New to this group and desperately need CYA\Cl help...

[ED-209]

I hate to go right into my problems\details vs. saying Hi and Thanks for having me but I am desperate :? ...so I apologize for this LOOOOOOOOONG post but just trying not to leave anything out...

Hopefully I read enough to know what I need to post

I've been reading as many posts as I can in regards to High levels of CYA and having to keep the FC levels higher due to high CYA but it's been almost a month since I bought a 25 lb bucket of granular 65% Cl and I only have about 1/4 left.

Ok, I'll try to get to the point but do want to give some background. I've been around pools all my life and understood the basics of having Cl in the pool and the Ph at a certain level but that was about it. I live in FL and have very hot and humid summers so for the past 2 summers it's been a struggle to keep out algae, and seemed like if I just let it go for a week, I would begin to see green forming around the ladder, in the step crevices and around the pool light, etc. not much but enough to where I could brush and get that green dust cloud, so I would shock, vacuum out and then rinse and repeat.

So starting this past December, I had enough, I began learning everything I could on pool chemistry and how each item related and affected each other. I figured I first should be a good test kit as the Red and Yellow was just not cutting it, especially since I wanted to begin knowing the actual levels vs. just trying to guess with colors. I was close to getting a Taylor kit but then was able to get the Lamotte ColorQ 2056 kit from Amazon for about $118 and went with that. I then started constantly testing it a minimum of each week and then following the chemical dosage recommendations from the onlinepoolcalculator site. Things seemed to be going ok, my Cl FC reading was very high at first (around 8 to 9) and then all of a sudden started dropping each week until starting in January I just couldn't seem to keep the levels above 1.0 and I was under the impression that it was easy to keep Cl when the water was colder, so as the weeks went on, it didn't matter how much granular Cl I put in, each week and sometimes twice a week the Cl levels would be lower than 1.0, so off I went to the pool company to get some answers.

I went to two different places and both told me the same, that it sounds like my CYA is too high and that is the problem and that I would need to drain my pool a little at a time or down to the skimmers due to having a vinyl liner and would have to do this repeatedly until my CYA levels came down. Also they told me that most granulars sold by Chains have stabilizer in it which meant the more I shocked the higher I was making the CYA levels and of course when I looked at the granular I was using, it did in fact have stabilizer in it, so bought a 25lb tub of just 65% Hypo they sold.

So that weekend I started and would drain from the skimmer, closing the main drain, until the level got below the skimmer, then turn the pump off and fill and did this about 6 times that weekend. I didn't know to dilute my samples to get an accurate reading (duh moment) as every time I tested my CYA levels it would just say Hi. After that weekend of draining I diluted the sample (1 part pool water and 2 parts distilled water) and tested and got the result 45, so times that by 3 and got 135 and then figured I would start checking forums to see if there were any other options...

I found several threads here and other places about using plastic sheeting, etc. and then found the Best Guess posts about having to maintain higher levels of Cl with higher levels of CYA and figured perfect, this is what I can do as it seemed like the draining option wasn't doing anything....

So starting 3/21 when the CYA reading was 135, I used the granular that had no stabilizer in it and is 65% and added 120 oz (which from the pool calculator said that was 40ppm for my 15,500 gallon pool using 65% with a current reading of 0 FC.

Ever since getting this new Variable Flow Pump, I run it on the schedule below which turns it almost 4 times (I think) and the 4 hours at 2100 RPM's is to run the skimmers good:
From 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. 1000 RPM's
From 4:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. 2100 RPM's
From 8:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. 1000 RPM's

On 3/24 my readings were as follow:
FC: 5.59
TC: 5.89
CC: .30
PH: 7.1
ALK: 89
CYA: 160 (diluted by half this time and didn't have any tablets so not sure why it went up or if my other result was off)
CH (don't test, was told doesn't really matter if using vinyl, of course probably wrong but did want to say why I wasn't listing these results)

So from these results I added 27 oz of granular based on the poolcalculator, trying to get the FC to 15ppm and added 152 oz of Borax (finally learned about that the other week )

I then figured I should be ok for at least a week, WRONG!!!! on 3/31 my readings were as follow:
FC: 0.00
TC: 0.00
CC: 0.00
PH: 7.4
ALK: 120
CYA: 164

So from these results I added 75 oz based on doing a shock to get FC to 25ppm according to thepoolcalculator. I also added 4 Tri tablets to chlorinator since it's been empty for almost 2 weeks and added 8 oz of algaecide as just a weekly maintenance dose.

I hadn't had a visible breakout of algae but it seems no matter what I do that when I brush around the edges of the skimmer and inside that I will ALWAYS get a little green dust. My pool is and has been clear since I started doing this weekly in December and I run my Polaris about once a week due to leaves blowing in but soon I am getting a screen pool cage.

Ok, this time I wasn't going to wait another week, I only waited 2 days or today and just tested the FC and the reading was already down to .13?????? I am getting so frustrated and don't know what else to do as I can't afford to be putting this much Cl in it every 2 days as the 25lb bucket of granular is about $60 a pop and I can't drain it more than about 4 inches at a time and after I put water back in, am I even pumping out the CYA or just the water I am putting back in? Should I get a different kit, the Taylor one where it just tests the Cl via the FAS-DPD to better track without having to dilute or is the ColorQ accurate?

So today I put in about another 100 oz of granular and was going to check it again tomorrow but I just came across some other posts saying that if the CYA readings are over 100 that I actually need to shock it around 40ppm which I was just doing 25ppm when I was at 0 and 15ppm when I actually had a reading.

