Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with a pool builder who is a bully? My inground pool was built this past year (in February) and at the time the builder was bending over backwards for me since he had no other work. There have been many problems with the installation and I could not get them back out here this summer because they got busy. Now that work has slacked off they want to "remedy" my problems by installing a new liner. The weather is getting colder here with nights below freezing and each day is different (just as it was when they installed the pool), sometimes 40, 60, 30, 50, etc. After receiving advice here from Waste regarding the recommended temperature for installing a liner and speaking with the liner manufacturer I determined it would be best to wait until the spring. However, the pool builder told me today it would be done NOW because he wants his final payment and to get me taken care of. (Sidenote: I know never make the final payment until the work is complete! He had gotten really nasty to me coming to my house and calling me and saying he wouldn't finish the work until I paid him and threatening to put a lien on my house, etc., so . . . I acted in good faith and paid him and got screwed. I called my credit card company on the 60th, and last day, to contest the charge and received my money back on the final payment -- hence the readiness now to remedy the problem and the bullying). Since I am female (husband deceased) and no man to get in his face I need advice on how to handled him. Please! Thank you in advance for your help.
How to handle a Pool Builder bully?
- Thread starter Dee
- Start date
Did you explain to him the reason that you want to wait until the spring? I don't know anything about liners but I can see his point that he wants to resolve issue and complete the job. Perhaps you could get something in writing from the liner manufactor regarding the best temps to do this. I would explain that this is what man. says and that as much as you/he want this job to be completed, you want it done RIGHT. I would point out he has had x many months to "get me taken care of" and deal with the issues at hand and he chose to put you on the back burner. Now this his time is right, the temp. is not. If he bullys you or threatens you, I would call the BBB pronto!! I hate bullys. Good luck. Where are ya girl...I'll come and rumbled with him 
Don’t for a second think that the fact you are a woman reduces your ability to deal with these sorts of people.
As a matter of fact the “getting in someone’s face†approach almost never works.
This fact is illustrated by his methods. That is to say the majority of people do react in the typical threatening manner.
He sees it so much that he is proactively managing for that eventual out come.
But as a woman (sans the mind numbing testosterone) you are in an excellent position to counter with kindness, facts and more facts.
You have done your homework with the manufacturer so simply state that to him.
He can’t deny your concerns if your trepidation is based in fact. (Backed up by the manufacturer)
Just stay level headed and never let him get your goat. That will be your greatest weapon.
Don’t get angry or upset in any manner. (As far as he can see) and you will likely win in the end.
I would contact the regional material rep. to ask how this installation would affect the manufactures warranty.
One last tip – remember what his motivations are this is his livelihood and he believes you are unnecessarily affecting his schedule and money.
Just my 2 cents and good luck with this.
As a matter of fact the “getting in someone’s face†approach almost never works.
This fact is illustrated by his methods. That is to say the majority of people do react in the typical threatening manner.
He sees it so much that he is proactively managing for that eventual out come.
But as a woman (sans the mind numbing testosterone) you are in an excellent position to counter with kindness, facts and more facts.
You have done your homework with the manufacturer so simply state that to him.
He can’t deny your concerns if your trepidation is based in fact. (Backed up by the manufacturer)
Just stay level headed and never let him get your goat. That will be your greatest weapon.
Don’t get angry or upset in any manner. (As far as he can see) and you will likely win in the end.
I would contact the regional material rep. to ask how this installation would affect the manufactures warranty.
One last tip – remember what his motivations are this is his livelihood and he believes you are unnecessarily affecting his schedule and money.
Just my 2 cents and good luck with this.
Thank you for your advice. Unfortunately, I have already done what you guys have advised so far (except getting it in writing from the manufacturer which I will do tomorrow and ask about the warranty). My southern upbringing has always taught me you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I have remained polite and calm (non-judgemental or accusing) and have explained that I just want the job done right in order to prevent any future problems. I know the builder just wants his money and has no real concern for the job. Thanks for the 2 cents -- anybody got 4?
Dee, sounds like you've got a little 'ammo' for dealing with this guy.
1) His first attempt at installing the liner ended up with a sub-standard job! What proof do you have that he can do it properly this time?
2) He harassed you into giving up the final payment, even though the job was NOT to your satisfaction, and then ignored you/ performing the fix for 2 months (
on using the credit card and then contesting the charge when he didn't make good on his end!)
Now all you have to do is write up a legal document which says that you'll pay the final payment when the new liner is successfully installed to your satisfaction, and give you til the middle of next summer to release him from the obligation to refund 200% of the cost of the liner, so that you can get a new liner and have someone who knows what they're doing install it (on second thought, make it $5000 - if this guy really hacked the job up, it may take about that amount to fix it) You can also add whatever you want to the 'modified' contract, if it were me - I'd have something saying that he is no longer allowed to have vowels in his name (it's a negotiable point, but if you end up shooting him - it shows a little prior imbalance on your part for the 'insanity plea' in court
)
It'd be interesting to know how the original contract read, just to see what you may be entitled to
Good luck with your dealings with this guy! and if I can be of any further help, don't hesitate to ask :angel:
1) His first attempt at installing the liner ended up with a sub-standard job! What proof do you have that he can do it properly this time?
