Liquidator questions - keeping spa out of loop, etc.

[lalittle]

I've been reading up on the Liquidator and have a few questions that I haven't yet found answers to.

I understand that the unit supplies chlorine whenever the pump is running, so how does this effect times when I want to run the jacuzzi? My jacuzzi is sometimes in use for a few hours at a time, and since ALL the flow is going through the jacuzzi during this time, it seems like this could raise the chlorine level in the jacuzzi since it's such a small volume. Is this a consideration? It seems like any extra pump time would also be a consideration, like it I want to vacuum, or do extra skimming, or run run the pump while adding any other chemicals, etc.

Can the unit be installed so that it only flows when the valves are set to the pool -- i.e. so that when the valves are switched to the jacuzzi, the LQ is out of the loop? I found a manual for the LQ at ezpool.com (strange that I could not find one on the hasa site) and it "seems" like this would be possible based on the picture, but I'm not entirely sure since the manual doesn't really cover this.

I also see some posts from people saying they installed this without drilling any holes so that they could easily remove it if they wanted. How is this done? The instructions seem to indicate that you have to drill holes in order to install it.

The instructions also say to install it upstream of the heater, which seems odd to me. Wouldn't it be preferable if the fresh chlorine was added AFTER the high heat source?

Finally, would most people here use the 4 gallon unit for a 25K to 30K gallon pool in Southern California (i.e. sunny), or would the 8 gallon unit mean less maintenance? I noticed that the difference in price did not seem to be all that much, and I'd want to get the "best" one for my situation. Are there downsides to the 8 gallon that I'm not considering? Would the 8 just be overkill?

Thanks for any information on this,

Larry

 

[Bama Rambler]

Before I address your questions let me say. A 25k gallon pool is as big as I would recommend an LQ for. If your's is that big or bigger I'd suggest you look at an injection pump and tank.

Now to your question. In order to bypass the spa (though I don't think it would be a problem) would be to insert the LQ out line in the line from the pool before it joins the spa line at the suction of the pump. That would solve that problem. The In line goes in the return line and the reason to put it upstream of the heater is so that it has enough back pressure to fill the LQ but in most pools that's not a problem.

 

[lalittle]

Before I address your questions let me say. A 25k gallon pool is as big as I would recommend an LQ for. If your's is that big or bigger I'd suggest you look at an injection pump and tank.

Thanks for the response.

Do you have any specific brands/models of injection pumps? How much are these, and how complex are they to install? The thing that attracted me to the LQ is that it's relatively inexpensive, and more importantly, relatively easy to install as well.

I'm a bit confused since I see posts on this forum talking about pools as big as 40K gallons using a LQ. Is there any "official" information on this -- i.e. specs that state how big a pool can be handled by a Liquidator? I would think that most "commercial" pools would be 25K gal or more, and the 8 gal LQ is supposedly a "commercial" product. Do most people using a LQ really have pools smaller than 25 to 30K gal?

Now to your question. In order to bypass the spa (though I don't think it would be a problem) would be to insert the LQ out line in the line from the pool before it joins the spa line at the suction of the pump. That would solve that problem.

Okay -- so it would go on the pool line just upstream of the valve where I change return flow from pool to spa. When set to spa, there would be no "suction" on the LQ line, correct? The IN side of the LQ would still be connected, however, so does this pose any potential problems? If a valve got stuck, could this potentially overflow the LQ?

It seems like this would be a common subject for people with a connected pool and spa, but I don't see much talk of this. Have any other people dealt with this situation (i.e. wanting to isolate the LQ so that it doesn't keep adding chlorine when all flow is directed to the spa.)

The In line goes in the return line and the reason to put it upstream of the heater is so that it has enough back pressure to fill the LQ but in most pools that's not a problem.