Well that's it and I am sorry for the too long of a post but wanted to give all the information I have so that the experts can do their thing.

I believe I listed any and all information but if you need anything else or have any other questions, just let me know and again thanks for this forum and happy to be a member.

Update: One last question\note, when the CYA level is this high or as high as mine is, is it safe to be in the pool if I have FC levels of 15 or so or does the CYA dilute the Cl to make it safe or comparable to when you have normal CYA levels and FC levels in the 1.0 - 3.0 range? It just seems like 15 is high and would be dangerous if any water gets in the eyes, or hair or that it would bleach the swimsuits?

ED-209

 

[linen]

Welcome to tfp, ED-209

I read your post and I am going to try to keep this short.

1. CYA. You have hit it on the head, your CYA is too high and from your FC loss, I would guess you have orgainics growing in your pool. You need to drain and replace some more water to get your CYA down. I am not positive about the lamote colorq, but most test methods for CYA are not accurate above 100 ppm. The draining you have done has had a minimal effect on your CYA since you were not removing much water each time. I would recommended doing a 50% dilution this time (note: you never want to fully drain a vinyl lined pool, or most likely you will have to replace the liner). Then you can test CYA again and see where you are. Stop using the trichlor and dichlor, both add CYA to your pool.

2. Test kit. The lamote colorq is okay, but you will benefit from a better kit. See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/pool_test_kit_comparison . From that article:

The LaMotte ColorQ series offers a plausible choice for people who are color blind and can not read the standard color comparison based PH test. The ColorQ series does suffer from several limitations, notably none of the test results are reliable when the FC level is above 10, or the CH level is above 400. Also the CYA test is a little finicky and has less precision than you really need.

Buy a better kit. I like the tf100!

3. CH level. High CH still can cause scaling on all surfaces even for vinyl pools. Since you have been using the 65% calhypo a lot, you probably have high calcium so you lamote colorq will not be accurate.

4. Bleach/Liquid Chlorine. Is all you need to get your pool clean and also for long term maintenance. Forget the trichlor, dichlor, and calhypo...those have just gotten you into trouble.


And to answer your question:

Update: One last question\note, when the CYA level is this high or as high as mine is, is it safe to be in the pool if I have FC levels of 15 or so or does the CYA dilute the Cl to make it safe or comparable to when you have normal CYA levels and FC levels in the 1.0 - 3.0 range? It just seems like 15 is high and would be dangerous if any water gets in the eyes, or hair or that it would bleach the swimsuits?

The high CYA does not dilute, but "binds" some of the chlorine and holds it in reserve, so if you CYA level is accurate (i.e. not lower than you have measured) then you can safely swim up to shock level. HOWEVER, since you have been using a lot of chlorine and from what you tell us it is being used up really fast, you probably have organics (algae) in the pool. Fix that before swimming. How does you water look?

Read, read, and read poolschool. Maybe start with this article: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/types_chlorine_pool

 

[jblizzle]

Welcome
Thanks for the detailed report ... very nice to have a good background to start with.

I was reading your post on my phone and came into the office to write a response as I did not want to type that much via the phone. Looks like by the time I got here you already had a great response that pretty much says exactly what I was going to.

Get a good test.
Replace a lot of water to lower CYA and most likely CH.
Go through the Shock Process to Defeat Algae
Ditch the tabs/powders and stick to bleach.

There is a lot of great reading to do in the Pool School as found at the top right of the page.

We will get you straightened out.

 

[ED-209]

Thank you so much for the quick info and help and I appreciate your patience.

I feel like I am an overall smart guy and with patience I seem to be able to learn most things but this pool stuff is killing me and feel like the pool is laughing at me.

Ok, in regards to draining, I've read and been told many things here recently like I can't drain but down to maybe the 1st step as well as I need to be draining from the skimmers. So with the advice above, I am reading this to mean that I can actually drain 50% of the pool without having to worry about the liner messing up? My pool is about 3.5 ft on the ends and about 5.5 ft in the middle, so in relation to the steps, would I go down to the bottom of the 2nd step or the 3rd step and would I just then drain from the main drains vs. the skimmers?

I was afraid that this digital tester would be too good to be true I'll check out the TF100...

I went out and looked at the pool and did notice a lot of dust type of dirt on the bottom of the pool and I "think" it might be dead algae as we haven't had much wind today and I ran the polaris this past weekend and there wasn't hardly anything on the bottom. Overall though it has been pretty clear for quite a while, with the exception of when I brush any types of cracks\crevices, especially the outside and inner sides of the skimmer where the fuzzy liner is as that has always been had green dust come off of it.

I also just re-tested the Cl levels to see and the readings are as follow:
FC: 18.86
TC: 19.80
CC: 00.94

So just a few more F\U questions..

With the CC being over .50, does that mean I need to shock again and if so would it be again at a 39ppm?

Am I able to use the remaining granular 65% that doesn't have stabilizer or do I need to immediately stop using it as well as the tabs (darn it I just bought these tabs )

If I am not going to be using a chlorinator, will that mean I spend more in adding Cl to the pool daily to keep the FC in line?

So once I have the levels in the correct range based on the CYA level, is it then just a matter of adding here and there to maintain that range UNLESS the CC gets to be .50 or higher?

Where is the best place to by Bleach or just any Grocery store?

How often should I be testing the chemicals?

Are algaecides and or clarifiers needed?


Thanks again so much for the help and information, I hope I am not the first to have wasted this much thinking I am doing right and good but after using the Borax vs. all the PH Increaser I have used in the past, makes me feel that the BBB method is better for me, just trying to get out of this habit of using the chemicals and advice from the local "trustworthy" pool companies.

