Insufficent watefall pump size !!! What size should i use

[tillys26]

After thinking about this some more, having more than 120 GPM through your filter may not be such a great idea. Because of the high flow rate requirements, you really are better off with a separate plumbing loop. So I take back my previous idea.

You said that you had a 2 HP MaxFlow which might be big enough for your needs. When you get the VS pump, move the 2 HP over to the waterfall and you should definitely get more flow. If it is still not enough, then you may have to look at other options.

Mark u said that having more then 120gpm going thru the filter isnt good but i thought you said i should put the watefall pump AFTER the pump, wouldnt that alleviate any issues of to much pressure going thur the pump ? also crabboy i have a valve that i can turn on just the waterfall or just the slide and even running just the slide it still doesnt put out enough water for the slide, i would like more so my kids are going down a sheet of water down the slide. I really like the idea mark had if you guys think it will work that would be the perfect setup. Also i will go spraypaint the pvc pipes myself tomorrow, im finding its hard to get the pb out here when ya want him to

 

[mas985]

The problem is that if there is 120 GPM coming out of the waterfall pump, there has to be 120 GPM going into it from the filter. So you will have at least 120 GPM going through the filter and sand filters don't work well with high flow rates, they work much better at low flow rates.

You could plumb it ahead of the filter, between the circulation pump and filter but then you won't get the filter benefit. When the waterfall is on, most of the water will bypass the filter and swg and may result in a flow rate too low for the SWG. So originally, I thought this would be a good solution until I thought about the flow rates through the filter. To me that is a deal killer.

So probably your best solution is to get higher HP pump.

 

[Titanium]

tillys26,

Are you in northern or southern CA?

Also from your pictures I couldn't tell whether you had an attached spa or not?

Can you modify your signature to include which control system that you have?

Sorry to hear that your PB did not seem to do any calculations for the water hydraulics. Knowing what you now know, would you use him again to build a pool? It might be useful for others on TFP to know the name of the builder for future reference, that is if you feel comfortable posting his name.

This has been a fun thread to watch. By the way, did your water ever turn clear and sparkling?

Titanium

 

[Guest]

From the photos it looks like you have plenty of room to put in a tee and branch out to the waterfall pump. Should be easy to do and not take very long. The horizontal section right after the filter should work well.

Also, if I would not put a 3 HP pump on 2 1/2" plumbing although I'm sure it has been done. Just not an efficient way to go.

wow, sorry for the bad info, i did not notice that the pipes were that small, i though they were 3 1/2". so nice pool anyway, and listen to these guys, they now what their talking about more than me.

 

[cobra46]

I have an idea to measure the water flow from the waterfall. A couple of bricks placed in just the right spot on the flat area of the waterfall will steer the water into a fairly narrow stream. This stream could be captured with a large plastic garbage bag. The captured water would be at pool level so you wouldn't have to hold the weight of the water.

After you have captured your sample, simply measure the water as you remove it from the bag back into the pool. This may require a helper or two.

I know every plumbing setup is unique but my neighbor has a 2hp hayward pump on his waterfall and he gets tons of water.

 

[tillys26]

tillys26,

Are you in northern or southern CA? Im in Northern California, little town called Ione, its on your way up hwy 88 if your going skiing at kirkwood.

Also from your pictures I couldn't tell whether you had an attached spa or not? No spa

Can you modify your signature to include which control system that you have? I have the AQUA RITE TURBO CELL AND AQUA LOGIC PS 8 unit.

Sorry to hear that your PB did not seem to do any calculations for the water hydraulics. Knowing what you now know, would you use him again to build a pool? It might be useful for others on TFP to know the name of the builder for future reference, that is if you feel comfortable posting his name. I will hold my judgement and naming til i get everything hes was contracted to do ( 36" filter, vs pump,finish my autofill,umbrella sleeves in the deck,outside remote,bring plaster guys back to look at the mottling or whatever its called, concrete guy back to look at a crack in the deck,)

This has been a fun thread to watch. By the way, did your water ever turn clear and sparkling? Yes finally i can see the deep end of the pool,i will post a pic of the whole thing now its done, ill tell ya what i would have swore that it would have never cleared up with the metals issue in the water but LOTS of pop and filtering and this website got me thru it.

Titanium

edit by Divnkd101 to show responses in bold.

 

[Titanium]

tillys26,

Thanks for your responses.

So I see why you did not get a natural gas heater - normally these are used to quickly heat up spas, and you don't have one. And I can see why no heat pump - much of the year it is probably too cold to use a heat pump efficiently.

I see from your response that you are waiting for the Hayward variable speed pump. Has your builder said when Hayward will be able to provide this pump? This is a completely new product for Hayward, and I think you will be one of the first in the country to get one of these. It should not be too bad, though, since the technology to implement these variable speed pumps is fairly straightforward.

