Just curious would a CO2 feeder work well?

EskimoPie said:
Mas, I would very much like to see some pictures of your setup. While my pool is very nearly maintenance free with the SWCG and in-floor cleaning, I still would like to reduce it even further. Since this thread is titled about a C02 feeder, perhaps you could start a new thread on automatic acid injection. What I'd really love to see is a commercial product for automated acid injection, but seeing how the industry is lacking such a product I might just build my own as you did. Thanks for the info!!!

Edit: I did read through the OP's link to the inpHuser product and it sounds very attractive. The major drawback for me is the need to re-fill the C02 tanks. I can buy muriatic acid a the grocery store a block away from my house. To refill C02 tanks I would have to drive 10+ miles each way to a welding supply store. That hassle alone would negate the benefits of the system for me.

It depends on how much you are willing to spend. There are plenty of commercially available pH controllers that will activate a chemical feed pump and maintain your pH automatically. You'll have to service the pump probably once per season and standardize the probe. Typical cost would be around 1k with a pump which is a bit pricey for a home pool.

Chemical pumps can be had starting at about $200 to trickle feed or cheaper on ebay.

You could also build a simple system like mas, and that may be a real good starting point for you.
 
Eskimo,

The inPhuser people say that some of their systems go more than a year before tank refill, but usually it is about 3 months. It depends on your system, the chemistry of your water, flow, etc. I have to buy about a case of acid a week, so this would still be lower hassle for me.
 
salinda said:
I have to buy about a case of acid a week, so this would still be lower hassle for me.

So does that mean you are using 2 gallons of acid a week in the pool? :shock:

Is that 30% or 17%?
 
I'm by no means an expert... would appreciate any advice

After reading through several forums and looking at various products on the web, I put together a low cost CO2 injection system for about $300. The components are easily sourced from several online companies, but the following are examples of where to find the parts.

20lb CO2 tank ($100) - sourced locally

Regulator with integrated flow control and solenoid ($90)
http://www.automatedaquariums.com/mw_ma957.htm

Diffusor ($80) Model MBD75
http://www.pointfour.com/Products/Diffu ... tions.html
(I did talk to the inpHuser guys and they would not sell me just the injector - it looks like a nice product though)

Some PVC ($20) to place the diffusor in front of the filter pump to insure good mixing of the gas at it travels through the pump and DE filter. Mount the diffusor on the bottom of a 3" section of clear pvc with reducers on each end to get back to the 2" pipe going into the pump. Drill a hole into the pvc for the gas feed tube and seal with marine grade underwater caulk.

I wired the 110v solenoid into the filter pump circuit so gas only flows when the pump is running.

I'm still tweaking to get the CO2 flow rates right. Also, I assume that my TA will start to climb after a while as noted in this forum. I am assuming that this is due to the carbonic acid converting back into CO2. So, I also aerate while the pump is running - trying to strike a blance between creating carbonic acid to lower pH and eliminating CO2 to lower TA.

Appreciate any comments anyone may have...
 
Aerating while injecting doesn't do any good at all since it just removes some of the carbon dioxide you are adding (putting it into the air as a greenhouse gas).

In theory, injecting carbon dioxide into the water will cause the pH to drop with no change in Total Alkalinity (TA). It is the exact opposite situation of what happens when carbon dioxide is outgassed where the pH rises with no change in TA. The TA does not change because when some of the carbon dioxide forms carbonic acid and then bicarbonate, this results in creating equal numbers of components that increase and decrease alkalinity so there is no net change.

CO2(g) --> CO2(aq)
dissolving gaseous carbon dioxide into water

CO2(aq) + H2O --> H2CO3
aqueous carbon dioxide + water --> carbonic acid
no alkalinity created yet (nothing was created to accept a hydrogen ion)

H2CO3 --> H+ + HCO3-
carbonic acid --> hydrogen ion + bicarbonate ion
hydrogen ion decreases TA by 1, bicarbonate ion increases TA by 1 (molecular unit, not ppm); -1 +1 = 0 for no net change in alkalinity

HCO3- --> H+ + CO32-
bicarbonate ion --> hydrogen ion + carbonate ion
removal of bicarbonate ion decreases TA by 1, hydrogen ion decreases TA by 1, carbonate ion increases TA by 2 since it can accept two hydrogen ion; -1 -1 +2 = 0 for no net change in alkalinity

The bicarbonate ion counts as one unit of alkalinity as it can accept one hydrogen ion, but the hydrogen ion counts as negative one unit of alkalinity since it is a hydrogen ion itself (technically, the concentration difference of [OH-] - [H+] is counted towards alkalinity since adding acid in the TA test essentially uses up this difference along with other chemical species that can accept a hydrogen ion down to the 4.5 pH of the TA test indicator).

The above analysis is also why pH and TA move together when adding a pure (strong) acid or base to the water. Adding hydrogen ion (i.e. an acid) lowers both the pH and TA while removing hydrogen ion (say, by adding hydroxyl ion from lye which combines with hydrogen ion to form water) raises both the pH and TA.