ED-209

 

[zea3]

Hi, welcome to TFP! I will comment inside your post in red.

I hate to go right into my problems\details vs. saying Hi and Thanks for having me but I am desperate :? ...so I apologize for this LOOOOOOOOONG post but just trying not to leave anything out...

Hopefully I read enough to know what I need to post

I've been reading as many posts as I can in regards to High levels of CYA and having to keep the FC levels higher due to high CYA but it's been almost a month since I bought a 25 lb bucket of granular 65% Cl and I only have about 1/4 left.

Ok, I'll try to get to the point but do want to give some background. I've been around pools all my life and understood the basics of having Cl in the pool and the Ph at a certain level but that was about it. I live in FL and have very hot and humid summers so for the past 2 summers it's been a struggle to keep out algae, and seemed like if I just let it go for a week, I would begin to see green forming around the ladder, in the step crevices and around the pool light, etc. not much but enough to where I could brush and get that green dust cloud, so I would shock, vacuum out and then rinse and repeat.

So starting this past December, I had enough, I began learning everything I could on pool chemistry and how each item related and affected each other. I figured I first should be a good test kit as the Red and Yellow was just not cutting it, especially since I wanted to begin knowing the actual levels vs. just trying to guess with colors. I was close to getting a Taylor kit but then was able to get the Lamotte ColorQ 2056 kit from Amazon for about $118 and went with that. I then started constantly testing it a minimum of each week and then following the chemical dosage recommendations from the onlinepoolcalculator site. Things seemed to be going ok, my Cl FC reading was very high at first (around 8 to 9) and then all of a sudden started dropping each week until starting in January I just couldn't seem to keep the levels above 1.0 and I was under the impression that it was easy to keep Cl when the water was colder, so as the weeks went on, it didn't matter how much granular Cl I put in, each week and sometimes twice a week the Cl levels would be lower than 1.0, so off I went to the pool company to get some answers.

I went to two different places and both told me the same, that it sounds like my CYA is too high and that is the problem and that I would need to drain my pool a little at a time or down to the skimmers due to having a vinyl liner and would have to do this repeatedly until my CYA levels came down. Also they told me that most granulars sold by Chains have stabilizer in it which meant the more I shocked the higher I was making the CYA levels and of course when I looked at the granular I was using, it did in fact have stabilizer in it, so bought a 25lb tub of just 65% Hypo they sold.

You can drain a vinyl pool down to about a foot of water in the shallowest portion of the pool safely, as long as there is not a high water table that will cause the liner to float. If you notice the liner start to shift while draining stop draining the water.
As for the chlorine, there are 2 dry chlorines that are widely available. Dichlor/Trichlor and Calcium Hypochlorite. Dichlor/Trichlor contain CYA which will accumulate in the pool. It does not evaporate out of the water, and as you know, excess CYA increases the recommended chlorine level and makes fighting algae difficult. Calcium Hypochlorite (cal-hypo) contains calcium and will raise the calcium level in the water. Calcium also does not evaporate out, and in high concentrations can cause scale formation, even in a vinyl pool. You need to know your calcium (CH) levels so you will know if it is getting too high. We recommend liquid chlorine to complete the shock process with your pool. Liquid chlorine does not add any CYA or Calcium to the water, and can be purchased in 10-12% jugs sold at pool stores, or 6% plain bleach sold at the grocery store.

So that weekend I started and would drain from the skimmer, closing the main drain, until the level got below the skimmer, then turn the pump off and fill and did this about 6 times that weekend. I didn't know to dilute my samples to get an accurate reading (duh moment) as every time I tested my CYA levels it would just say Hi. After that weekend of draining I diluted the sample (1 part pool water and 2 parts distilled water) and tested and got the result 45, so times that by 3 and got 135 and then figured I would start checking forums to see if there were any other options...

I found several threads here and other places about using plastic sheeting, etc. and then found the Best Guess posts about having to maintain higher levels of Cl with higher levels of CYA and figured perfect, this is what I can do as it seemed like the draining option wasn't doing anything....

So starting 3/21 when the CYA reading was 135, I used the granular that had no stabilizer in it and is 65% and added 120 oz (which from the pool calculator said that was 40ppm for my 15,500 gallon pool using 65% with a current reading of 0 FC.

Ever since getting this new Variable Flow Pump, I run it on the schedule below which turns it almost 4 times (I think) and the 4 hours at 2100 RPM's is to run the skimmers good:
From 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. 1000 RPM's
From 4:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. 2100 RPM's
From 8:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. 1000 RPM's

On 3/24 my readings were as follow:
FC: 5.59
TC: 5.89
CC: .30
PH: 7.1
ALK: 89
CYA: 160 (diluted by half this time and didn't have any tablets so not sure why it went up or if my other result was off)
CH (don't test, was told doesn't really matter if using vinyl, of course probably wrong but did want to say why I wasn't listing these results)

So from these results I added 27 oz of granular based on the poolcalculator, trying to get the FC to 15ppm and added 152 oz of Borax (finally learned about that the other week )

Hold off on adding any more Borax or other additives until you have completed the shock process.

I then figured I should be ok for at least a week, WRONG!!!! on 3/31 my readings were as follow:
FC: 0.00
TC: 0.00
CC: 0.00
PH: 7.4
ALK: 120
CYA: 164

When you are in the shock process, you should be testing the pool hourly and raising the FC to shock level until the demand seems to slow down. When the pool is clear you should test once a day for a couple of weeks until you learn how your pool acts. You should be adding chlorine every couple of days to keep within your operating range. If you let the FC fall below the recommended range you are at risk of developing another algae bloom. Please read through Pool School especially the sections on defeating algae and the overnight chlorine loss test.

