Electric shock felt in and around pool

[CraigMW]

Aimee:

When they poured the decking, was the rebar in the decking tied to the pool's bonding circuit? If not, it could be the problem. I take it that the shock occurs when you are touching the deck with one body part while entering the water? If so, there is a voltage gradient between the two, meaning that the deck and the pool and its water are not electrically connected. If the people who installed the deck were not the same as the pool builders, you will need to call the deck installer out.

Another thing to check... on the pool's pump, heater, or any other electrified equipment in which water flows through, you should see a bonding connection and a copper wire connected to the "bonding lug." This would likely be on the outside of the pump and is not the same thing as the green equipment grounding wire inside the wiring terminal. If you don't see these bonding wires, then the bonding was definitely not done properly and you will need to have your pool builder come out to deal with it.

Regardless of any stray potential in the ground, the bonding grid should prevent you from experiencing any stray voltage in or around the pool, but only if it's all tied together.

 

[etbrown4]

I agree with the prior poster, however there is a ground fault which is causing the problem. What you would have if everything was properly grounded would be a tripped ground fault breaker, as long as the source is the electrical system feeding the pool equipment.

If the source is the other underground service which feeds the other building or the main service which feeds the house, then there would be no tripping of a gfi breaker, and that may be what's making this more complicated than usual.

It might be helpful to press the test button on any gfi receptacles near the pool, and to press the test button on any gif breakers supplying the pool motors etc. If all pool equipment is not gfi protected, or if they are not tripping as they should, then you have a clear risk of someone being electrocuted.

I'd urge that you get a competent, licensed electrician on the job.

 

[Ohm_Boy]

I can only hope that the problem is as simple as an issue with the house wiring.

Tracking down stray voltages can be far more complex than just a ground fault. Our grounded power distribution grid places a current-carrying conductor and the earth in parallel, thus some current will flow through the earth. Additionally, unbalanced grounded wye-connected transformers can route current through the ground. Sometimes, even a neighbor's barn can have a stray voltage effect, as can unbalanced loads on a standard load center. And those are just utility power-related causes. Telephone and cable CATV systems can also cause voltage leakages, though they are usually DC. Normal telephone carries 48VDC with an amazing current capacity (ringing voltage is 90-125 VAC), and cable coax distribution can have 90-100 volts riding on the center conductor. Faults in either can cause stray currents.

 

[AimeeH]

I thank everybody for all of the replies even though some are confusing to me, but I will share with whomever we call out to help inspect the problem. Honestly since opening the pool this spring I personally have been unable to feel the slight shock as I did last summer. As I stated before we really could only feel it where there was a scrape or wound on our skin, and I have TRIED to replicate the same scenario under which I felt it before and haven't felt it. My children always seem to have stubbed toes etc. and they would say it felt like a little insect sting when they dipped their toes in. In reply to a previous post, we do not have any metal ladders in the pool. we have metal railings in the cement at the wide walk in steps in the shallow end, and a bench type of "swim out" in the deep end, but no metal steps in the pool. And oddly enough we only felt this on one side of the pool and I believe it is the side OPPOSITE from where all the electrical wiring got buried for the pool.......and I understand that may not have anything to do with it. If I can replicate the same shocking again this year once we are fully up and running, I think my first call will be to our rural electic co-op. We do not have neighbors close at all really as we sit primarily in the center of our own 26 acres (absolutely beautiful wooded property with 2 acre pond and GREAT privacy for a pool.....haha). I really appreciate everyones help here. I purchased a TFP test kit this year and love this forum for all the helpful people out there and I'm sure I will be a frequent reader.

 

[AimeeH]

OK so we'vehad an electrician look at the situation and he felt there was something faulty with the transformer feeding the two meters in our property. I've had the power company come out and give me an answer that whatever the problem is it isn't their problem. The last thing the technician from the power company did was shut all power to our property off at the transformer at which point the voltage that could be read between pool water and cement increased. Help?

 

[etbrown4]

It almost has to be some stray current from an underground electrical wire that's not related to your service.

There are guys in the detection business who have equipment capable of finding faults and stray currents underground.