I see people taking about using a connection on the heater that allows them to hook the LQ up without any drilling. I'd obviously have to drill if I wanted to isolate the LQ to the pool and not the spa, but where would I find the connection on the heater to use for the LQ? I have an older Purex Minimax 400, and the only extra connection I can see is next to the outlet pipe. The IN and OUT pipes are next to each other one side, and next to the outlet pipe there is what looks like a hose bib -- i.e. a valve with what appears to be a 3/4" male threaded connector. Is this the one I'd use, and is it okay that it's downstream of the heater? Is there another connection I'm not seeing?

On a related note, how much drop in overall flow/pressure does the LQ cause? Is it negligible, or is this something else that needs to be considered?

Regarding the 3/8" "upgrade" kit for the LQ, I'm a bit unclear what all the advantages of this are, and I'm a bit confused by all the talk of various mods people have done with the LQs. In all the various posts on this subject, I'm not entirely clear when someone is referring to the parts in the upgrade kit vs actual custom mods. I do see the picture on the PST site, but I can't always correlate that picture to the discussions. Does the kit make it so that the LQ can be more easily disconnected, and if so, are the connections the type that close off when you unplug them -- i.e. could I just unplug the connections and run the pump? Are these types of connections totally reliable and/or better than the original parts?

Thanks,

Larry

 

[lalittle]

Before I address your questions let me say. A 25k gallon pool is as big as I would recommend an LQ for. If your's is that big or bigger I'd suggest you look at an injection pump and tank.

I meant to ask about this as well: Is an injection pump the same thing as a "dosing" or "peristaltic" pump? If so, do you know on any good brands and/or models for this size pool (25 to 30K gal)?

In my reading tonight, I saw comments that dosing pumps require a decent amount of maintenance -- much more so than the LQ. That struck me as odd -- I would have thought it would be the other way around. If the pump is not that hard to install and maintain, I would definitely consider it over the LQ. It seems like more people are talking about the LQ, however.

It also struck me that I was not able to find a complete "kit" that came with all the tubing, check valves, reservoir, etc. -- i.e. something like the LQ kit, that comes with everything you need to get it set up. Am I just missing something obvious?

One other potential issue is that since these are activated by power rather than flow, I don't see how I could make it only dose when using the pool, and to remain off when the valves were set to the spa. Would there be a way of doing this, or is this something that only the LQ could do?

Thanks,

Larry

 

[Bama Rambler]

Let's handle things one at a time.

The problem with the LQ on larger pools is that you have to fill it often, which to me, negates the reason you wanted one to begin with. On a 30K pool, If you were lucky enough to only lose 2ppm per day that would require 1 gallon of bleach each day so on an 8 gallon model you'd have to fill it up at least once a week or more often.

Them calling it commercial is just marketing. It's no more or less commercial than the 4 gallon.

The 3/8" upgrade is definitely worth it if you go with the LQ. I'd even go further and say you need a Hyaward ¼" needle valve to go with that. It's the best upgrade I made when I was using the LQ. (my sis still uses it).



As for the injection pump. Yeah, dosing or peristaltic pumps are injection pumps. I'm biased toward the Stenner pumps because I've gotten very good service out of them and I've used and seen all types.

Installing a peristaltic pump is simple. All you need is one hole in the plumbing for the injection point and a plugin & simple timer. You can also run it off your pump timer. That's what I do.

A injection pump and drum will be about $300.00. and if you get a 30 gallon drum you'd be able to go a month between fills if you wanted to. I have a 15 gallon drum and I can go a month on my 13000 gal pool before I have to fill it.

 

[lalittle]

It would be twice that long with 12% chlorine (about 16 days), but it would also be more expensive, which is actually a concern since higher percentage chlorine is a lot more expensive. I'm starting to wonder if using trichlor (or perhaps a LQ/trichlor combo) along with periodic draining to keep the CYA down would be a better compromise between cost and work.

On that note, do the mods that give extra flow to the LQ create a problem when using higher concentration chlorine? Do you have to keep the unit adjusted in the very bottom range of the scale? It seems like this could make it harder to adjust.