2) He harassed you into giving up the final payment, even though the job was NOT to your satisfaction, and then ignored you/ performing the fix for 2 months (
on using the credit card and then contesting the charge when he didn't make good on his end!)Now all you have to do is write up a legal document which says that you'll pay the final payment when the new liner is successfully installed to your satisfaction, and give you til the middle of next summer to release him from the obligation to refund 200% of the cost of the liner, so that you can get a new liner and have someone who knows what they're doing install it (on second thought, make it $5000 - if this guy really hacked the job up, it may take about that amount to fix it) You can also add whatever you want to the 'modified' contract, if it were me - I'd have something saying that he is no longer allowed to have vowels in his name (it's a negotiable point, but if you end up shooting him - it shows a little prior imbalance on your part for the 'insanity plea' in court
)It'd be interesting to know how the original contract read, just to see what you may be entitled to
Good luck with your dealings with this guy! and if I can be of any further help, don't hesitate to ask :angel:
Thanks Waste for the "ammo"! I'm working on the "modified" contract now -- which I'm sure will get their attention since it involves $$$$$, and waiting for the liner manufacturer to open so I can give them a call.
I'm getting alot of pressure from them today. They want to come out but after a summer of no rain, today's forecast is -- you guessed it! -- rain and thunderstorms for today and tonight. This is what the caused the problems before. It rained and the liner floated, water got behind the liner (which they didn't get out), liner dropped from coping and they punctured it with their fingernails pulling it back up. Talk about 20/20 hindsight -- I sure wish they had it!
The only reason I thought to check my statement was that a little voice told me to! Maybe I should listen to the voices more -- especially if they start discussing vowels :lol:
The contract is theirs so it covers them more than me. There is a clause that states "any substantial defect occurs in the workmanship of the pool, it will be remedied without cost to the Owner provided that written notice is given the company within one (1) year after completion of work". I did this and hand delivered it to the company months ago but never heard from them.
There's also another clause that states they don't have to do anything until they are paid in full which is the main reason I paid them the final payment. Unfortunately, this didn't get a response from them either. Technically they have been paid, but since that little voice, I'm holding the money for them.
I am having a little trouble wording the new "modified" contract - help here would be greatly appreciated Thanks!
I'm getting alot of pressure from them today. They want to come out but after a summer of no rain, today's forecast is -- you guessed it! -- rain and thunderstorms for today and tonight. This is what the caused the problems before. It rained and the liner floated, water got behind the liner (which they didn't get out), liner dropped from coping and they punctured it with their fingernails pulling it back up. Talk about 20/20 hindsight -- I sure wish they had it!
The only reason I thought to check my statement was that a little voice told me to! Maybe I should listen to the voices more -- especially if they start discussing vowels :lol:
The contract is theirs so it covers them more than me. There is a clause that states "any substantial defect occurs in the workmanship of the pool, it will be remedied without cost to the Owner provided that written notice is given the company within one (1) year after completion of work". I did this and hand delivered it to the company months ago but never heard from them.
There's also another clause that states they don't have to do anything until they are paid in full which is the main reason I paid them the final payment. Unfortunately, this didn't get a response from them either. Technically they have been paid, but since that little voice, I'm holding the money for them.
I am having a little trouble wording the new "modified" contract - help here would be greatly appreciated
Thanks!Update:
Well, I have spoken with the liner manufacturer and his recommendation was dry weather with several days of consistant mid 60 degree temps. I couldn't get this in writing but I did get his name for reference if the pb questions me about my liner information.
I'm on well water and back in February when the pool was being built I asked if they could bring a water truck out or use the fire hydrant down the road as a water source because I was afraid my well might dry up. The pb told me that wasn't an option because the water pressure would be too great. Now that they are wanting to get me taken care of, they have made arrangements to use the fire hydrant (pb's son works for fire dept.). Since I had been told two different things by pb I asked the liner manuf. if it would be ok to use the firehose and he said "yes, that the pressure could be adjusted"and he had done that once to fill up his pool. Now why am I not surprised?
OK, now if I could get a little help with the legalese on a modified contract from one of you out there in pool land I'll be set to talk with them again. Thanks in advance for the help!
Well, I have spoken with the liner manufacturer and his recommendation was dry weather with several days of consistant mid 60 degree temps. I couldn't get this in writing but I did get his name for reference if the pb questions me about my liner information.
I'm on well water and back in February when the pool was being built I asked if they could bring a water truck out or use the fire hydrant down the road as a water source because I was afraid my well might dry up. The pb told me that wasn't an option because the water pressure would be too great. Now that they are wanting to get me taken care of, they have made arrangements to use the fire hydrant (pb's son works for fire dept.). Since I had been told two different things by pb I asked the liner manuf. if it would be ok to use the firehose and he said "yes, that the pressure could be adjusted"and he had done that once to fill up his pool. Now why am I not surprised?
OK, now if I could get a little help with the legalese on a modified contract from one of you out there in pool land I'll be set to talk with them again. Thanks in advance for the help!
