New to pool maintenance, question on DE filter. UPDATE PG 2!

nwin

0
Mar 27, 2012
23
Houston, TX
Ok, I have read the stickied thread on DE maintenance and done some other research, but it seems there is some conflicting information, so I just want to get the straight scoop on everything!

I've been in a home with an in ground pool for the last 3 months (renting), and it has a Pentair FNSP36 DE filter.

We had a pool guy coming and doing maintenance, and one time we had to pay him extra because he said there was stuff coming back into the pool (either DE or dirt) when the filter was running. He replaced three of the DE filters as they had holes in them.

We ended up having to fire the guy and are looking into doing the maintenance/upkeep ourselves or getting someone else down the road. All we ever saw him do was come in for 10-20 minutes, skim the top, throw 2 chlorine tabs in the floater, and vacuum very briefly. My wife and I went out there several times to comment on this and he said it was all the pool needed. Well, after he left, we would spend 30 minutes on vacuuming and the pool would look much better. Sorry, but that's not worth $130/month in my book. Especially when he charged us a bunch extra for the filter maintenance.

Enough of that though, here's where we are at. My parents owned a pool before so I'm familiar with the chemicals/testing side (though I want to switch to the BBB method as that is new to me), however it was a sand filter. Every time we were done vacuuming, we'd simply backwash it and then set it back to 'filter' and be done with it.

What I've been reading is with a DE filter, you need to backwash it only when it goes 8-12 psi above what it was when cleaned (for me after the pool guy came, the psi said about 18, so I'm guessing 26-28) OR once a month. Then when it's done backwashing, apparently you lose all the DE that was in there, so you have to fill it back up with DE based on the square footage of your filter (which for me should be 36).

Onto the questions:

1) I thought a filter was a filter and screwed up the first time. The PSI looked high to me at 20 psi, so I ran backwash on it 2 days ago but the water through the sight glass was pretty immediately clear...I'd say it backwashed for maybe a minute. I then turned it back to filter and went on my way. Did I just lose all that DE? Should I just backwash it for xx minutes to ensure all DE is gone and then add the correct amount for my filter? Do I now need to break down the whole filter, wash them all with a hose, and then put it back together again? Should I turn my filter off now until I can add the DE back in or do maintenance?

2) How often do I want to backwash? Is the 10 psi above standard OR once a month correct? I *never* saw the pool guy replace any DE in the three months we've been here, and I wasn't here when he actually serviced the filter itself.

3) I have about 18 pounds of Food grade DE laying around. Will this work the same as the pool-quality DE? I'd like to use it up...don't ask how I got 20 pounds of food grade DE...long story.

I live in Texas, so the pool is ran all year long. It's definitely not in the best condition...I know it could use a full drain and then redo the liner (which looks like the painted kind), as there are parts where bare concrete is showing just from constant wear. However, the house is a rental that was built in the 60's and the owner is trying to sell the house at some point, so I doubt he's interested in any big maintenance like that.

Please let me know if I need to provide any other info. Thanks so much in advance!
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

A very short backwash would not have removed very much DE, so you wouldn't want to use the full amount to recharge the filter. On the other hand, now might be a good time to open the filter up and completely clean it out. It might be fine, but it might be significantly clogged up with DE. It is always a good idea to clean out the filter throughly at least once a season anyway.

There is lots of good information on using a DE filter in this topic, including the correct procedure for backwashing.

How often you need to backwash varies quite a bit from pool to pool. Backwashing after a 6 psi increase in filter pressure is the best way to go. That might mean weekly, or be once a season, it depends on the size of your filter.

No, food grade DE is no good. Pool DE is heat treated, which creates the many sharp points that make DE filters so effective.
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

Well Jason beat me while I was typing, but here are my thoughts:

:wave: Welcome to the forum :wave:

I will see what I can offer as far as help ... and I am sure others will jump in too.

If you are taking over care the first thing you are going to want to do is read Pool School (upper right of page) a few times and order a good test kit (recommendations can be found in the pool school).

nwin said:
Onto the questions:

1) I thought a filter was a filter and screwed up the first time. The PSI looked high to me at 20 psi, so I ran backwash on it 2 days ago but the water through the sight glass was pretty immediately clear...I'd say it backwashed for maybe a minute. I then turned it back to filter and went on my way. Did I just lose all that DE? Should I just backwash it for xx minutes to ensure all DE is gone and then add the correct amount for my filter? Do I now need to break down the whole filter, wash them all with a hose, and then put it back together again? Should I turn my filter off now until I can add the DE back in or do maintenance?