Regarding the dosing pump, it looks like it's not that hard to set up, but I don't know how I would solve the issue with wanting to isolate the pool so that the spa does not get super-chlorinated. Simply hooking the pump to the main pump timer would not work, and I don't trust people to remember to shut the dosing pump off. Is there some way around this that I'm not thinking of? This seems like one area where the design of the LQ offers an advantage.

Thanks again,

Larry

 

[Bama Rambler]

12.5% bleach doesn't create any problems for the LQ. The upgrade doesn't make it harder to operate.

As long as you know what's going on in your pool and keep the FC level to match the CYA and are willing to drain/refill using trichlor is fine.

You'd need a second timer or a switch to shut the pump off when in spa mode. How is the spa mode controlled?

 

[lalittle]

You'd need a second timer or a switch to shut the pump off when in spa mode. How is the spa mode controlled?

I flip the two valves so that the flow is into and out of the spa. I don't think a second timer would work all that well since the dosing pump would have to line up with the main pump anyway, so it seems a lot simpler to just put both pumps on the same timer.

If I used an injection pump, I'd have to remember to completely shut it off when using the spa, and then I'd have to remember to turn it back on. This worries me a bit, especially with other people controlling it sometimes.

At this point, it seems like the LQ is a better solution because it's much easier to isolate the flow to the pool side and leave the spa out of the loop. That said, at my local prices, it turns out that ANY liquid chlorine alternative is adding up to be substantially more expensive than tablets IF I don't take draining/refilling into account. That brings up an interesting question, which is how much the associated water cost is for keeping the CYA down and using pucks. I don't really consider that a viable option due to the waste of water, but I'm still rather curious about the actual cost just for comparison. I'll have to dig up the bill land convert the prices to gallons (since they use something like cubic feet on the bill.)

Larry

 

[94SupraTT]

Before I address your questions let me say. A 25k gallon pool is as big as I would recommend an LQ for. If your's is that big or bigger I'd suggest you look at an injection pump and tank.

I have a 23,000 pool. My filter runs 12 hrs a day. I am thinking about getting a LQ. That said with your comment I'm kind of leary. Honestly though if I could just add bleach once a week I'd be happy.

 

[Bama Rambler]

That said, at my local prices, it turns out that ANY liquid chlorine alternative is adding up to be substantially more expensive than tablets IF I don't take draining/refilling into account.

Here's a comparison Chem Geek did on the cost of chlorine sources.

Trichlor Tabs/Pucks ......... $2.20 / 0.915 = $2.40 but $3.83 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH
Dichlor .......................... $2.60 / 0.554 = $4.70 but $5.73 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH
73% Cal-Hypo ................ $2.40 / 0.724 = $3.31
Lithium Hypochlorite ....... $6.00 / 0.352 = $17.05
12.5% Chlorinating Liquid . $0.336 / 0.108 = $3.11
6% Bleach ..................... $0.15 / 0.057 = $2.63

It's in this topic, if you want to read it. Once you add in water replacement costs it's substantially more expensive to use pucks.


There's nothing wrong with an LQ. Like I said I used one for a long time and I didn't switch because it didn't work. I switched because I wanted to try something different.

94Supra -- In a 23k gal pool the 8 gal LQ will work fine. Get the 3/8" upgrade and a Hayward needle valve and you'll be set. At a 2 ppm per day loss, you'll be able to go about 10 days between filling. That's not too bad.

Everybody keep in mind that you can go longer between handling your chlorine source but you still need to test every day and no less than every other day.

 

[lalittle]

Thanks for the info.

The more I think about this, the more I think that an injection pump would be best IF I can think of a clever way of installing it such that it only ran when the pool side was flowing, and not when running the spa.

Do you happen to know if there is a relatively easy way to make this possible? A simple timer doesn't work, and I'm not sure that I can trust myself and others to turn it on and off manually, so I'm wondering if some form of flow switch could work without being too expensive. What I need is a device that senses when the pool side is flowing and switches power to the feeder on. It would basically be a way of doing what the LQ does, but it would do it by switching electricity on and off to the injection pump.