If I may be a little nosy, how much is your PB charging for the Hayward variable speed pump? And how/where will he be mounting the separate panel containing the variable speed drive? If the delivery seems too far off, or the price seems out of whack, you might consider an Ikeric variable speed pool pump. I just bought the system (pump/motor and separate variable speed drive panel) from Holiday Pools in Chico, CA for $1050 ($1146.12 after sales tax and $20 shipping). Interestingly, my Ikeric system came with the exact same pump/motor being used for the Hayward variable speed pump. So the only thing different if you went with the Ikeric system instead of the Hayward system would be the control panel.

Although, come to think of it, the Hayward variable speed pump panel can be ordered with a $100 option that supposedly allows it to talk with the Aqua Logic control system, which I assume is able to use less of the valuable high voltage relays (8 for your system) for calling for different speeds. One of the ways the Ikeric can call for one of the 4 possible speeds is by the use of one high voltage relay per speed. And I think, not sure, that your Hayward variable speed pump can have 6 separate speeds, whereas the Ikeric can only have 4 separate speeds. The difference between 4 speeds versus 6 speeds makes no difference in my case, but may in yours.

Good luck with everything.

Titanium

 

[LeeD]

Definitely a good looking pool! We have built quite a few waterfall/slide combinations like this here in central/northern cali. The 120gpm tristar is a good pump, but a little undersized for the job. Ideally, I would have wanted a little larger plumbing, but you can still get plenty of water flow out of this. The Northstar pumps work quite well for the job. 3hp is probably a little overkill with your plumbing, but would work. a 2hp should be plenty with that amount of head though. On our pools, we usually run 3" suction and 2 1/2" returns to the waterfall. We also have a valved line coming from the filter pump to the waterfall for a little extra boost when needed. (so that you can run two pumps to the waterfall at the same time) I would think that in your case, changing that 120gpm tristar to a 2-3 hp northstar would make a big difference.

As for the hayward vs pump, I have seen a couple in operation, and they seem to be excellent. I like the design much better than the Pentair equivalent. I haven't seen any long term installs yet of course, so I will be interested to see how they hold up.

 

[mixsig]

This is an old thread, but I'll add my two cents in case it helps anyone out in the future.

I have a waterfall + slide which I'm supporting with an isolated loop and a 0.33hp (low speed of 2 speed) pump.

I had the stone masons take out a level and place it across the top surface of each level of the waterfall and work the stone to be as straight and level as possible. Once that was done it was obvious that the water was flowing well as I got good adhesion of the water to the stone and it ends up dripping off the bottom edge.

I talked to someone else who had a score placed along the bottom of the stone ledge to create a drip line to enhance the curtaining of the water. I'll be giving that a try soon on mine as soon as my 5 month old allows me to spend time on projects again!

 

[tillys26]

This is an old thread, but I'll add my two cents in case it helps anyone out in the future.

I have a waterfall + slide which I'm supporting with an isolated loop and a 0.33hp (low speed of 2 speed) pump.

I had the stone masons take out a level and place it across the top surface of each level of the waterfall and work the stone to be as straight and level as possible. Once that was done it was obvious that the water was flowing well as I got good adhesion of the water to the stone and it ends up dripping off the bottom edge.

I talked to someone else who had a score placed along the bottom of the stone ledge to create a drip line to enhance the curtaining of the water. I'll be giving that a try soon on mine as soon as my 5 month old allows me to spend time on projects again!

Thanks , i still watch this post , and i just bought a new 2hp tristar pump on ebay for $312 delivered so i figured i couldnt beat it and won the bid, anyways ill let ya know how that works out and yes my masons also made it level , i just dont really have the water output to make it look fluid enough when it comes off the top

 

[tillys26]

Definitely a good looking pool! We have built quite a few waterfall/slide combinations like this here in central/northern cali. The 120gpm tristar is a good pump, but a little undersized for the job. Ideally, I would have wanted a little larger plumbing, but you can still get plenty of water flow out of this. The Northstar pumps work quite well for the job. 3hp is probably a little overkill with your plumbing, but would work. a 2hp should be plenty with that amount of head though. On our pools, we usually run 3" suction and 2 1/2" returns to the waterfall. We also have a valved line coming from the filter pump to the waterfall for a little extra boost when needed. (so that you can run two pumps to the waterfall at the same time) I would think that in your case, changing that 120gpm tristar to a 2-3 hp northstar would make a big difference.

As for the hayward vs pump, I have seen a couple in operation, and they seem to be excellent. I like the design much better than the Pentair equivalent. I haven't seen any long term installs yet of course, so I will be interested to see how they hold up.

Do you think the tristar max rated 2hp pump will be suffice, i got a pretty good deal on one and figure it should be the same as the tristar waterfall pump when it comes to fitting right up to the existing plumbing. Im crossing my fingers i get alot better action out of this pump,ill let you guys know and post some pics of the difference in the two thanks again

 

[cliff_s]

Upon looking at your picture you posted. It looks like your complaint is that the water doesn't
flow evenly over the water fall. This is because the rock shelf is not flat. If you add more water
you will have the same problem only the water will be deeper in the low spots. In order for the
water to flow even across the edge the shelf will have to be leveled and the edge ground
even.

Hayward makes a product called Shear Decent which has only a 1/4" slot for the water to flow
through. This gives a nice even water curtain. When the water flows over uneven rocks it is almost
impossible to get a even flow.

