there may not be anything left over for the heater. In some cases the heater may require a separate circuit. In either case mention it to the electrician and they will know what to do.

Electrical and gas typically need separate trenches with a required minimum separation. If they aren't done at the same time, make sure you know where the electrical is so the gas line can be placed appropriately.

Getting gas approval can occasionally take some time, particularly if you need a new gas meter. Where I am you have the plumber run the gas line and then get approval to connect it to the gas supply.

In a few areas the building permit has a deadline and if you don't finish by the deadline there can be problems. In other areas they are happy to let you take as long as it takes.

 

[katkami]

Thanks! Wow for whatever reason I wasn't thinking about the fact that the heater will also require electricity (duh)!

So I'm wondering if this would be a step by step timeline type scenario:

* Have the pool (& deck) installed
* Get the town come to inspect the pool
* Have the gas person come and run the pipe
* Have the electrician come and wire everything
* Get the town to come and inspect the gas & electricty
* Add water

But then I worry if there's too long a time span between having the pool installed & adding water, that I could run into problems -also - does the electrician need the water in order to determine if the pump is working properly?

 

[JasonLion]

The pump can be turned on for several seconds even if totally dry. That should be enough for the electrician.

It is best to fill the pool right after it is put up, since the water holds everything in place. With some care it can be put up and left empty, but there is a chance of things shifting or getting blown over.

I would figure out exactly where everything is going to go, then do electrical and optionally gas to the equipment pad complete with any required approvals, then put up the pool.

 

[katkami]

Woah the electrical and gas first - I hadn't ever even thought of that. So that would be to say I would do the following:

* Have the gas person come and run the pipe
* Have the electrician come and wire everything
* Get the town to come and inspect the gas & electricty
* Have the pool (& deck) installed
* Get the town come to inspect the pool
* Add water

I should mention that we need to have a little escavating done (2' slope) - if we did the electrical beforehand, couldn't that interfere with the escavating?

Re: The equipment pad (another thing I hadn't thought of) - is this something we'd need to construct? What type of materials would you recommend for this? I could've sworn the installer (installing pool AND deck) - said that he would build an equipment pad also - which might also mean I'd have to do the electrical after the fact.

 

[NWMNMom]

Not possible to try and get these guys out at the same time or about the time the pool is nearly finished? I believe you will need to have the permits before you start anything - and they are correct, do not put the pool up without filling it. Even if you get 1' of water in the bottom, that helps although if a big wind comes there is a risk. The walls are really meant to have water in there for support. Hot windy days can also dry out that liner and make it brittle if it sits for many days uncovered without water and you want it fresh and supple -

HOWEVER, keep in mind that sunny and warm is the BEST weather for putting that liner in so that it stretches into place. Even warm without the sun can be a problem - those liners like sun to relax them and allow the correct amount of stretch. They are always a bit on the snug/tight side just a bit away from the cove/bottom edge until they begin to fill and then they stretch into place. If its a LOT, then something is wrong. If it sits all the way around with lots of wrinkles before water is in, also a problem and probably too big for your pool. Once that is in and secured, water should follow ASAP.

 

[Hotrod30]

A lot of towns will want to know who is doing the electrical and gas work. If you can tell them a name and that they are licensed to work in the town, the town inspector will hardy look at the job. Like it was said, the PB won't let the pool just sit there with no water in it, so it might be a couple of days until the pump and heater are ready. The gas company will probably be the same; licensed installer ---- no problem. When you hire the contractors; tell them what you are doing and they will tell you how they want to do it. Have the pump size and the heater size so they can plan their job.

The town will probably look more at the deck (above 3 foot high... need a railling and railling for the stairs, in this town). Also the gates; lockable, maybe. Many towns don't consider an AB for permits; but the deck is different.

Don't forget an outlet on the deck.

Usually, the town inspector will be able to tell you all the permits you need. The other contractors will also tell you if you need permits. This town; if you did everything yourself, the town inspector would check the job better. License contractors; very little trouble.

 

[katkami]

Hi guys,

Thanks again. Ya - obviously the goal would be to get people out ASAP, but with contractors, I know that's always very difficult to pull off. I realized the walls & structure would have issues w/o water but didn't think about the liner - thanks. Hopefully won't be an issue, I'm just trying to cover all the angles.

I think I've got my mind set on a "heat pump" now - which eliminates the need for a plumber. I talked to the pool guy and he said I'll want the electrician to come after the install, but I can have it roughed out beforehand, so therefore, I'd ideally have the following:

* Have the electrician come and rough out the wiring (if possible)
* Have the pool (& deck) installed
* Get the town come to inspect the pool
* Add water
* Have the electrician come and finish everything
* Get the town to come and inspect the finished electricty (if necessary)

I think I'm covered on all the deck requirements - my town requires 4' clearance to the top of the deck, a lock at the top of the steps (on the back of the door). My installer said he's familiar with all the requirements and it shouldn't be an issue.

And yeah - we definitely want an outlet on the deck, but weren't thinking of wiring pool lights - just going with something solar or rechargeable, but now that I think about it - is that a good idea? Should I look into decent pool lights?