Dee, I'm at a little of a loss to tell you how to word the modified contract, I'm not a lawyer and have no legal training - however, why should that stop me?
First though, let me comment on using the fire hydrant - It's a very viable source, the town charges you for the water used and the fire dept. charges for renting the hoses, etc. We always use water trucks to fill the pools enough to 'set' the liners, the cost is on the pool owner. DO NOT :!: let them direct the flow onto the floor of the pool, the pressure will cause wrinkles - rather, have them direct the water onto a wall in the deep end, after there's ~ 2 & 1/2' of water in the deep end, they can turn the hose to hit the water. If you have a MD, let the water flow until there is ~ 6" of water in the 'hopper' then kill the flow and they can install the MD faceplate and cut the liner out. (Honest to God, if these guys need to be told how to fill a pool, you chose the WRONG company!)
Back to pseudo- legalease :
Referring to the PB as 'scumbag' or 'jackas*' is probably not a good idea (satisfying as it may be)
What I would do is write up what you want & expect from the job (like, a wrinkle free liner with no holes in it and no dips or lumps - larger than ~1/8" in the floor and NOTHING!! sharp or protruding under the liner and things like no leaks in the plumbing or from where they have to cut out the liner for suction ports and returns)
Then add something to the extent of; I expect the work to be good for another 6 months AFTER the pool is opened in the spring and has been in use for that time - (a legitimate concern, the pool will probably be closed right after the liner is dropped, with a cover on it, you can't see what's going on nor feel around for potential problems) {speaking of which, have the lines blown out of water BEFORE the new liner goes in, this is a perfect time to clear the lines and have them wait until spring to cut out the liner, if they don't cut it out now, there is no chance of water entering the lines and freezing}
Add something to the effect of "since they are obviously, as shown by the results of their first attempt to install your liner, not reliable in their ability to properly install THIS liner,, -- should they fail again you want $#### to procure a new liner and have someone who can do it correctly install the new liner"
I'd also add something stating that if they are to go out of business, you require 30 days notice (so you can sue them while they are still in business) and they are still fully responsible for fixing any problems with the new liner and everything that they were responsible for as per the original contract.
Don't forget to have them remove all offensive vowels
Type up the above as 'legal - sounding' as you can and run it by a lawyer for the polishing touches and to be sure that it's a document that would stand up in court! It may cost you some $ to get the lawyer to do this, but it's a consultation, so shouldn't be too much - then you also have the lawyer 'in your pocket' if things come down to a lawsuit.
That's my BEST advice for you - I'll be here for an 'expert's' appraisal for you or your lawyer if it comes down to it (though I hope it won't and that the new liner is everything the first one SHOULD have been)
Edit:-- I forgot to mention putting in a clause that would make the PB have to pay any legal fees (court costs and your lawyer fees) if you end up having to take him to court
First though, let me comment on using the fire hydrant - It's a very viable source, the town charges you for the water used and the fire dept. charges for renting the hoses, etc. We always use water trucks to fill the pools enough to 'set' the liners, the cost is on the pool owner. DO NOT :!: let them direct the flow onto the floor of the pool, the pressure will cause wrinkles - rather, have them direct the water onto a wall in the deep end, after there's ~ 2 & 1/2' of water in the deep end, they can turn the hose to hit the water. If you have a MD, let the water flow until there is ~ 6" of water in the 'hopper' then kill the flow and they can install the MD faceplate and cut the liner out. (Honest to God, if these guys need to be told how to fill a pool, you chose the WRONG company!)
Back to pseudo- legalease :
Referring to the PB as 'scumbag' or 'jackas*' is probably not a good idea (satisfying as it may be
)What I would do is write up what you want & expect from the job (like, a wrinkle free liner with no holes in it and no dips or lumps - larger than ~1/8" in the floor and NOTHING!! sharp or protruding under the liner and things like no leaks in the plumbing or from where they have to cut out the liner for suction ports and returns)
Then add something to the extent of; I expect the work to be good for another 6 months AFTER the pool is opened in the spring and has been in use for that time - (a legitimate concern, the pool will probably be closed right after the liner is dropped, with a cover on it, you can't see what's going on nor feel around for potential problems) {speaking of which, have the lines blown out of water BEFORE the new liner goes in, this is a perfect time to clear the lines and have them wait until spring to cut out the liner, if they don't cut it out now, there is no chance of water entering the lines and freezing}
Add something to the effect of "since they are obviously, as shown by the results of their first attempt to install your liner, not reliable in their ability to properly install THIS liner,, -- should they fail again you want $#### to procure a new liner and have someone who can do it correctly install the new liner"
I'd also add something stating that if they are to go out of business, you require 30 days notice (so you can sue them while they are still in business) and they are still fully responsible for fixing any problems with the new liner and everything that they were responsible for as per the original contract.
Don't forget to have them remove all offensive vowels
Type up the above as 'legal - sounding' as you can and run it by a lawyer for the polishing touches and to be sure that it's a document that would stand up in court! It may cost you some $ to get the lawyer to do this, but it's a consultation, so shouldn't be too much - then you also have the lawyer 'in your pocket' if things come down to a lawsuit.