The water will stay dirty for awhile, if it was immediately clear I would guess that new DE was not put back in and you did not loose any because there was none to loose. Note it is also bad to run the filter with no DE as this can clog up the grids and you are not really filtering much. Do you have a slider valve to backwash or a multi-valve? If you have a multi-vale you could switch to Recirculate to skip the filter. If you have the slider, well, might want to keep the water moving, but you are not really filtering. What I would recommend (since there are a lot of unknowns) is break the filter down, hose everything off really well, and make sure there are no holes in any of the grids (did he really replace some?). Put it back together and add new DE into the skimmer and check your real "clean pressure" on the gauge.

nwin said:
2) How often do I want to backwash? Is the 10 psi above standard OR once a month correct? I *never* saw the pool guy replace any DE in the three months we've been here, and I wasn't here when he actually serviced the filter itself.

Current recommendations around here see to be to backwash when the pressure goes up ~25% of the clean pressure. A 10 psi rise over a clean 10 psi (100%) is a LOT different than a 10 psi rise over a clean 25 psi (40%). If your clean pressure is 18 psi (you should check this again after a good cleaning and re-charge of DE) then you should backwash at around 23 psi to maintain good flow through the filter. There is no "monthly" service, just watch the pressure. BTW, a backwash will not remove 100% of the DE so the next time you add it only add ~80% of the full amount.

Oh and how to backwash:
Turn off pump, move valve to backwash, turn on pump, wait for water to clear, turn off pump, move valve to filter (Clean if you have multi-valve), turn on pump, wait a few minutes and REPEAT until the water is pretty clear when starting the backwash.

nwin said:
3) I have about 18 pounds of Food grade DE laying around. Will this work the same as the pool-quality DE? I'd like to use it up...don't ask how I got 20 pounds of food grade DE...long story.

You eating it or trying to kill bed bugs :-D I am pretty sure it will work and would recommend just buying a box of the pool DE.

nwin said:
I live in Texas, so the pool is ran all year long. It's definitely not in the best condition...I know it could use a full drain and then redo the liner (which looks like the painted kind), as there are parts where bare concrete is showing just from constant wear. However, the house is a rental that was built in the 60's and the owner is trying to sell the house at some point, so I doubt he's interested in any big maintenance like that.

Was there anything in your rental agreement concerning the pool? I have seen other threads here where the owner paid for pool service and did a lousy job. Is the owner willing to let you maintain it yourself? Are you responsible for it if anything goes wrong (although it should not based on advice here)?
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

jblauert said:
Well Jason beat me while I was typing, but here are my thoughts:

:wave: Welcome to the forum :wave:

I will see what I can offer as far as help ... and I am sure others will jump in too.

If you are taking over care the first thing you are going to want to do is read Pool School (upper right of page) a few times and order a good test kit (recommendations can be found in the pool school).
I've got the Taylor recommended one. K-2006...I bought it a month or two ago.

The water will stay dirty for awhile, if it was immediately clear I would guess that new DE was not put back in and you did not loose any because there was none to loose. Note it is also bad to run the filter with no DE as this can clog up the grids and you are not really filtering much. Do you have a slider valve to backwash or a multi-valve? If you have a multi-vale you could switch to Recirculate to skip the filter. If you have the slider, well, might want to keep the water moving, but you are not really filtering. What I would recommend (since there are a lot of unknowns) is break the filter down, hose everything off really well, and make sure there are no holes in any of the grids (did he really replace some?). Put it back together and add new DE into the skimmer and check your real "clean pressure" on the gauge.

-I have a multi-valve. To put it on recirculate, I should first turn the pump off, and then move the valve to recirc, correct? He did *apparently* replace some because he left three of the grids out as evidence that were broken, and charged $40/grid to replace...from looking online, if I'm looking at the correct ones...I was overcharged EXTREMELY on this, as I'm seeing them for 20 bucks a pop...is this right? I probably won't have a chance to break it down until this weekend. I have my filter on a timer to run about 8 hours a day...will it be fine in the recirc setting for a few days?
Oh and how to backwash:
Turn off pump, move valve to backwash, turn on pump, wait for water to clear, turn off pump, move valve to filter (Clean if you have multi-valve), turn on pump, wait a few minutes and REPEAT until the water is pretty clear when starting the backwash.

-I have 'rinse' on my multi-valve. Same thing as clean I'm guessing?

You eating it or trying to kill bed bugs :-D I am pretty sure it will work and would recommend just buying a box of the pool DE.

haha...actually trying to kill mites on my dog. it didn't work, so we're stuck with like 18 pounds of the stuff! Ah well, I just ran to home depot and bought some pool grade DE.