Those detection guys usually work for the power companies, utilities, or Ms. Utility, and they typically locate electric, gas and water services for a fee.

Before I engaged them, I'd visit each of your closest neighbors and ask them if they's be willing to shut off their main breakers long enough for you to test the voltage at the pool. Once you do that, and if you find no change, then it almost has to be an underground utility wire fault, owned by the power company.

Likely you will have to do the diagnosis for them, unless you can appear to one of the higher ups at the power company. If I were you I'd appeal to them to help further based on the potential of an electric shock. Someone should listen. Good luck!

 

[Bama Rambler]

It's still a bonding problem. The pool water needs to be bonded to the rebar in the concrete which effectively bonds the concrete. Once everything is bonded the voltage difference will cease to exist and you'll be safe.

 

[AimeeH]

update:

The electrician that has been helping us says the pool is properly bonded (although he did not do the install).
This afternoon the elictrician and the power company were finally able to be here at the same time so all tests up to that point could be shared. As of now the power company seems to acknowledge there could be a problem on their end. They said they would be placing more grounding wire on our property at the pole and quite possibly up and down the road at other poles. Until then We've been told nothing is safe and they disconnected the pump from all electricity. Hope this goes fast. How long until my beautiful oasis (thanks to my tfp test kit and this site) turns into a swamp without the pump and SWG?

 

[Ohm_Boy]

Glad you have them teamed up, and hopefully they will resolve this quickly. As for the pool, sounds like it's time for a wooden boat paddle and a few jugs of bleach.

 

[AimeeH]

Thanks Ohm_Boy. We already have a two acre pond here. Hope we don't end up with another smaller vinyl lined one too. This has been frustrating to say the least.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Sounds like you're on your way to getting it resolved. It shouldn't take but a day or two to get it resolved.

 

[linen]

How does you water look now?

What was your last cya test reading?

In addition to the paddling, adding chlorine (maybe add a gallon of bleach) then brushing the pool will help keep those organisms at bay for the short term. After good brushing do a FC test and see where you levels are at (for you cya level). If they look okay, then repeat tomorrow and test again, if your FC level keeps creeping up, then reduce how much bleach you are adding daily. If your FC level stays fairly constant, then just keep doing that.

I hope it gets sorted out quickly!

 

[AimeeH]

linen
my last CYA was Saturday at 65 so I added some to a sock in the skimmer (still there). My chlorine seems to have been high lately (0 cc and 7.5 FC).

my next question to whomever may have been following this post is: If the pool was properly bonded (which electrician and pool contractor say it is) is there any way for stray voltage to have this affect? The electrician and the power company came to the conclusion that there indeed is a stray voltage problem and the power company will be installing more ground wires (not just on my property apparently). I was not here when the concrete was poured but my husband says there was no rebar layed for that, it was just wood forms and styrophome around the pool edge. I've been reading the posts about bonding and am just wondering if any of this was possible if it was bonded properly.

 

[Ohm_Boy]

Here's my take on the pool bonding...
1) If two objects are well connected to one another by a large, 8 gauge copper wire, the chance of there being a voltage potential difference between them is extremely low.
2) Concrete can conduct electricity, and if yours has no rebar inside of it or conductive grid under it, then it cannot be bonded.

 

[Lershac]

I am with Ohm_boy.

This is a bonding issue.

Yep there may be stray voltages running all over the place... but if the pool and the deck were bonded properly, it wouldnt be an issue at all. As soon as the power co engineer stops to think about it (you will know the engineer when he is on site, he is the one that doesnt get dirty at all, yet wears all the safety gear he can get his hands on, and the guys that actually do the work make fun of him behind his back) he will figure that out and punt the ball right back into your pool builders court.

 

[etbrown4]

Bonding , if not possible due to a lack of rebar - or access to the rebar, then becomes perhaps undo-able.

Bonding, or the lack of it, unfortunately is not the cause of the problem, it simply reveals the problem. Bonding protects humans from electric shock and even with proper bonding the fault potential still exists but is sent to ground. Grounded faults result in blown fuses, breakers or gfi's. As long as you have the fault current present you still have the problem- just not a lethal one.