That's my BEST advice for you - I'll be here for an 'expert's' appraisal for you or your lawyer if it comes down to it (though I hope it won't and that the new liner is everything the first one SHOULD have been)
Edit:-- I forgot to mention putting in a clause that would make the PB have to pay any legal fees (court costs and your lawyer fees) if you end up having to take him to court
Sounds like your PB needs alittle New York beat down! :lol:
I have had similar problems with my PB. The job started late May 2007 and it should of been completed by early August. And much to my amazement it's still not finished! Waiting for the pool cover to be installed, suppoedly there was a long wait on the cover, which is BS. I have a Fiber Glass, rectangle 35x16 pool. Simple dimenssions to get a cover.
Any way, the electrician on the job has been calling me repeatly and telling me that he will nto release the final inspection certificate because he has not gotten paid from the PB. So he wants me to pay him (the electrician) and stiff the PB his portion. Whatever the issues are between the PB and the electrician, my contract for payment is with my PB. So I did the next best thing, cost me $150, I had my lawyer send the electrician a nice letter telling him basically to go to heck, and that I would file a complaint with the town to have his electrical license revoked! And wouldn't you know it, the pool cover is getting installed this weekend, and my PB is dropping off my final inspection paper work!
Remember most bullys are pretenders! If you are louder and get in their face they will back down and given in to your demands.
Edited by SeanB - this is a family site, so please watch the language.
thanks.
I have had similar problems with my PB. The job started late May 2007 and it should of been completed by early August. And much to my amazement it's still not finished! Waiting for the pool cover to be installed, suppoedly there was a long wait on the cover, which is BS. I have a Fiber Glass, rectangle 35x16 pool. Simple dimenssions to get a cover.
Any way, the electrician on the job has been calling me repeatly and telling me that he will nto release the final inspection certificate because he has not gotten paid from the PB. So he wants me to pay him (the electrician) and stiff the PB his portion. Whatever the issues are between the PB and the electrician, my contract for payment is with my PB. So I did the next best thing, cost me $150, I had my lawyer send the electrician a nice letter telling him basically to go to heck, and that I would file a complaint with the town to have his electrical license revoked! And wouldn't you know it, the pool cover is getting installed this weekend, and my PB is dropping off my final inspection paper work!
Remember most bullys are pretenders! If you are louder and get in their face they will back down and given in to your demands.
Edited by SeanB - this is a family site, so please watch the language.
thanks.
Congratulations coolpackard! :-D I'm glad you are finally getting some results! It's a shame that we have to resort to actions like these to get them to uphold their end of a contract. Unfortunately, everyone that I've talked to that has a pool in my area say all PBs from their experience are pretty much like that. I'm sure there are some good ones out there and you folks that got one -- I hope you appreciate and realize how lucky you are! I did all the research that's recommended and thought I was getting the best PB in my area. If this is one of the good ones I really hate to think of all the people that use the other guys.
Our temps are suppose to be mid 60's from tomorrow (Saturday) on through next weekend, so I'm taking the advice of the liner manufacturer and having the PB come out on Tuesday to do the reinstallation. When I called them I asked if I was going to be charged for the water and the answer was "No". My neighbor had the same PB reinstall his liner a while back and they used the fire hydrant and all was ok (but he's also one of those people you don't want to EVER make mad), so I'm keeping my fingers crossed and praying they still remember how to do it but you can bet I WILL be out there overseeing and directing since I have been enlightened by Waste on pool filling with a fire hose.
They had planned to pump the pool water into my run off ditch behind the pond but I reminded them that they had filled up the ditch with dirt, brush, etc. and that they had never finished the dozing and ditching so there's nowhere for the water to go (yeah, there's other stuff I haven't mentioned ). They're now thinking they'll dump it in the pond. I switched to BBB (they also don't like that I don't buy all their pool chems) and am wondering if this is ok to do. Anybody see a problem dumping the pool water in the pond (no livestock drinking out of it and not many fish, mainly just frogs which I wouldn't mind losing a few -- it'll cut down on my fishing them out of the pool)? It's a pretty good size pond even though the water level has dropped drastically due to our drought. (16'x32' - 17,000+gallons)
I've been working on the modified contract (found a site that has free contracts and used a contractor/owner contract and made some adjustments taking Waste's advice --thanks. Now I'm wondering if I should take it in on Monday to the store and get them to sign it or just wait until they get here on Tuesday and get the signature. I'm thinking if they intend to do the job right this time and not rush through it they should have no problem signing. I tried to get in to see a lawyer but it's too short notice. They will definitely have a problem with the clause about me withholding the final payment for a period of time until I make sure their work holds up. Which leads to another question(s) . . as a newbie . .