 

[ssabin]

My Suggestion

I installed an AG pool last year, so I can understand your dilemma on the order of events. One important detail is the recommendation of your city's inspectors. Mine wanted to schedule the final inspections for pool, electrical, and gas for the same day. The pool and electrical inspector were in fact the same person, while the gas inspector was different. Ask your town for the recommended inspection sequence. Another important aspect is to ask your city if your pool permit requires a separate electrical or if it includes that.

Like HotRod30 said, it is more likely that your deck will be more closely scrutinized than your pool or appliances.

I did not build a deck, and in fact am planning that for this spring. You don't have to do the deck right along with the pool unless you want to avoid the AG entry ladder purchase. This is an important decision as to how your project will be inspected though.

Here is my recommended sequence of events:
1) Finalize your plan. Get an idea of where you want your trenches run, deck placed, equipment placed, etc.
2) Call your underground utility locating service to mark your relevant underground utilities. Revise your plan if appropriate.
3) Contact your local building department and get a better understanding of the permits required and the necessary inspections. Don't be afraid to ask them how their process works. They are usually much more understanding of people asking for direction than of people asking for forgiveness.
4) Schedule the pool installation itself. This will probably be a one day thing. Getting the pool filled is really part of the pool installation. In my area, installations get booked up quickly, so you really can't get this done too soon, but schedule it for when you will really be ready.
5) Arrange for trench preparation. You didn't seem to have this planned, and neither the gas installer nor the electrician will assume this work, and you will pay a big premium to have them do this. It would be better to have someone hired specifically to dig your trenches. Even if you don't need a gas line, you will need a trench for your electrical service. Or at least be clear with your contractors that you will need this trench dug too. And if the trenches are very long, you will need to plan on repairing sprinkler lines and possibly wiring.
6) Have your electrical installed. If your pump motor is plugged into an outlet, you can simply have your outlet for the pump installed. If you have a hard-wired pump motor, you will need to have your pump installed at this stage. Most heaters also are hard-wired and will have to be installed too at this point. If your pool builder prefers this equipment not in his way, then you need to get the electrical work scheduled for the day following pool installation.
7) Install and fill the pool.
8) Connect gas to heater if you go that route.
9) Notify city that work is complete and inspection can take place.
10) Pull permit for deck, build, and have it inspected.

You could also get the deck permit and plan for it in parallel with these other steps, but you really need to have the pool and eqipment in place before starting to build the deck.

As far as the electrical work goes, you will likely need 2 separate circuits at a minimum. That's because only the smallest pool pump motors will have a plate rating of less than 10A. Any single motor load which is more than 50% of a circuit's ampacity rating must be installed as the only load on that circuit. Your electrician will know this, but I thought I'd give you a heads up. You will also need to install a general purpose outlet with an outdoor cover. You should locate that where it will be accessible to the deck, for your convenience. This might be the best reason to build the deck before you get the other inspections.

On my particular installation, I did trenching and electrical work myself. I dug two trenches (one for electrical, the other for the gas line) that ran about 165 feet. I had 12 sprinkler lines and a 14-conductor sprinkler control wire to repair after cutting the trenches, so this was by far the worst part of the prject. Your total cost for having these services installed will be a function of how long the runs are. My gas line was installed by a gas line contractor as only licensed individuals can buy the gas line in Michigan. These guys were impressed by the quality of my trenches and took off a few hundred dollars because they literally only had to lay the line and make the connections.

Since I did the electrical work myself, I obviously did not get the trenches dug and electrical service installed in a single day. Rather, I ran my pump on low speed with an extension cord coupled to a homemade plug adaptor to adapt the extension cord to a twist lock connector. I double-checked my outdoor outlet's GFI before doing that, but I was able to run my pump and filter until I got the proper electrical service installed. Also, my two-speed pump would not run on high speed with this long extension cord as the voltage drop across the extension cord was too much, but all was good after I got the real service installed. You really do need to have the pump running right away unless you want to clean up a mess in your pool. I know what I'm doing with electricty, but I wouldn't advise anyone else to do it this way. Just plan on the electrical going in right after the pool is installed. An electrician and a helper could do this in a single day if the trench was ready and the final junction box locations already installed (posts in the ground).

Good luck on your project!

 

[katkami]

wow thanks ssabin for that great informative post! I wish I noticed it a little sooner! Here's where I'm at atm:

* The installation is scheduled for next week, which will include the deck.
* The town is scheduled to come out twice, once during escavation and again at the end (most likely to scrutinze the deck like you mentioned)

... BUT - the electrician (who's going to handle the separate electrical permits) "might not" be able to come until the following week! Figures huh? I'm still squaring that part away. I did have one electrician give me a quote which did not include trenching, but "assumed" the other one we're talking to was going to do it - I'm going to call up and verify that per your recommendation.

Good to know that I have the possibility of running an extension cord in the meantime.

We opted out of getting the gas heater - instead - we're getting a Heat Pump which has some electrical ramifications (and cost - lol), but saves all the piping concerns.

STRESSED OUT atm!!