Was there anything in your rental agreement concerning the pool? I have seen other threads here where the owner paid for pool service and did a lousy job. Is the owner willing to let you maintain it yourself? Are you responsible for it if anything goes wrong (although it should not based on advice here)?
This is the pool guy the realtor for the place recommended, saying he maintains all her clients pools and is the cheapest around. They were a bit discontent to see how much he charged for the DE service though ($40/filter at 3 filters=$120, plus $100 for labor). They said in the future if something goes wrong with the pool to let them know and they'll handle it. I'm just trying to keep up on maintenance.

Thank you SO much for the quick advice. I have a feeling I'll be visiting this place a LOT in the next while. I definitely want to learn the way of BBB also and I'll be taking a look at Pool School. Thanks again!
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

So you are good on the test kit.

Always turn the pump off when you turn the multi-valve.

I just replaced all 8 of my Hayward grids for $132 delivered to my house ... so $20 each locally would have been a decent price. But you got some mark-up plus the labor :evil:

Is the pool clean now? Keeping the water moving with keep the chemicals circulating and hopefully the pool clean, but nothing will be filtered obviously. Actually, I am not sure if you would be better off leaving the water going through the filter so you do not have stagnate water in it or bypassing it so that dirt/etc does not clog the fabric ... either way you are going to be cleaning them, so it probably does not matter.

Clean=Rinse different valves are labeled differently.

This place is great and there is always someone around to help :goodjob:
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

jblauert said:
So you are good on the test kit.

Is the pool clean now? Keeping the water moving with keep the chemicals circulating and hopefully the pool clean, but nothing will be filtered obviously. Actually, I am not sure if you would be better off leaving the water going through the filter so you do not have stagnate water in it or bypassing it so that dirt/etc does not clog the fabric ... either way you are going to be cleaning them, so it probably does not matter.

Clean=Rinse different valves are labeled differently.

This place is great and there is always someone around to help :goodjob:

The pool seems clean, for what it is. Like I said, the house was built in the sixties, and I think the pool not much later that that. There's a definite lack of maintenance over the years that has taken place here. On the steps and some other places there is some obvious pitting and color degradation where it looks like it's eaten clean through a lot of the paint or whatever they use for the pool lining. Since I've been here, whenever I take one of the nylon brushes to ANY part of the pool, it turns up a white/chalky residue. I was just in the pool this weekend and when I ran my hands over the sides of the pool, the same white residue came up. No idea what that is. I did a test on the chemicals this weekend and everything was within parameters according to the test kit. I didn't test everything, but I remember testing PH and chlorine (both free and total). I'll have to get a logbook to keep records of what everything is at like I do my fish tank.

Also of note, he did that DE filter maintenance roughly over a month ago, and we've been running the filter for about 8 hours a day since then. This past weekend was when I ran the vacuum through the pool and then I backwashed it, where I noted through the sight glass that it was immediately clear...so, what I'm worried about now is that I'll take apart the filter this weekend, to find zero DE in there and a bunch of busted up filters...though I think if that was the case, there would be some stuff coming into the pool whenever the filter comes on.

Oh well, at least I'm learning!
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

Hmmm ... wonder if all/most of your DE ended up in the pool and that is what all the white residue you are seeing in the pool. Or if there was no DE put back in the filter, then any dust in your pool is not getting captured by the grids.

You need to open it up and see what is going on in there ... take some pictures and everything and post them up here. I am not sure what your grids look like, but check around all the stitching and make sure there are no holes and make sure none of the plastic structure inside has been crushed.

I saw some reference on here about putting a sock (not sure what kind) in front of the return (not sure how you get it to stay there) to see if dirt/etc is making it past the filter. If you did that and really stirred up the pool, you might find out if the dirt is just coming back to the pool.

Another possibility is that the white residue is actually coming from the paint (if it is in fact paint).

EDIT: Do you also have a Waste on your multi-valve? Are you aware that if you are going to vacuum, you could put the valve there and all the dirt will bypass the filter and head out the backwash pipe? Of course you are loosing water, so probably do not want to do that too long.
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

jblauert said:
Hmmm ... wonder if all/most of your DE ended up in the pool and that is what all the white residue you are seeing in the pool. Or if there was no DE put back in the filter, then any dust in your pool is not getting captured by the grids.

You need to open it up and see what is going on in there ... take some pictures and everything and post them up here. I am not sure what your grids look like, but check around all the stitching and make sure there are no holes and make sure none of the plastic structure inside has been crushed.