That's the theory, but in practice waterbear has reported seeing the TA increase over time when using CO2 injection so some other process must also be occurring at the same time. It could be as simple as the fill water replacing evaporated water since that happens in my own pool (without CO2 injection) where my fill (tap) water has a TA of 80 and my TA slowly rises over time [EDIT] or it can come from the "excess lye" in chlorinating liquid or bleach. [END-EDIT] I have a pool cover so outgassing is minimal and when the cover is open apparently the evaporation/refill is a greater factor than outgassing unless I do something intentional to make outgassing faster such as creating aeration. The rise in TA is slow in my pool -- rising from 80 to 110 over an entire season (around 7 months).

There are, of course, ways to increase TA as with adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to the water as follows:

NaHCO3 --> Na+ + HCO3-
sodium bicarbonate --> sodium ion + bicarbonate ion
sodium ion doesn't change TA, bicarbonate ion increases TA by 1 unit; 0 +1 = 1 so alkalinity increases

The sodium ion does not count towards alkalinity, but the bicarbonate ion does. You can see the clear distinction between adding bicarbonate from a salt as above vs. adding it from carbon dioxide or carbonic acid which adds it from a weak acid which produces hydrogen ions that count against alkalinity resulting in no net change in TA.

To lower the TA, one must use the acid + aeration procedure (lower the pH, aerate and add acid to keep the pH low, then when the TA is where you want it stop adding acid and let the pH rise from continued aeration until the pH is where you want it), BUT the acid must be a pure (i.e. strong) acid, not a weak acid that doesn't lower the TA when added. So you can't use carbon dioxide, carbonic acid, nor phosphoric acid for this purpose. You must use a strong acid such as Muriatic Acid (hydrochloric acid, usually 31.45%), Sulfuric Acid or Sodium Bisulfate.

Richard
 
I miswrote. I go through about 4 gallons a month in the summer. I get them from a store that sells 4 gallons in a crate and they (or their supplier) reuse the bottles.
 
To minimize the rise in pH caused by the hydrogen gas bubbles in an SWG outgassing carbon dioxide, the lower the TA the better though I wouldn't have the TA go much below 70 ppm if the CYA is high (60-80 ppm). Also, after lowering the TA, targeting a pH of 7.7 instead of 7.5 can help reduce the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing.

According to this post your TA was at 170 which is quite high. This would explain why you are having to add so much acid. You will find that you will add far less acid when you get to a lower TA level. You may not need to go the CO2 injection route at all. You say that you lower the TA level, but imply that it rises over time. Is your fill water high in TA? Perhaps a pool cover will help reduce evaporation and refill and lower the rate of TA increase.

Richard
 
TA is not usually 170. Last summer, I had it below 100 with your guidance at PF. It was around 80 for most of the summer. I just did a drain and refill with fill water that has very high TA. I am working on lowering it as we speak. As of yesterday, it was 150. Didn't get to measure it today.
 
I have a CO2 injection system I built. It is timed from my Elk M1G automation system.

I vary the injection time accoring to the time of the year. It runs about
5 min twice a day. A 20 lb cylinder will last about 2 months in the summer.

I did find that you cannot use plastic tubing with CO2 as it just leaks to much
and has very short life. I replaced it with copper and now it is fine.

I inject just before my in floor cleaner so the CO2 will get to the bottom of the pool.

I am quite impressed on how little a run time of the CO2 will drop the pH.

As far as the alkanlity issue, this can easily be controlled with the addition of
acid once or twice a year.

Currently I have done nothing to my pool in about 3 months now, except read
the chemistry.

For those who are interested in another post under this heading I discribed a
predictive system and it seems to be working just fine. Pool chemistry is quite
predictable I have found.

Cliff s
 

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Here is a addition to my previous post.

I have used both acid pump system and a CO2 system for several years and here are the conclusions
I have reached.

The CO2 system does work but its disadvantage is that you have to control the TA seperately.
The only way to control TA is to add acid, well that is the same as using a acid pump system
only you use less acid. Acid today is about $4.00 a gallon for 29% so it is a expense. CO2 is about
$22.00 for a 20lb bottle fill, which will last 4 to 6 weeks. I think in the long run acid is cheaper.

When I used the acid pump system it seemed to keep the pH more consistant because the TA was
usually lower(about 60-70). I really don't see any problem having the TA at a lower value as it reduces the
deposits at the pool waterline and makes the pH easier to control. The downside is you have to keep
filling the acid tank. I would suggest at least a 15 gallon tank and dilute the acid 3 to 1, which gives a about
a 10% solution. When I used the acid pump system I only adjusted the pump about twice a year, once for the
winter once for the summer. I did notice that the acid use was quite consistant.

I am currently using the CO2 system and I am considering returning to the acid pump system.

For those considering a acid pump type system, use a adjustable pump that is timed with your filter
pump. For a residential pool I don't see the need for a automatic controller as the parameters change rather
slowly. In practice when you get the acid pump adjusted very little change is necessary.

My experience has found that the most practical solution is using a SWG with a acid pump that is manually
controlled. Since you should test the pool parameters regularly and fine adjustments to the acid pump
can be made at that time.

Cliff s
 
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