Autopilot total control?

[andy]

Thanks all, I have lowered my ORP 10mv and raised my PH .2 on the Total Contorl. We'll see what the next few days tests show with the changes.

I have my pool uncovered now and will leave it that way for the next 7 hours with a barrel fan blowing through the room.

 

[chem geek]

That sounds like a great plan. If after opening up the pool you notice a "bad" chlorine smell at all, be sure to vent the room with lots of fresh air, not just blowing it around.

 

[andy]

yep, I have all the windows open in the room and a barrel fan blowing through the room. Since it is 20 deg outside here and the pool water being 84-85 deg I can see the water steaming. I also do not smell any chlorine.

 

[chem geek]

Mmmmm. Not a good sign (no smell of chlorine, that is), but we'll see what tomorrow brings with the CC measurement. You may have CCs that aren't volatile, but we'll know soon enough. Keeping my fingers crossed...

 

[andy]

12-19-07

I left the cover off from 3:30pm - 10:00pm tonight with plenty of air circulation. (and my 2 kids splashing around for about an hour)

I also lowered my Total Control ORP setpoint from 650 to 640 and raised my PH setpoint from 7.50 to 7.70

current Total Control readings are:
ORP 657
PH 7.42

Taylor results:
FC 3.0
CC .8
PH 7.2
CYA still the same as the last couple days.

We'll see what the tests show tomarrow night.

 

[chem geek]

If the CC still measures .8 ppm tomorrow, then I want you to try an experiment. Take two clean buckets and fill them with pool water (rinse them a few times with clean fresh tap water first, then rinse them with pool water, then fill them). Take one bucket outside if you have any sun at any time of the day; the other leave inside the pool room. Then after at least one peak sun time during the da (again, if you have any), measure the CC in each bucket. If sunlight reduces the CC, then getting UV onto your pool (somehow) would be one solution.

Of course, I'm assuming the bucket won't freeze over that quickly. I don't know how long it takes in 20 degree weather. Just having the bucket during a few hours of peak sunlight would be fine.

We can also try other methods with the buckets (such as using non-chlorine shock) so as not to waste time with ineffective methods on the pool.

Richard

 

[Poolsean]

Andy,

Just a thought. Do you happen to rinse out your test block before performing these tests? I wonder if any residual water may be still in the test block and may be causing the consistent cc reading.

Usually, rinsing the test block with the pool water a few times before you take your water sample, will eliminate the possibility of water from your last test, affecting the current test.

 

[andy]

Andy,

Just a thought. Do you happen to rinse out your test block before performing these tests? I wonder if any residual water may be still in the test block and may be causing the consistent cc reading.

Usually, rinsing the test block with the pool water a few times before you take your water sample, will eliminate the possibility of water from your last test, affecting the current test.

Yes, I always rinse it out a few times before and after each test. There is 0 chance of anything from the previous test still being there.

 

[andy]

chem geek,

I will post my test results later as I'm trying to test about the same time each night (around 10pm) when my pool has just finished its second 4 hour run cycle. If the CC is still .8 I will do the bucket test tomorrow during the day.

Another question on the bucket test. My wife has a tanning bed here at home. Can I use that for the test which would eliminate the chance of the water freezing? If so how long would be a good amount of time to leave it in the tanning bed? Otherwise I'll put one of the water pails outside for as many sunlight hours as possible without freezing tomorrow.

 

[chem geek]

The tanning bed may not have UV rays in the area that breaks down certain combined chlorine, but I really don't know. You can certainly leave the bucket out during peak noontime for an hour which I doubt will freeze completely over in that time and then if that doesn't show a difference you can try out the tanning bed. This is more just a check to see if the combined chlorine you have is sensitive to UV breakdown -- if it is, then it very likely to be a true "chlorine combined with organic or ammonia" compound. If not, then it leaves open the possibility of being something else producing a false test reading or being a combined chlorine not sensitive to UV.

We'll basically just use bucket tests to find a solution to the CC problem so as to not waste chemicals and effort on the pool as a whole. Anything that takes care of the CC in the bucket should take care of it in the pool. Obviously the quantities of things like MPS that we will add to the bucket in future tests will be very low.

There is good news and bad news with such persistent Combined Chlorine. The good news is that you're probably currently determining that it is not volatile so that means it won't be a respiratory nor occular irritant and probably isn't chloroform which is also volatile. The bad news is that we don't know if it's innocuous or something that can absorb through the skin and be a possible carcinogen (in the long run -- mostly through drinking water). Looking through the list of chlorine disinfection by-products that are considered "possibly" harmful, it looks like the trihalomethanes (THM) are volatile but the haloacetic acids (HAA5) are not though can be absorbed through the skin. Most other chlorine organic compounds likely to form are relatively innocuous.

Do you recall what happened when the CCs started to show up? Was this since the beginning (or soon after) of having the indoor pool or did it happen after adding the SWG or anything else that changed?