I was thinking about not closing the pool for the winter so would you still recommend getting the lines blown out now and have the liner cut later? Is it an option to basically do everything but put a cover on the pool? I've never seen this question before but with a cat, dogs, and birds I don't think the water bags would last a week. I was planning on just running the pump on those handful of nights we dip to freezing or below. My main concern is a power outage but can't remember a major one except 20+ years ago when we had a blizzard. Could I use a sump pump if it rained alot to drain the water before it got behind the coping? If they cut it out later, they'd at least have to come back and we could see how the work was holding up before the final payment was made. Also, is there more chance something going wrong in the winter or in the summer months with a vinyl liner??
Thanks again for the support and advice I've received so far. I look forward to your feedback !
I'm sure there are some good ones out there and you folks that got one -- I hope you appreciate and realize how lucky you are! I did all the research that's recommended and thought I was getting the best PB in my area. If this is one of the good ones I really hate to think of all the people that use the other guys.Our temps are suppose to be mid 60's from tomorrow (Saturday) on through next weekend, so I'm taking the advice of the liner manufacturer and having the PB come out on Tuesday to do the reinstallation. When I called them I asked if I was going to be charged for the water and the answer was "No". My neighbor had the same PB reinstall his liner a while back and they used the fire hydrant and all was ok (but he's also one of those people you don't want to EVER make mad), so I'm keeping my fingers crossed and praying they still remember how to do it but you can bet I WILL be out there overseeing and directing since I have been enlightened by Waste on pool filling with a fire hose.
They had planned to pump the pool water into my run off ditch behind the pond but I reminded them that they had filled up the ditch with dirt, brush, etc. and that they had never finished the dozing and ditching so there's nowhere for the water to go (yeah, there's other stuff I haven't mentioned
). They're now thinking they'll dump it in the pond. I switched to BBB (they also don't like that I don't buy all their pool chems) and am wondering if this is ok to do. Anybody see a problem dumping the pool water in the pond (no livestock drinking out of it and not many fish, mainly just frogs which I wouldn't mind losing a few -- it'll cut down on my fishing them out of the pool)? It's a pretty good size pond even though the water level has dropped drastically due to our drought. (16'x32' - 17,000+gallons)I've been working on the modified contract (found a site that has free contracts and used a contractor/owner contract and made some adjustments taking Waste's advice --thanks
. Now I'm wondering if I should take it in on Monday to the store and get them to sign it or just wait until they get here on Tuesday and get the signature. I'm thinking if they intend to do the job right this time and not rush through it they should have no problem signing. I tried to get in to see a lawyer but it's too short notice. They will definitely have a problem with the clause about me withholding the final payment for a period of time until I make sure their work holds up. Which leads to another question(s) . . as a newbie . . I was thinking about not closing the pool for the winter so would you still recommend getting the lines blown out now and have the liner cut later? Is it an option to basically do everything but put a cover on the pool? I've never seen this question before but with a cat, dogs, and birds I don't think the water bags would last a week. I was planning on just running the pump on those handful of nights we dip to freezing or below. My main concern is a power outage but can't remember a major one except 20+ years ago when we had a blizzard. Could I use a sump pump if it rained alot to drain the water before it got behind the coping? If they cut it out later, they'd at least have to come back and we could see how the work was holding up before the final payment was made. Also, is there more chance something going wrong in the winter or in the summer months with a vinyl liner??
Thanks again for the support and advice I've received so far. I look forward to your feedback !
Dee, first - I'm glad I 'enlightened' someone.
I must have misspoke myself, I intended to tell you to pay the final payment as soon as the new liner is installed, but have the new contract to hold over their heads until you are sure that the job is to your satisfaction. This way, you have the new contract to supersede the old one. (doing it this way makes him happy to get the $$ while also protecting you -- I'd take it in Monday just to be sure that he'll come out Tues to drop the liner, if he 'balks' on signing it on Tues, you don't get the job completed. If you do it this way, you satisfy his desire for the final payment (which will encourage him to do the job) while maintaining his obligation to you, and making it worth his while to do the job correctly as it will cost him $$$ to screw-up again.
As for dumping the pool water into the pond (I'd do it, but it's probably not 'environmentally friendly' to the water), the chlorine in your pool WILL kill some of the stuff in there :sad: -- however, the water has to go somewhere.
If your not going to close the pool, of course have them 'cut-in' the liner so that you can run the pump when the water gets close to freezing!
Dee, if you need any advice from me before Monday, I'll be checking the forum a few times this weekend
I really hope that they can install the liner correctly this time :!: --and we will all be here for you so that you finally have a 'trouble free pool'
I must have misspoke myself, I intended to tell you to pay the final payment as soon as the new liner is installed, but have the new contract to hold over their heads until you are sure that the job is to your satisfaction. This way, you have the new contract to supersede the old one. (doing it this way makes him happy to get the $$ while also protecting you -- I'd take it in Monday just to be sure that he'll come out Tues to drop the liner, if he 'balks' on signing it on Tues, you don't get the job completed. If you do it this way, you satisfy his desire for the final payment (which will encourage him to do the job) while maintaining his obligation to you, and making it worth his while to do the job correctly as it will cost him $$$ to screw-up again.
As for dumping the pool water into the pond (I'd do it, but it's probably not 'environmentally friendly' to the water), the chlorine in your pool WILL kill some of the stuff in there :sad: -- however, the water has to go somewhere.