I saw some reference on here about putting a sock (not sure what kind) in front of the return (not sure how you get it to stay there) to see if dirt/etc is making it past the filter. If you did that and really stirred up the pool, you might find out if the dirt is just coming back to the pool.

Another possibility is that the white residue is actually coming from the paint (if it is in fact paint).

EDIT: Do you also have a Waste on your multi-valve? Are you aware that if you are going to vacuum, you could put the valve there and all the dirt will bypass the filter and head out the backwash pipe? Of course you are loosing water, so probably do not want to do that too long.

I do have a Waste on my multi-valve, but yeah like you said...i'd rather not do that. It's looking like I'll try and take it apart as soon as I can and post some pictures here. I've watched some videos of taking the filter apart and it doesn't look that bad at all, so that's good at least.

The white residue...good question on maybe it being DE or dust or paint. I'm just really not sure right now. I was just reading up on the pool school, and noticed that having low calcium levels can lead to what I've seen in this pool, so maybe that's it too. Tomorrow I'll at least try and do a full water test and see what I come up with. If I have time, I'll be taking apart the filter, though I get home at 4 and that gives me about 3 hours of sunlight to do everything which I'm not too optimistic of with it being my first time...I think I'd rather wait until Saturday morning when I have the whole day to mess things up!
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

Seems like the others have you covered, but I'll chime in anyway. My DE filter has only needed backwashing once a year. This year I may have to do it a little sooner because we had some phenomenal wind storms that blew massive amounts of dirt in the pool. (Trashed Pasadena, too, you may have seen it on the national news). You may need it more often, if you're right next to a farmer's field or something. The grids don't do any filtering by themselves. They just hold the powder. The powder would look like a kitchen sponge if seen under a microscope. It filters really good. You'll never get it all off the screens just by backwashing. Never, ever. Not even if you emptied the whole pool doing it. Likewise, you'll never get it all out of the pipes. After I backwwashed I opened up the case, pulled the screens, and blasted them off with a hose. Cleaned the tank out, reassembled, and watched a small cloud of powder shoot out the returns. The vacuum will get it later. It wasn't much, just enough to make one worry if one of the screens wasn't fully seated.

If you're preparing to open things up: wear old clothes. It can be a messy job. Get everything you need ready - you ain't gonna wanna go in the house to get a brush or whatever once you get started. Get the hose and nozzle set up. Have some O-ring lube, and rags or paper towels at the ready. Don't force anything. If the lid won't lift off easy, turn on the pump for an instant, the pressure will pop it loose.
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

Alright, did a full chemical test today and got more info on my pool. I'm estimating the size of the pool using a calculator I found online. The pump is switched to recirculate until I can tackle this project on Saturday.

For readings I got:

FC-2.0
CC-0
PH-7.5 (it was between 7.4 and 7.6)
Total Alkalinity-50ppm
Calcium hardness-480ppm
CYA- 90ppm.

On the CYA, I'm guessing a bit, because it said to do the test until the black dot disappears. It disappeared for a second right around 100, but then I could see it again...it finally become totally un-seeable at about 90ppm. I'm going to cross post in the chemical forum to see what recommendations I can get on that.
 

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Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

No need to cross post. Your number would be 90 and the test is only good to +-10 anyway.

With cya that high your minimum fc is higher than 2. Check pool school for the chart as I can not check now. You should always stay above the minimum for your cya or trouble may start.

Odds are that if the water is not clear you will need to shock the pool whether you start now or when the filter is back up is fine either way. You just currently would not filter out the dead stuff.
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

Alright, so I used the pool calculator and came up with the fact that I should replace half of the water in the pool (about 12000 gallons) with new water to lower the CYA to 40 and the CH to 260, if the CH in the tap water is 0...I have to add 300 oz of bleach to get it up to the correct FC level, and 300 oz of baking soda to get TA to 100!

It's seeming to me that maybe the best thing to do would be test my tap water and see what the results are...I know houston water in general is very hard by nature, so if the levels are close to the same, I might have to deal with the high CYA and CH...not too sure yet.

So far my plan of attack looks like:

1)test tap water, get results and do some math to see what replacing half the pool water would actually do to the levels
2) if it seems worthwhile, then go ahead and replace 1/2 the water.
3) After 1/2 of pool water replaced, wait a day to recirculate everything, and retest...then back to pool calculator to see what amounts of bleach/baking soda I need to add.