Richard

 

[andy]

12-20-07

Taylor results:
FC 2.4
CC .8
PH 7.2

AutoPilot Total Control readings:
ORP 647 (setpoint 640)
PH 7.45 (setoint 7.70)

chem geek,
The pool was installed first and the house built around it. The pool was filled on day 1 and was left covered up for the whole construction process (1 year or so) without running at all. After the house was done the equipment was installed in the indoor mechanical room (Aprox. 6 months ago) The SWG was installed the same time as all the other equipment. I only started testing the pool recently.

I will do the bucket test tomorrow and report back.

 

[andy]

UPS guy delivered my Taylor K-1106 Phosphate test kit today. The kit tests phosphates from 0-1000 ppb
I did the test twice just to verify. Both test show 1000+ ppb

I gather from Poolseans earlier post that this is way high. What can I do to lower it and what is an acceptable ppb reading? Thanks, Andy

 

[chem geek]

Andy,

Test some tap water for phosphates. Then dilute your pool sample with one part pool sample and 3 parts tap water (four parts total) to get a 4:1 dilution and remeasure the phosphates multiplying your result by 4. With these two numbers (tap water and diluted pool water) we can get a better handle of the true phosphate level and where it might be coming from.

Unless the phosphates are above 3000 ppb, the chlorine alone should be able to keep away algae. It doesn't seem like you have any unusual chlorine demand in your pool -- do you know how long your AutoPilot is running every day and how much chlorine it is adding every day (after restabilizing at the new CYA level)?

If it becomes necessary to lower the phosphates, that can be done with phosphate removers which precipitate it (and will then get caught in your filter).

Richard

 

[JasonLion]

If there is a significant level of phosphates in your tap water you will need to do the dilution with distilled water to get a meaningful measurement. My tap water has a phosphate level of 2000-3000 and as a result my pool has a level of 4000-6000. Despite that, I don't have any significant problems. I do need to keep my FC level just slightly higher than I would otherwise, but that is not particularly difficult.

There is a great deal of hype going around around phosphate levels, mostly put out there by companies which are trying to sell you phosphate removers. Knowing your phosphate level may help us figure out what is going on with your pool, but even a fairly high level is nothing to get worried about.

 

[andy]

OK, tested my tap water (twice) which is a well and come up with 0 phosphates.
Did the test using a 3 parts tap and 1 part pool water....still 1000+ppb
Did the test again 5 parts tap and 1 part pool water....still 1000+ppb
I can't really test much lower since dividing the 2-1/4" tube up 6 times is already 3/8".

 

[chem geek]

Wow! I wonder how you got so many phosphates into your pool. If it didn't come from the initial fill which I presume was from your own water (was it?), then the only other source would be from some metal sequestrant products. Since you may have filled from well water that could have had metals, did someone add metal sequestrant to the water, perhaps on startup?

At any rate, you should probably use a phosphate remover to get the levels down, though that's usually the last thing we recommend since it's so expensive and usually isn't needed. But with 6000+ ppb phosphates, that just seems way too high. But wait a bit on that and keep reading because...

The Taylor K-1106 test refers to the following possible interferences with the test:

Silica, ferrous iron, fluoride, and sulfide may cause interference; to prevent, test for suspected interfering agent, dilute sample with DI water as necessary, and retest.

The only item that seems likely from the well water would be ferrous iron (though technically in the presence of chlorine in your pool it should have been converted to ferric iron). Have you had your well water tested for metals (typically iron and copper)? Maybe what you are seeing is just a high level of metals.

And maybe, keeping fingers crossed, the high phosphates or high metals are causing a false reading for Combined Chlorine though that isn't mentioned in the possible interferences in the FAS-DPD chlorine test.

Richard

 

[andy]

I did have my pool water and well water tested for iron (recently) and none showed up. I have though added about 3 or so quarts of ProTeam Metal Magic (over the last few months) to combat brown stains in the pool which are fine now.

To answer your earlier question as to how long the AutoPilot is running (producing chlorine) I have no idea. All I know is the pool runs for two 4 hour blocks each day. 6am-10am and 6pm-10pm

I'm also doing the UV test and will have results tonight.

 

[andy]

Also forgot to mention the initial fill was about 10,000gal trucked in city water and the remaining 10,000 or so was my well.

 

[andy]

Andy,

do you know how long your AutoPilot is running every day and how much chlorine it is adding every day
Richard

Jason or Poolsean, Is this info available with the Total Contol?

 

[JasonLion]

You can find out how long the cell is energized each day but it will take some doing. The Test Pool Pilot option, which comes up when you press the Menu button and then select, will display the total amp hours and the current amps. If you catch it while the cell is on you can find out how many amps it is using at the current power level. Then you need to note down the amp-hours and the time, wait till the next day and note the amp-hours again. The second days amp-hours minus the first days amp hours divided by the number of amps when the cell is on will give you the number of hours the cell has been on between the two readings. You may need to test over several days to get a large enough change in the amp hours reading to give a precise estimate of how much the cell is on each day.