So from these results I added 75 oz based on doing a shock to get FC to 25ppm according to thepoolcalculator. I also added 4 Tri tablets to chlorinator since it's been empty for almost 2 weeks and added 8 oz of algaecide as just a weekly maintenance dose.

Using the pool calculator and your last posted test results, I show you have a shock target level of 36 ppm. You need to bring the pool to shock level and keep it there until you pass the overnight test. Also those tri tablets contain CYA and each tablet adds approximately 3 ppm to the pool by the time it has dissolved. Do not add any more algaecide. It is a mild preventative at best and will not help clear a pool with active algae present.

I hadn't had a visible breakout of algae but it seems no matter what I do that when I brush around the edges of the skimmer and inside that I will ALWAYS get a little green dust. My pool is and has been clear since I started doing this weekly in December and I run my Polaris about once a week due to leaves blowing in but soon I am getting a screen pool cage.

If you see green in nooks and crannies you have active algae in the pool that you are just keeping at bay with the current levels of chlorine. As the water gets warmer it will become more difficult to control the algae blooms unless you complete the shock process and get rid of it. When you say the water is clear, how clear is it? Is it almost like looking in an empty pool, or is it a dull, cloudy appearance?

Ok, this time I wasn't going to wait another week, I only waited 2 days or today and just tested the FC and the reading was already down to .13?????? I am getting so frustrated and don't know what else to do as I can't afford to be putting this much Cl in it every 2 days as the 25lb bucket of granular is about $60 a pop and I can't drain it more than about 4 inches at a time and after I put water back in, am I even pumping out the CYA or just the water I am putting back in? Should I get a different kit, the Taylor one where it just tests the Cl via the FAS-DPD to better track without having to dilute or is the ColorQ accurate?

Grocery store plain, unscented bleach will be the most affordable source of chlorine you can use to complete the shock process. Once the algae is gone the chlorine demand will drop. When your Lamotte test is depleted, I recommend the TF100 FAS-DPD test kit. It will allow you to test high levels of chlorine.

So today I put in about another 100 oz of granular and was going to check it again tomorrow but I just came across some other posts saying that if the CYA readings are over 100 that I actually need to shock it around 40ppm which I was just doing 25ppm when I was at 0 and 15ppm when I actually had a reading.

As I stated earlier, your shock level is 36 ppm, so if you were targeting 25 ppm that was not high enough to kill off the algae. CYA can be tricky to test. It will not show up in the test until about 5-7 days after it was added to the pool.

Well that's it and I am sorry for the too long of a post but wanted to give all the information I have so that the experts can do their thing.

I believe I listed any and all information but if you need anything else or have any other questions, just let me know and again thanks for this forum and happy to be a member.

ED-209

Good luck with the pool and feel free to post any questions you may have.

 

[jblizzle]

I think zea addressed most of these questions before you had even asked, but I will step through this one :-D

Thank you so much for the quick info and help and I appreciate your patience.

I feel like I am an overall smart guy and with patience I seem to be able to learn most things but this pool stuff is killing me and feel like the pool is laughing at me.

Ok, in regards to draining, I've read and been told many things here recently like I can't drain but down to maybe the 1st step as well as I need to be draining from the skimmers. So with the advice above, I am reading this to mean that I can actually drain 50% of the pool without having to worry about the liner messing up? My pool is about 3.5 ft on the ends and about 5.5 ft in the middle, so in relation to the steps, would I go down to the bottom of the 2nd step or the 3rd step and would I just then drain from the main drains vs. the skimmers?

Leave at least 1 foot of water in the shallow end unless the liner starts to move

I was afraid that this digital tester would be too good to be true I'll check out the TF100...

Great kit (may opt for the larger one that has extra chems for shocking)

I went out and looked at the pool and did notice a lot of dust type of dirt on the bottom of the pool and I "think" it might be dead algae as we haven't had much wind today and I ran the polaris this past weekend and there wasn't hardly anything on the bottom. Overall though it has been pretty clear for quite a while, with the exception of when I brush any types of cracks\crevices, especially the outside and inner sides of the skimmer where the fuzzy liner is as that has always been had green dust come off of it.

I also just re-tested the Cl levels to see and the readings are as follow:
FC: 18.86
TC: 19.80
CC: 00.94

If you are seeing any algae or CC>0.5 you need to do the shocking process until it is ALL GONE

So just a few more F\U questions..

With the CC being over .50, does that mean I need to shock again and if so would it be again at a 39ppm?

39ppm is what the table says for a CYA of 100 ... the shock level is actually about 40% of your CYA so at 160 your shock level would by 64ppm ( you can see why you want to get your CYA level down before doing this right?)

Am I able to use the remaining granular 65% that doesn't have stabilizer or do I need to immediately stop using it as well as the tabs (darn it I just bought these tabs )

Measure you CH after re filling ... if it is low enough you may be able to use the Cal Hypo ... but try not to let the the CH get too high. The tri tabs are just going to raise the CYA again so you may want to put them on CL (is that an appropriate thing to recommend on these boards :lol: )

If I am not going to be using a chlorinator, will that mean I spend more in adding Cl to the pool daily to keep the FC in line?

So once I have the levels in the correct range based on the CYA level, is it then just a matter of adding here and there to maintain that range UNLESS the CC gets to be .50 or higher?

You will probably be spending less money, but more time as the FC must be added just about every day ... thus the reason SWG are so loved as they add the FC. Once the pool is under control you will get a feel for what it needs and when.