Now, I can't say for sure since it's a rental, but given the maintenance of the pool, I'm guessing it hasn't been refilled in a while! The pool water *itself* looks pretty good. It's clear. However, when brushing the bottom, it does go ahead and some dust or DE or whatever it might be comes up, as posted earlier.

Given that, it looks like I should:

1) take apart filter FIRST...clean it out, replace DE, allow to run for a few days (maybe shock to get the FC up?)
2) From there, after the filter has been working the way it's SUPPOSED to be running, I can re-test the levels and see where I'm at. Who knows the state of the filter and how it's been messing with the chemical levels (if that's possible?)

Also, there's a few chlorine pucks left in the skimmer right now. I'm going to let those dissolve and then I'm hoping I'll be done with that and can start the BBB method.

Comments/suggestions?
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

The big question is: what does the water look like? Is it clear? If it is, that simplifies everything.

No matter what you do with the chemistry, you'll need circulation. So clean out the filter thoroughly and get your baseline pressure with clean grids and a fresh charge of DE. And food-grade DE is not the same. Sorry.

The CYA doesn't need to go all the way down to 40. In fact, you may want it 60 to 70 to deal with the Texas sun. Unless your pool is green and needs shocking, then you want to lower it way down during the process.

CH is going to be a losing battle. Keep tabs on it, but don't drain 90% of the water just to meet some arbitrary ideal target you selected.

So...order of battle - and this is assuming the water isn't green: filter maintenance. Drain and refill about 1/3. Adjust pH. Add enough chlorine to get it to about 8. Brush and vacuum. Run another full set of tests, it should be mixed well after all that. See what the CYA level reads now, so you know your target FC. Then just maintain FC and pH and keep brushing and vacuuming. After a couple weeks of obsessive testing (We've all been there :mrgreen: ) you'll have a good feel for things. Hands-on learning as it were. Then maybe start messing with CH or TA or CYA again.

Some of this stuff takes time. That's why many times here you will see people told to use POP. Pool Owner Patience.
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

Problem #1: I went to try and drain some water to get a head start on that, and apparently when I put the multi-valve to 'waste' it's tied into the holes that are under the skimmer. So, when I try and drain the pool, it will get as low as the skimmer and then start sucking air, which is obviously a bad thing for both the pump and not allowing me to drain the pool.

After googling some stuff, apparently some people are terrified of draining their pool. I understand the reasons, but some also say not to even rent a submersible pump to empty it.

So, am I going to be left just draining the pool maybe 5-6 inches and that will be it?
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

The risk of draining a plaster pool is if the water table is high in your area the pool may literally float out of the ground. :shock:

You can probably drain 50% and not have to worry too much. I have had 2 pools that were completely drained with no issues ... but it is the desert (probably would not do that during monsoon season though). Renting a submersible pump (or buying a cheap one at Harbor Freight) is the best way to go.

You are right. If your floor drain is plumbed to the skimmer and then from the skimmer to the pad, you should probably not pump below the skimmer. The float/diverter valves in the skimmer are not air tight seals so you generally can not pump out water from the main drain.

That said ... my last house was plumbed that way and the filter case split and literally pumped 95% of the water out through the skimmer ... so that float sealed good enough.

My current house is plumbed the same way and after the multivalve seal failed, I pumped 33% of the water out of the pool through the skimmer ... so that float sealed well enough too.

I am sure I was pulling in some air and it was not likely good for the pump.
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

Alright, just finished the maintenance on the filter. Not too bad for my first try doing it! The hardest part was synching the grids up on the top and bottom plastic parts they go into. Rinsed everything clean (there was some dirt/leaves in the bottom of the filter and on the grids, and a bit of DE clumped up here and there. Forgot to take pics as I was busy cleaning :( Anyways, everything is back together and I added the DE to the skimmer by mixing with water first. The filter is on and everything seems good.

I'm guessing I'll leave it running and test Chlorine levels tonight and start adding bleach.
 
Re: New to pool maintenance...question on DE filter...

nwin said:
Alright, just finished the maintenance on the filter. Not too bad for my first try doing it! The hardest part was synching the grids up on the top and bottom plastic parts they go into. Rinsed everything clean (there was some dirt/leaves in the bottom of the filter and on the grids, and a bit of DE clumped up here and there. Forgot to take pics as I was busy cleaning :( Anyways, everything is back together and I added the DE to the skimmer by mixing with water first. The filter is on and everything seems good.

I'm guessing I'll leave it running and test Chlorine levels tonight and start adding bleach.
Make a note what the clean pressure is and what position the valves are in when you read it.
 

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