If your not going to close the pool, of course have them 'cut-in' the liner so that you can run the pump when the water gets close to freezing!
Dee, if you need any advice from me before Monday, I'll be checking the forum a few times this weekend
I really hope that they can install the liner correctly this time :!: --and we will all be here for you so that you finally have a 'trouble free pool'
Well, here's my latest update for all those wondering...
I called pb's business yesterday and asked where my new liner was. Mr. X, who is an officer of the company, said probably on the truck. I reminded him that the liner manufacturer recommended it be kept indoors and warm prior to installation. He said my credit card company had notified him that they would be taking my $$ from their account tomorrow and asked me to call them and tell them not to. I told him you get the liner indoors and keep it warm and I'll call the credit card company.
I called the card company and was told if I drop contesting the charge that I can't bring it up again. It was recommended to not do it to instead wait until the liner was installed and then I was told it would also be good to have a signed written agreement between both parties. (I wasn't going to do what Mr. X wanted me to do -- (does he think I'm that stupid?), but I did want to honestly say I had held up my end and called them.)
Later last evening pb let me know that they were changing the day I had requested them come out. Their reason being: it might take them longer - they had gotten more hose to run to the pond but had also gotten some "containers" that would hold varying amounts of water, 500 to 1000 gallons, so they were hoping to reuse about 2000-3000 gallons of my water. Not wanting to seem unreasonable and hard to get along with I said ok.
This morning I put the finishing touches on the modified contract (many, many thanks here to Waste my mentor!! :bowdown: ) and took it to their place of business. The owner wasn't there but Mr. X was. (Sidenote: I had dealt with Mr. X prior. According to our original contract: "If any substantial defect occurs in the workmanship of the pool, it will be remedied without cost to the owner provided that written notice thereof is given the company within one (1) year after completion." When I took my written complaint in, Mr. X had signed it and made me a copy). I told Mr. X what the card company had told me. He got very upset that they would be taking money out of the account today. I presented him with the contract, he read it and said he couldn't sign it. I left the contract with him and just reminded him they were planning on being at my place this Monday morning.
When pb told me last night they'd be here at 8:00 AM Monday to get started he also told me to leave my gate unlocked and they'd come in and not bother me. I told him I'd be up and it wasn't a bother. I guess now I'll leave the gate locked and meet them there and see if they bring a signed copy of the contract with them.
OK, now it's input time, make your $.02 count . . . if they bring me a copy signed all is good, but what if they don't??
I called pb's business yesterday and asked where my new liner was. Mr. X, who is an officer of the company, said probably on the truck. I reminded him that the liner manufacturer recommended it be kept indoors and warm prior to installation. He said my credit card company had notified him that they would be taking my $$ from their account tomorrow and asked me to call them and tell them not to. I told him you get the liner indoors and keep it warm and I'll call the credit card company.
I called the card company and was told if I drop contesting the charge that I can't bring it up again. It was recommended to not do it to instead wait until the liner was installed and then I was told it would also be good to have a signed written agreement between both parties. (I wasn't going to do what Mr. X wanted me to do -- (does he think I'm that stupid?), but I did want to honestly say I had held up my end and called them.)
Later last evening pb let me know that they were changing the day I had requested them come out. Their reason being: it might take them longer - they had gotten more hose to run to the pond but had also gotten some "containers" that would hold varying amounts of water, 500 to 1000 gallons, so they were hoping to reuse about 2000-3000 gallons of my water. Not wanting to seem unreasonable and hard to get along with I said ok.
This morning I put the finishing touches on the modified contract (many, many thanks here to Waste my mentor!! :bowdown: ) and took it to their place of business. The owner wasn't there but Mr. X was. (Sidenote: I had dealt with Mr. X prior. According to our original contract: "If any substantial defect occurs in the workmanship of the pool, it will be remedied without cost to the owner provided that written notice thereof is given the company within one (1) year after completion." When I took my written complaint in, Mr. X had signed it and made me a copy). I told Mr. X what the card company had told me. He got very upset that they would be taking money out of the account today. I presented him with the contract, he read it and said he couldn't sign it. I left the contract with him and just reminded him they were planning on being at my place this Monday morning.
When pb told me last night they'd be here at 8:00 AM Monday to get started he also told me to leave my gate unlocked and they'd come in and not bother me. I told him I'd be up and it wasn't a bother. I guess now I'll leave the gate locked and meet them there and see if they bring a signed copy of the contract with them.
OK, now it's input time, make your $.02 count . . . if they bring me a copy signed all is good, but what if they don't??
- Apr 8, 2007
- 1,616
- Pool Size
- 17450
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
First off, you should have someone, anyone - a friend, relative, neighbor, etc., present with you when they come. Don't face them alone - its much harder for them to bully someone with a witness.