I'm actually surprised that more people haven't talked about this given that connected pool/spas are pretty common.

Larry

 

[texasdad]

Trichlor Tabs/Pucks ......... $2.20 / 0.915 = $2.40 but $3.83 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH
Dichlor .......................... $2.60 / 0.554 = $4.70 but $5.73 when accounting for Washing Soda to adjust pH
73% Cal-Hypo ................ $2.40 / 0.724 = $3.31
Lithium Hypochlorite ....... $6.00 / 0.352 = $17.05
12.5% Chlorinating Liquid . $0.336 / 0.108 = $3.11
6% Bleach ..................... $0.15 / 0.057 = $2.63

It's in this topic, if you want to read it. Once you add in water replacement costs it's substantially more expensive to use


There's nothing wrong with an LQ. Like I said I used one for a long time and I didn't switch because it didn't work. I switched because I wanted to try something different.

94Supra -- In a 23k gal pool the 8 gal LQ will work fine. Get the 3/8" upgrade and a Hayward needle valve and you'll be set. At a 2 ppm per day loss, you'll be able to go about 10 days between filling. That's not too bad.

Everybody keep in mind that you can go longer between handling your chlorine source but you still need to test every day and no less than every other day.[/quote]


Interesting price comparison, but it is
4 years old. How have prices changed? Were does salt fit in if counting cost of replacement cell?

 

[carlscan26]

Thanks for the info.

The more I think about this, the more I think that an injection pump would be best IF I can think of a clever way of installing it such that it only ran when the pool side was flowing, and not when running the spa.

Do you happen to know if there is a relatively easy way to make this possible? A simple timer doesn't work, and I'm not sure that I can trust myself and others to turn it on and off manually, so I'm wondering if some form of flow switch could work without being too expensive. What I need is a device that senses when the pool side is flowing and switches power to the feeder on. It would basically be a way of doing what the LQ does, but it would do it by switching electricity on and off to the injection pump.

I'm actually surprised that more people haven't talked about this given that connected pool/spas are pretty common.

Larry

Larry, you could setup a separate timer that runs during the day or early morning when you wouldn't be using the spa. Set the pool pump timer to start a bit earlier and to end a bit after the dosing pump

 

[lalittle]

Larry, you could setup a separate timer that runs during the day or early morning when you wouldn't be using the spa. Set the pool pump timer to start a bit earlier and to end a bit after the dosing pump

The problem is that the pump run times vary quite a bit depending on my use, so the timer is always being changed. This would add quite a bit of calculation and effort to the situation since I'd have to consantly align the two timers and make sure that the peristaltic never ran when I was using the spa.

I'm looking into using a flow switch (on the pool side of the return flow) as well as the main pump (just for safety in case the flow switch sticks), but I started a new thread for this since I felt like this was straying too far from the subject of this thread. The other thread is here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/anyo...o-control-manage-peristaltic-pump-t37620.html

Thanks,

Larry

 

[Nightmare]

What is the 1/4" needle valve? link?

I'd like to see updated costs on the liquid Chlorine too. In my limited price checking I don't see 'bleach' being that much cheaper. My LQ is burning through about 4 gallons of 12% a month, It would need to be a lot cheaper for me to want to dump 2x that amount of bleach in there.

I'm currently paying $19.34 (with tax) for 4 gallons of HASA 12.5%

Lowes has 2 Gallons of 10% for $6.86 = $14.78 (w/ tax) for 4 gallons of 10% (Is that about $18.48 to make up the 2.5%?)

Costco has 2 x 182oz Clorox Bleach for $5.13 (w/o tax). That is almost 3 gallons total. If you buy 3 cases that is just over 8.5 gallons of 6%. So that is about the same price and over 2x the amount of product to handle/store.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Here's a link to the needle valve.

Usually if you can get 12.5% bleach at a good price it winds up being about even, and in some cases less than 6%.