Where is the best place to by Bleach or just any Grocery store?

How often should I be testing the chemicals?

Are algaecides and or clarifiers needed?

Lots of people like the Walmart bleach as it is pretty cheap. If you find a good cheap source of 10% or 12% that would be fewer bottles to carry. Test often (daily) and dose based on poolcalculator.com. Never buy any of the chems that pool stores say you need ... unless it is liquid chlorine.

ED-209

 

[linen]

I see jbliz beat me too the punch and covered you questions well, but since I wrote it, I will post :lol:

With the CC being over .50, does that mean I need to shock again and if so would it be again at a 39ppm?

Yes you need to shock, but I would do the drain and refill first (see zea's comments above about the drain amount).

Am I able to use the remaining granular 65% that doesn't have stabilizer or do I need to immediately stop using it as well as the tabs (darn it I just bought these tabs )

I would stop using both for now until you have a better test kit and know where your CH and CYA really are.

If I am not going to be using a chlorinator, will that mean I spend more in adding Cl to the pool daily to keep the FC in line?

Yes, though most people find this expense is typically no more than using tabs.

So once I have the levels in the correct range based on the CYA level, is it then just a matter of adding here and there to maintain that range UNLESS the CC gets to be .50 or higher?

Or your water looks strange, or you FC drops too quickly.

Where is the best place to by Bleach or just any Grocery store?

Wherever you can get tried and true Clorox brand. You could also look into liquid chlorine costs.

How often should I be testing the chemicals?

See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/basic_pool_care_schedule

Are algaecides and or clarifiers needed?

For most situations, they are not needed.

 

[ED-209]

Thanks so much for your help, another few follow up questions and put them below your info\recommendations to try to make it easier

You can drain a vinyl pool down to about a foot of water in the shallowest portion of the pool safely, as long as there is not a high water table that will cause the liner to float. If you notice the liner start to shift while draining stop draining the water.

So if my shallowest part of the pool, not counting the steps, is 3.5 ft I should be able to drain down to 2.5 ft? So if the recommendation is to drain it by 50%, would I do this drain, then test the CYA and keep doing until it's at a certain point and what's a good CYA level?

What do you mean by high water table, I am not sure what that means?

Also, once I beat this CYA thing, will I ever need to raise the CYA and if so, what do I use or do I then just buy Stabilizer powder?

Using the pool calculator and your last posted test results, I show you have a shock target level of 36 ppm. You need to bring the pool to shock level and keep it there until you pass the overnight test. Also those tri tablets contain CYA and each tablet adds approximately 3 ppm to the pool by the time it has dissolved. Do not add any more algaecide. It is a mild preventative at best and will not help clear a pool with active algae present.

How did you come up with 36 ppm? I went to the CYA\Cl chart at chlorine-cya-chart-t2346.html and with a CYA of 160 it shows my Shock needs to be 64ppm, so wouldn't that mean that in the poolcalculator I would put Target as 64ppm and then my current reading?

If you see green in nooks and crannies you have active algae in the pool that you are just keeping at bay with the current levels of chlorine. As the water gets warmer it will become more difficult to control the algae blooms unless you complete the shock process and get rid of it. When you say the water is clear, how clear is it? Is it almost like looking in an empty pool, or is it a dull, cloudy appearance?

It's like looking in an empty pool when the water is calm with no wind and the pump isn't running high. I just noticed tonight though that it looks like a lot of dirt now on the bottom and possibly could be dead algae as it has a light brown color to it.

Grocery store plain, unscented bleach will be the most affordable source of chlorine you can use to complete the shock process. Once the algae is gone the chlorine demand will drop. When your Lamotte test is depleted, I recommend the TF100 FAS-DPD test kit. It will allow you to test high levels of chlorine.

Well I haven't used much as they had to send me a new kit due to the tubes started cracking, so I might just take a crack at selling on Amazon as Used for a really low price as I've sold some things there before so have a small rep. I went ahead and ordered the TF100 kit with the XL option as well as the magnetic stirrer.

 

[jblizzle]

I would drain about 50% and then test to see where you are at on the CYA. If it is still too high 70+, then you may want to do another drain.

Water table is the water under the ground. If the water table gets to be higher than the water level in your pool, there is a chance the pool could literally float out of the ground. Draining only a 1-2 feet is not likely a problem (although you are in FL, so your water table may be pretty high) ... have you dug any holes in your yard? Did they fill with water?

If you do happen to get to a CYA that is too low, you can add it with either stabilzer (powder/liquid) or use the tri-chlor tablets in moderation understanding what each one adds.

The 36ppm may have assumed after after a 50% water replace putting your CYA around 80.

You will like the stirrer ... very fun

 

[linen]

jbliz beat me again :-D ohh well, here is my two cents:

So if my shallowest part of the pool, not counting the steps, is 3.5 ft I should be able to drain down to 2.5 ft? So if the recommendation is to drain it by 50%, would I do this drain, then test the CYA and keep doing until it's at a certain point and what's a good CYA level?

You would repeat until your CYA is down to about 50 ppm. See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/recommended_levels

What do you mean by high water table, I am not sure what that means?

When you dig down do you hit water? Same for your pool, if you lower level below the local water table on the outside of you pool, you risk the liner floating off the sides/bottom.

Also, once I beat this CYA thing, will I ever need to raise the CYA and if so, what do I use or do I then just buy Stabilizer powder?

I use the powder.