If you can locate that stray underground voltage, this problem will go away.

I'd really lean on the senior guys at the power company to bring out the underground fault detection crew. They have the equipment to locate and fix the problem....and the obligation! An ordinary fault detector costs $1-2000, and they have oodles of them. It's their business. :-D

 

[Lershac]

Bonding , if not possible due to a lack of rebar - or access to the rebar, then becomes perhaps undo-able.

Bonding, or the lack of it, unfortunately is not the cause of the problem, it simply reveals the problem. Bonding protects humans from electric shock and even with proper bonding the fault potential still exists but is sent to ground. Grounded faults result in blown fuses, breakers or gfi's. As long as you have the fault current present you still have the problem- just not a lethal one.

If you can locate that stray underground voltage, this problem will go away.

I'd really lean on the senior guys at the power company to bring out the underground fault detection crew. They have the equipment to locate and fix the problem....and the obligation! An ordinary fault detector costs $1-2000, and they have oodles of them. It's their business. :-D

Not undo-able... just expensive.

Break up the deck and re-pour, this time bonding it properly. If the deck has rebar, you can do much easier by breaking up small sections of deck to expose the rebar, bond to that and re-pour the small sections. Its not super uncommon for there to be potential differences from one place to another in the same yard. The earth is not a perfect conductor, and pool bonding is supposed to help deal with that.

Even if you were able to track down the source of the stray current (if there is one), if you eliminate it you are still left with a potentially unsafe condition that should be corrected. Get the pool bonding corrected.

 

[arvil]

Even if there were no electrical problems at all, there could still be stray voltages around if the bonding isn't perfect. Whenever there are two conductive objects near each other not in contact except through an imperfect conductor such as earth or water, there is a natural voltage difference (electronegativity), it's in the atomic structure. Case in point, when I served aboard the USS Enterprise (not the Captain Kirk one), the shower plumbing was piped galvanized hot water and copper cold water (still haven't figured out why). At one time when I had a small cut on a finger, I could feel the small potential in the moist air between the piping, I wasn't even in contact with either one of them. The earth itself could have small potential differences point-to-point if the chemistry changes. The bonding shunts all this so it carries the stray currents, not you.

 

[Lershac]

Even if there were no electrical problems at all, there could still be stray voltages around if the bonding isn't perfect. Whenever there are two conductive objects near each other not in contact except through an imperfect conductor such as earth or water, there is a natural voltage difference (electronegativity), it's in the atomic structure. Case in point, when I served aboard the USS Enterprise (not the Captain Kirk one), the shower plumbing was piped galvanized hot water and copper cold water (still haven't figured out why). At one time when I had a small cut on a finger, I could feel the small potential in the moist air between the piping, I wasn't even in contact with either one of them. The earth itself could have small potential differences point-to-point if the chemistry changes. The bonding shunts all this so it carries the stray currents, not you.

Agreed.

Aside- I will miss E, less than a year to go!

 

[AimeeH]

I can't thank everyone enough for all of the information. It has educated me enough to confront my PB about the bonding to which his reply was that county code did not require rebar under my cement (if I recall correctly). I came home for lunch from work Wednesday to three electric co-op trucks in my yard and 6 stumped men. as one poster advised me to seek out the engineer.....so true. There was one man omongst the six that was cleaner and more "pressed" than the others and indeed he was from the engineering dept. I didn't hear anything after that visit untl Friday when the electrician called my cell and said he was meeting the electric co. at my house at 1 pm as the electric co. had had a meeting regarding the situation on Thurs.

It has been too cold for us to swim this weekend, but my husband has tried and tried to replicate the circumstances that caused the shock to begin with and nobody is getting shocked. I've been more concerned with the chemicals since my TF-100 has made me a perfectionist nut and not having the pump run for 24+ hours followed by inches of rain had me on edge. So far it looks like we may have the electric shock at bay.

Now dealing with the fencing issue since the county inspector showed up unanounced 2 weeks ago about that. I know I know the safety issues, but we are on 26 acres and the only access to the property is the driveway with a gate. Sincerely frustrated in SC. Just want to enjoy my pool.