Its clear that they are already in breach of the original contract and agreement for not completing the job correctly the first time and making a good faith effort to remedy the situation as soon as reasonably possible. Remember, most courts look upon contract language with an eye towards the consumer's protection and most disputes will be resolved using the "Reasonable Man" doctrine - that is "What would a reasonable man/person be expected to know and consider to be normal and average." That company is in the business of pool building and it IS reasonable to expect that they should know that a liner must be installed under specific conditions to be usable for the purpose in which it is intended. You should not have had to tell them that, they should know. The fact that they have suggested it be installed under inappropriate weather conditions for correct performance and installation tells us that they are not acting in good faith. If they do not sign the contract, I would not allow them to proceed or pay them.
I would however, make some type of determination with regard to the value for the work they have already completed and consider paying them that amount, minus any amount required to undo any damage the inappropriate installation caused and what it would cost to have it done correctly by another installer. Do NOT give them the original signed copy of the contract if they do sign it, a photocopy should be appropriate - its YOUR contract this time, not theirs - they are already in breach of theirs. Never forget that. A visit to a lawyer would be a good idea.
Its clear that they are already in breach of the original contract and agreement for not completing the job correctly the first time and making a good faith effort to remedy the situation as soon as reasonably possible. Remember, most courts look upon contract language with an eye towards the consumer's protection and most disputes will be resolved using the "Reasonable Man" doctrine - that is "What would a reasonable man/person be expected to know and consider to be normal and average." That company is in the business of pool building and it IS reasonable to expect that they should know that a liner must be installed under specific conditions to be usable for the purpose in which it is intended. You should not have had to tell them that, they should know. The fact that they have suggested it be installed under inappropriate weather conditions for correct performance and installation tells us that they are not acting in good faith. If they do not sign the contract, I would not allow them to proceed or pay them.
I would however, make some type of determination with regard to the value for the work they have already completed and consider paying them that amount, minus any amount required to undo any damage the inappropriate installation caused and what it would cost to have it done correctly by another installer. Do NOT give them the original signed copy of the contract if they do sign it, a photocopy should be appropriate - its YOUR contract this time, not theirs - they are already in breach of theirs. Never forget that. A visit to a lawyer would be a good idea.
See, that's what moderators do - they moderate the dealings between different folks (thanx NWMNMOM )
If they won't sign the modified contract, you are back to where you wanted to be -- a liner drop in the spring when the weather is more favorable.
Just write up a quick addendum to your new contract where they can sign saying that they won't sign the new contract.
If they won't sign the modified contract, at least get their signature on the bottom of your new one saying that they will not agree to THAT contract. This way you've made a reasonable attempt to deal with them and can prove it. Remind them that they have not acted in 'good faith' (as evidenced by their taking your payment and blowing you off on your improperly installed liner) Worst comes to worst, they'll either drop the new liner in the spring, like you originally wanted, or you get to take them to court and have a field day, and you can call the BBB and woof to them about this company :-D Please remember to mention the BBB and court option to them while trying to get them to sign the new contract. Also, DO have someone with you that's willing to testify in court on your behalf 8)
Hopefully, they will sign the contract and do what they should have done in the first place, if not... sue them for everything they own + .
Please keep us informed as to the results -- Ted
(thanx NWMNMOM )If they won't sign the modified contract, you are back to where you wanted to be -- a liner drop in the spring when the weather is more favorable.
Just write up a quick addendum to your new contract where they can sign saying that they won't sign the new contract.
If they won't sign the modified contract, at least get their signature on the bottom of your new one saying that they will not agree to THAT contract. This way you've made a reasonable attempt to deal with them and can prove it. Remind them that they have not acted in 'good faith' (as evidenced by their taking your payment and blowing you off on your improperly installed liner) Worst comes to worst, they'll either drop the new liner in the spring, like you originally wanted, or you get to take them to court and have a field day, and you can call the BBB and woof to them about this company :-D Please remember to mention the BBB and court option to them while trying to get them to sign the new contract. Also, DO have someone with you that's willing to testify in court on your behalf 8)
Hopefully, they will sign the contract and do what they should have done in the first place, if not... sue them for everything they own + .
Please keep us informed as to the results -- Ted
Thanks as always for the feedback! Getting someone here tomorrow morning could be a problem -- I live in a rural area, no neighbors or family close-- but it's a great idea and I'll definitely work on it today.
(Quote by nwmnmom: I would however, make some type of determination with regard to the value for the work they have already completed and consider paying them that amount, minus any amount required to undo any damage the inappropriate installation caused and what it would cost to have it done correctly by another installer).
I'm not really sure how to go about figuring a partial payment. I'm guessing a replacement liner (16x32) + labor + repairing sunken vermiculite would cost about the amount I am contesting ($2390). Or am I wrong?
Logical thinking is telling me: They don't have the $$ now and if they don't sign the contract and do the work they don't get the $$ -- so it seems they have to complete the work and make it right in order to get the $$-- so why am I worried?? -- because they have more experience at this than me? I was told by their sales rep when I was negotiating on the pool that they don't usually accept credit cards only checks/cash but they would let me (I figured I was just being told this in order to close the deal.) Now I'm not sure what to think. Maybe I was told the truth (hopefully) and this is the first time they've come up against this and are just regrouping and will (again hopefully and this time with fingers crossed!) come with signed contract?? I really hope so! I'm not a person who likes conflicts. I just want the job done right so I can pay them and everyone be happy.