How did you come up with 36 ppm? I went to the CYA\Cl chart at chlorine-cya-chart-t2346.html and with a CYA of 160 it shows my Shock needs to be 64ppm, so wouldn't that mean that in the poolcalculator I would put Target as 64ppm and then my current reading?

poolcalculator suggests 36 ppm. Either way, drain to reduce CYA first, then use the chart or the poolcalculator to find your new shock level (their recommendations are closer at lower CYA concentrations).

I went ahead and ordered the TF100 kit with the XL option as well as the magnetic stirrer.

Great choice! Post some numbers when you get it!

 

[jblizzle]

OK ... I am going to bed ... linen can answer the next one :lol:

 

[ED-209]

jblizzle and linen,

Thanks again so much for all the helpful information. I feel like just in the last hour or so I've learned more than I ever learned in the my entire pool maintaining career and all actually helpful information.

Got a few more questions before I head to bed and let my head stop spinning

Ok, with these SWG's, so essentially they produce ONLY Cl, nothing else like that contributes to Calcium Hardness or Stabilizer? Also, and forgive the ignorance, with using SWG, does that make your pool salty or like the ocean in regards to salt being all in the water? I am thinking they convert the salt and only the Cl goes into the pool but wasn't sure and if that's true, then I think I agree this is the best option and might look into switching out my Tab chlorinator as I think it would be cost efficient in the long run.

With the way I run my filter 4 hours on 2100 RPM and 18 hours on 1000 RPM, is that ok, or does it matter or is the basics on how often and how much to run pumps in pool school?

With me having raised the Cl levels to 18ish today, will draining this water kill my grass or should I just wait a day or so until the FC is low again?

In regards to the Water Table, I have never heard of this and honestly my pool has those fiberglass think reinforced walls and there was a really think footer of concreted poured around the walls and the braces and then the rest was filled in with dirt on the outside, maybe 2 or 3 ft. If I dig into the ground the initial 6 inches is moist but I've never hit water nor did I see any water get hit when they dug the initial hole for the pool. I also have an irrigation system as it gets really hot and humid here. I am truly petrified about messing something up trying to drain it, then having to get a new liner, the wife would kill me but I will measure a foot up from the shallowest end and then mark it to the steps. Does it matter where I drain from, example do I need to do it from the skimmers until the water level is below the skimmer or can I just drain it all from the main drain?

Sorry to keep asking so many questions but I promise you all the information you and others have recently posted I am actually comprehending and understanding and just feel stupid that I didn't come here in the first place but I told my wife tonight that I am gonna ask for help.

I will do and will keep updating this thread and hopefully will get maybe half my $ back on the ColorQ kit and maybe see if my Dad wants my Tabs and other granular with stabilizer in it as he has his way and nothing will ever change it.

Thanks again

 

[ED-209]

OK ... I am going to bed ... linen can answer the next one :lol:

LMAO, I know the feeling, fixing to head there myself and so happy\glad\relieved that I found this forum. Hopefully as time progresses I can beat this thing and then be able to share the wealth of knowledge

Have a good night sleep and thanks again.

 

[zea3]

Hi again, I was going by the pool calculator to get the shock level recommendation. You do have active algae, but by your description the pool is not pea-soup green, so I don't think you need to go as high as the CYA/Chlorine chart recommends for the shock process. Either recommendation will get your pool clear, but the pool calculator level will be a little less harsh for the liner. This recommendation is assuming you do not drain/refill. If you do drain more water, then after you get a new CYA level you can use the pool calculator to find your new shock level. If you decide to drain/refill more water, do not add anything to it until you are satisfied you have drained/refilled enough to reach your desired CYA level. Then post a complete set of test results and we can go from there.

jblizzle and linen,

Thanks again so much for all the helpful information. I feel like just in the last hour or so I've learned more than I ever learned in the my entire pool maintaining career and all actually helpful information.

Got a few more questions before I head to bed and let my head stop spinning

Ok, with these SWG's, so essentially they produce ONLY Cl, nothing else like that contributes to Calcium Hardness or Stabilizer? Also, and forgive the ignorance, with using SWG, does that make your pool salty or like the ocean in regards to salt being all in the water? I am thinking they convert the salt and only the Cl goes into the pool but wasn't sure and if that's true, then I think I agree this is the best option and might look into switching out my Tab chlorinator as I think it would be cost efficient in the long run.

The level of salt added to the pool is closer to the salt content of human tears than the salt content of the ocean. The SWG creates chlorine gas and injects it into the pool. The salt does not evaporate out, but is removed by splash-out or draining. You can do a google search on how a SWG works for more info.

With the way I run my filter 4 hours on 2100 RPM and 18 hours on 1000 RPM, is that ok, or does it matter or is the basics on how often and how much to run pumps in pool school?

During the shock process we recommend running the pump 24/7 on low speed to filter out as much dead algae as possible. Once the pool is clear you want to run the pump long enough to turn over the volume of the pool at least once per day. Slower is more efficient for both cost and water clarity. Once the shock process is complete you can experiment with run times and see what works best for your pool.

With me having raised the Cl levels to 18ish today, will draining this water kill my grass or should I just wait a day or so until the FC is low again?

If you decide to drain again let the FC drop below 10. I don't know how hearty your grass is so lower would be better. My grass has been ignored enough that it will survive anything! (Its survival of the fittest in my yard, so I don't give gardening advice!)