A larger pump is not going to even the water flow.

Cliff s

 

[LeeD]

If we go by Hayward's specifications, the waterfall pump is a very low head pump. Depending on the distance from the pump to the waterfall, the max rated 1.5hp could put out nearly twice as much water as the waterfall pump. The Less head, the less of a difference though.

Cliff is definitely correct though. More water MAY help with the problem, but if the spillway is too uneven, you'll just have more water coming out of the same spots. Get some bricks or something that is heavy enough to stay in place. Put them in the path of the water to make it flow out the other areas of the waterfall that aren't getting any water. You can experiment with this until you like the look of it. Once you know where to put them, find some rocks that match your waterfall and do the same thing.
You could also get a grinder and clean up the edge of the spillway, as well as find the high spots that are causing it to flow poorly and grind them down. It looks like you have real stone, so if you are careful, grinding will not look bad.

 

[carlos31]

hopefully this is helpful

I will have a cascading rock waterfall on my pool which will be about six feet wide at the bottom. When researching what size of pump I needed I found this information somewhere on the web but it was based on weir thickness. It stated that a 1/4 inch weir required 10gpm per foot of weir, a 1/2 inch weir required 20gpm per foot of weir and a 3/4 inch weir required 30gpm per foot per weir. They also characterized the 1/4 inch wier as being more calming and the 3/4 inch weir of having more "action".

Now having said that neither of our a waterfalls will have a factory weir per say but I guess the lip bewteen the waterfall spillway and the waterfall holding pool at the top of the waterfall could be considered the weir???????

To be honest I gave up on trying to calculate this. Using a five gallon bucket of water over some test rocks I have realized that my expectations may not be achievable. I have 3 inch return (120ft) and 3 inch suction (65ft) (3 two inch lines into a three inch pipe). I will either use the 180 GPM Pentair Challenger Waterfall pump or the 4X160 Intelliflow. With the Intelliflo I give up about 20gpm in exchange for control of the waterflow. And just to complicate things I also am planning for a slide which can handle up to 40gpm per the manufacturer. So the waterfall will need to suffer when the kids are using the slide!

 

[LeeD]

Carlos -
I believe the weir ratings your are seeing are for 'sheer descent' style water features. These have a formed plastic lip that forces the water into a smooth sheet. 20gpm per foot of sheer descent is a typical measurement.
For your waterfall, You should be able to get plenty of flow through those 3" pipes to make that waterfall look great. I'm not sure if the 160gpm pump will be enough, but it should still look good. How far is the equipment from the waterfall? How high above pump level is the top of the waterfall, where the pipe ends? If we know how much head there is, we can find the best pump for the application.

 

[carlos31]

pump for large water feature

LeeD,

The suction side is three 2 inch lines running 6 feet each - they individually T into a single 3 inch line. The 3 inch line runs 102ft and has (3) 90 degree elbows to the pump intake. (no pump has been installed yet)

The return side is 147ft of 3 inch pipe plus a 7-8 foot vertical rise. It has (6) 90 degree elbows and probably a T at the top with each end open to dump water into a reservoir at the top of the waterfall. Or I guess I could direct 2 inch lines in different directions. I am not sure how a typical installation is conducted. I was not going to use a factory weir.

Any advice you can offer is appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[LeeD]

Sounds like you're going to need something that still performs well with a lot of head. The 'waterfall' specialty pumps are typically designed for low head applications. It sounds like your plumbing is well done, I would look into a 3HP pump, such as the Hayward Tri-Star (My favorite), or a Pentair WhisperFlo. The Hayward Northstar pumps would work well too, but if something ever goes wrong with them they are difficult to work on.

For the waterfall end of the plumbing, you may want to experiment with different fittings. A 'T' could make a lot of splashing around, but could work well. I like using a T and two 90's, with the elbows aiming down.

 

[carlos31]

what is low-head

I figured the head. 3inch line at 175 gpm = 6.2/100ft 90 degree elbow = 4.4ft pipe equivalent

According to my calc the suction head = about 7 ft and the return head = about 19 ft (10.85 plus the 8ft vertical)

so total head = 26 ft at 175 gpm

I guess I don't understand when you would use a low head pump if not in this situation. I guess I should have used 4 inch line then it really would have been low head. I will try to get information by examining the Pentair documentation. If 26 ft isn't low head then I am not sure what is. I will reply back if I can figure it out.

 

[carlos31]

figured it out

Ok, I found the pump curve for the Pentair Challenger 180gpm waterfall pump. It will only move 180gpm at 7ft of head.

Since its marketed as a waterfall pump you would expect to need to raise water at least a few feet vertically. The only scenario I can create in which this pump produces 180gpm for a waterfall application would require putting the pump inside the waterfall near the top or its a 2 ft tall waterfall.

I do indeed need a medium head pump as LeeD stated. I guess low head is REALLY LOW head.

Can anyone recommend a pump to move 160 to 200 gpm at 26ft of head?

 

[JasonLion]

The Pentair WhispreFlo full rated 3 HP pump should be able to handle that just fine.