In regards to the Water Table, I have never heard of this and honestly my pool has those fiberglass think reinforced walls and there was a really think footer of concreted poured around the walls and the braces and then the rest was filled in with dirt on the outside, maybe 2 or 3 ft. If I dig into the ground the initial 6 inches is moist but I've never hit water nor did I see any water get hit when they dug the initial hole for the pool. I also have an irrigation system as it gets really hot and humid here. I am truly petrified about messing something up trying to drain it, then having to get a new liner, the wife would kill me but I will measure a foot up from the shallowest end and then mark it to the steps. Does it matter where I drain from, example do I need to do it from the skimmers until the water level is below the skimmer or can I just drain it all from the main drain?

You can use your main drain to drain the pool. As long as there have been no recent, heavy rains you should be ok with water table issues. Some locations the ground water is very close to the surface at all times, and other locations that only happens after a prolonged heavy rain.

Sorry to keep asking so many questions but I promise you all the information you and others have recently posted I am actually comprehending and understanding and just feel stupid that I didn't come here in the first place but I told my wife tonight that I am gonna ask for help.

I will do and will keep updating this thread and hopefully will get maybe half my $ back on the ColorQ kit and maybe see if my Dad wants my Tabs and other granular with stabilizer in it as he has his way and nothing will ever change it.

As long as you store the chemicals separately in a sealed container so they stay dry they will last for years. There may be times in the future when their use will be appropriate for short periods of time. Never, never store the cal-hypo and the dichlor/trichlor in the same container. Don't even use the same scoop to portion them out. Those chemicals do not play well together and will start a fire.

Thanks again

Good luck!

 

[ED-209]

Ok, I think luck is on my side today as we are forecasted to get rain all day so hopefully that will dilute the draining water enough to prevent my grass from dying.

Onto more questions when anyone has the time, the 1st couple are from my last post that I still need some guidance on

Ok, with these SWG's, so essentially they produce ONLY Cl, nothing else like that contributes to Calcium Hardness or Stabilizer? Also, and forgive the ignorance, with using SWG, does that make your pool salty or like the ocean in regards to salt being all in the water? I am thinking they convert the salt and only the Cl goes into the pool but wasn't sure and if that's true, then I think I agree this is the best option and might look into switching out my Tab chlorinator as I think it would be cost efficient in the long run.

With the way I run my filter 4 hours on 2100 RPM and 18 hours on 1000 RPM, is that ok, or does it matter or is the basics on how often and how much to run pumps in pool school?

With me having raised the Cl levels to 18ish today, will draining this water kill my grass or should I just wait a day or so until the FC is low again?

In regards to the Water Table, I have never heard of this and honestly my pool has those fiberglass think reinforced walls and there was a really think footer of concreted poured around the walls and the braces and then the rest was filled in with dirt on the outside, maybe 2 or 3 ft. If I dig into the ground the initial 6 inches is moist but I've never hit water nor did I see any water get hit when they dug the initial hole for the pool. I also have an irrigation system as it gets really hot and humid here. I am truly petrified about messing something up trying to drain it, then having to get a new liner, the wife would kill me but I will measure a foot up from the shallowest end and then mark it to the steps. Does it matter where I drain from, example do I need to do it from the skimmers until the water level is below the skimmer or can I just drain it all from the main drain?


New questions...

Ok I have a variable speed pump and I set it to 800 RPM while draining to waste and that seems to about match the flow from my garden hose, so my question is, Is it best to do this continuous drain where I am draining the pool from the bottom 2 main drains while filling from the top, via the hose and rain, or should I just drain it all (or down to 1 ft in the shallowest end and then refill and begin again?

I am not sure if my calculations are correct but at this RPM I believe the GPM is around 20 or so, so this puts me doing a full turn of the water about 11 or so hours and I went to the pool calculator and inputted a CYA of 160 and Target to 40 and it says I need to drain 75%, so would that mean that if I run the pump for 8.25 hours (11 x 75%) that would essentially mean that I've drained and replaced 75% of my pool water? I figured with adding water using the hose as well as the rain that doing the drain this way while continuously refilling would work with these calculations but again I am probably waaaaay off in assuming this.

Thanks again for the help

 

[linen]

Ok, with these SWG's, so essentially they produce ONLY Cl, nothing else like that contributes to Calcium Hardness or Stabilizer?

That is correct.

Also, and forgive the ignorance, with using SWG, does that make your pool salty or like the ocean in regards to salt being all in the water?

zea answered this above.

then I think I agree this is the best option and might look into switching out my Tab chlorinator as I think it would be cost efficient in the long run.

I and many others on here would agree with this statement.

With the way I run my filter 4 hours on 2100 RPM and 18 hours on 1000 RPM, is that ok, or does it matter or is the basics on how often and how much to run pumps in pool school?

http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/pump_run_time And see zea's comments.

With me having raised the Cl levels to 18ish today, will draining this water kill my grass or should I just wait a day or so until the FC is low again?

see zea's comments

In regards to the Water Table, I have never heard of this and honestly my pool has those fiberglass think reinforced walls and there was a really think footer of concreted poured around the walls and the braces and then the rest was filled in with dirt on the outside, maybe 2 or 3 ft. If I dig into the ground the initial 6 inches is moist but I've never hit water nor did I see any water get hit when they dug the initial hole for the pool. I also have an irrigation system as it gets really hot and humid here. I am truly petrified about messing something up trying to drain it, then having to get a new liner, the wife would kill me but I will measure a foot up from the shallowest end and then mark it to the steps. Does it matter where I drain from, example do I need to do it from the skimmers until the water level is below the skimmer or can I just drain it all from the main drain?

see zea's comments

Ok I have a variable speed pump and I set it to 800 RPM while draining to waste and that seems to about match the flow from my garden hose, so my question is, Is it best to do this continuous drain where I am draining the pool from the bottom 2 main drains while filling from the top, via the hose and rain, or should I just drain it all (or down to 1 ft in the shallowest end and then refill and begin again?

If you water table (height of water in the surrounding ground) is not high, then you will be most efficient by draining first and then refilling (you will get more reduction of CYA that way).

I am not sure if my calculations are correct but at this RPM I believe the GPM is around 20 or so, so this puts me doing a full turn of the water about 11 or so hours and I went to the pool calculator and inputted a CYA of 160 and Target to 40 and it says I need to drain 75%, so would that mean that if I run the pump for 8.25 hours (11 x 75%) that would essentially mean that I've drained and replaced 75% of my pool water? I figured with adding water using the hose as well as the rain that doing the drain this way while continuously refilling would work with these calculations but again I am probably waaaaay off in assuming this.

As zea mentioned, do not drain more than 1 foot above shallowest section. You will probably have to do another partial drain after refilling to hit your 40 ppm target. If you are bringing up your flow rates to be able to do the drain unattended, I wouldn't risk it.

 

[ED-209]

Thanks again zea and linen...

I apologize as I didn't read zea's reply this morning in detail to see that more answers were in the notes, sorry more of a night owl than morning person LOL.

Based on all the info\help, I'll go ahead and ramp up the pump to get the level down to the 1 ft on the shallowest, unless I see the liner really pulling away and then continue slowly draining to try to match the garden hose fill rate.

I am just glad I am doing this now vs. waiting even longer and spending even more money, man I've been wasting soooo much these past 2 years but everything is a learning experience I guess and from several posts I've read, it seems I am not alone which makes me feel somewhat better

Thanks again and I'll report back once I get this CYA down and get my new test kit, etc.

 

[jblizzle]

Just a little more info on the SWG.

They generally operate with salt around 3,500ppm and the ocean is around 35,000ppm. Most people can not tell it is salt water by taste or eyes ... I think I can discern a slight taste difference.

Using bleach actually adds salt to the pool and it is not uncommon for BBB'ers to end up with salt levels at 1000+ppm. Some people actually add salt to their pools around 2000ppm without a SWG just because it seems to make the water "feel" better and less drying.

Adding the salt does not affect CH or CYA levels but will affect the CSI of your water. Also note that if you are going to add a SWG, the recommended levels are a little different and the CYA is generally kept up around 70-80 whereas a bleach pool is kept around 30-50 ... see HERE for level recommendations. You may not need to drain as much water if you are going to add a SWG relatively soon.

BTW, if you are draining and filling at the same time ... hopefully your fill hose is about as far from the drain as possible and your pump is off so you are not mixing the water as much and draining out the newer water.

 

[ED-209]

Just a little more info on the SWG.

They generally operate with salt around 3,500ppm and the ocean is around 35,000ppm. Most people can not tell it is salt water by taste or eyes ... I think I can discern a slight taste difference.

Using bleach actually adds salt to the pool and it is not uncommon for BBB'ers to end up with salt levels at 1000+ppm. Some people actually add salt to their pools around 2000ppm without a SWG just because it seems to make the water "feel" better and less drying.

Adding the salt does not affect CH or CYA levels but will affect the CSI of your water. Also note that if you are going to add a SWG, the recommended levels are a little different and the CYA is generally kept up around 70-80 whereas a bleach pool is kept around 30-50 ... see HERE for level recommendations. You may not need to drain as much water if you are going to add a SWG relatively soon.

BTW, if you are draining and filling at the same time ... hopefully your fill hose is about as far from the drain as possible and your pump is off so you are not mixing the water as much and draining out the newer water.

Thanks jblizzle,

I have the hose around the steps and the main drains are in the middle of the pool, it's been going about 2.5 hours and the levels are not going down much so thinking of increasing the RPM and getting the level lower and continue to do the continuous method and by night, see where my CYA levels are at.

I am still debating about getting a SWG as I see the cost savings aren't really that much vs. just using Bleach as well as I am concerned about the taste as well as if having this much salt will cause the same experience I would get from the ocean where my suit would rub me raw and have that icky feeling. I know the ocean has way more salt but if at levels of 3000 ppm you can taste the salt, that tells me there is enough that might cause the rubbing raw issue which I do not want to fool with.

I mean if the costs are about the same, then I might just stick with turning off or not adding anymore tablets and just daily testing once I get the levels back to normal, just from my recent experience, I didn't want to have to be shocking everyday as I can't afford that but now knowing that I haven't had things right for a while, and that once the levels are obtained, it's just maintenance doses, unless CC is .5 or higher, I think the costs will subside or at least I hope they will??

 

[ED-209]

Well so far so good, got the pool down to a little over a ft in the shallowest end, took me about an hour at 3000 RPM while still filling with a hose and then just backed down the pump to continue the continuous draining\filling method.

I've been continuously draining\filling for about 6.5 hours now which I believe is around 20GPM or 1193 Gallons per hour, so with the initial drain of about 5000 gallons and continuous drain of about 7755 gallons, that puts me at original amount of high CYA water at just 2745 gallons, so I think I am gonna shut off the pump and fill the remaining and test to see where I am at so I can get a ballpark what, if anything, this did to the CYA levels.

Thanks again for the help and will continue to report back...

UPDATE: Well I spoke too soon, when I went to go turn the pump off, I didn't realize I had it in the RINSE position instead of WASTE...ugh..

Will this mess up anything or did I dump all my sand out? Sorry I recently replaced my cartridge filter with Sand so it's been a while but while the water was coming out it seemed clear as I tested the exiting water for FC and the levels where still at what they were last night, so hoping that means the Algae I had is dead...

Thanks again for the help..