I'll definitely add an addendum on the modified contract as suggested stating that they refused to sign (should it just say "when presented to contractor/company representative he refused to accept and sign this contract and then have a place for us both to sign?). I'll have 2 contracts ready, one w/addendum and one w/out (just in case they "forgot" to bring their signed one ) and give them a choice in the morning. I'll also take your other advice Waste and mention reporting them to the BBB and contacting a lawyer about legal measures available if they don't sign the contract agreement so we can proceed and get the work done (or if they won't sign the addendum either).
Thanks again for your good advice NWMNMOM and Waste. It is greatly appreciated! If there's more advice or any additional thoughts I welcome them!
(Quote by nwmnmom: I would however, make some type of determination with regard to the value for the work they have already completed and consider paying them that amount, minus any amount required to undo any damage the inappropriate installation caused and what it would cost to have it done correctly by another installer).
I'm not really sure how to go about figuring a partial payment. I'm guessing a replacement liner (16x32) + labor + repairing sunken vermiculite would cost about the amount I am contesting ($2390). Or am I wrong?
Logical thinking is telling me: They don't have the $$ now and if they don't sign the contract and do the work they don't get the $$ -- so it seems they have to complete the work and make it right in order to get the $$-- so why am I worried?? -- because they have more experience at this than me? I was told by their sales rep when I was negotiating on the pool that they don't usually accept credit cards only checks/cash but they would let me (I figured I was just being told this in order to close the deal.) Now I'm not sure what to think. Maybe I was told the truth (hopefully) and this is the first time they've come up against this and are just regrouping and will (again hopefully and this time with fingers crossed!) come with signed contract?? I really hope so! I'm not a person who likes conflicts. I just want the job done right so I can pay them and everyone be happy.
I'll definitely add an addendum on the modified contract as suggested stating that they refused to sign (should it just say "when presented to contractor/company representative he refused to accept and sign this contract and then have a place for us both to sign?). I'll have 2 contracts ready, one w/addendum and one w/out (just in case they "forgot" to bring their signed one
) and give them a choice in the morning. I'll also take your other advice Waste and mention reporting them to the BBB and contacting a lawyer about legal measures available if they don't sign the contract agreement so we can proceed and get the work done (or if they won't sign the addendum either). Thanks again for your good advice NWMNMOM and Waste. It is greatly appreciated! If there's more advice or any additional thoughts I welcome them!
The repair/replacement liner would surely cost more than $2390 if you had someone else do it. Around here that job could cost as much as double that, but prices are probably lower there. If you were still holding more money than the job was worth it would be a good idea to make a partial payment, but since that is not the case you don't need to worry about it.
Your leverage is that you might still pay them the final payment. They presumably need the money right now and will put out some effort to get it. If getting the money out of you looks too unlikely they may just give up, which is the risk. Along the way they may say all kinds of things, which you should pretty much ignore. The tricky part is deciding if you trust them to not make an even worse mess that will cost you even more to get fixed later. They haven't shown a great deal of competence so far.
I don't like to argue with contractors in the area of their supposed professional competence. Even when I am right, it mostly just makes them annoyed and they do an even worse job. Either they know how to put in the liner or they don't. Still, in this situation it does serve to put them on notice that you won't be bullied and that they won't get the money if they mess it up again, so there is some point to it.
Right now you want a finished pool and they want the money, so it looks like there are appropriate grounds for resolving the situation. If they take a little more care the second time it might well turn out just fine and everyone will be happy. But a few more screw ups and I would start thinking about getting rid of them and having someone else finish the job.
If you haven't already, take lots of photos of the incorrectly done liner, just in case.
Your leverage is that you might still pay them the final payment. They presumably need the money right now and will put out some effort to get it. If getting the money out of you looks too unlikely they may just give up, which is the risk. Along the way they may say all kinds of things, which you should pretty much ignore. The tricky part is deciding if you trust them to not make an even worse mess that will cost you even more to get fixed later. They haven't shown a great deal of competence so far.
I don't like to argue with contractors in the area of their supposed professional competence. Even when I am right, it mostly just makes them annoyed and they do an even worse job. Either they know how to put in the liner or they don't. Still, in this situation it does serve to put them on notice that you won't be bullied and that they won't get the money if they mess it up again, so there is some point to it.
Right now you want a finished pool and they want the money, so it looks like there are appropriate grounds for resolving the situation. If they take a little more care the second time it might well turn out just fine and everyone will be happy. But a few more screw ups and I would start thinking about getting rid of them and having someone else finish the job.
If you haven't already, take lots of photos of the incorrectly done liner, just in case.
Thanks for you comments and suggestions JasonLion. Pool sales rep recommended photos of where the plumbing and electrical are located for future owners in case I ever decided to sell. Since I'm a photographer they were interested in getting a CD/DVD of photos of the whole pool building process to show potential customers. So I have been taking photos from the very beginning of everything. :-D
The owner of the company is a jerk
but the guys that do most of the actual work are ok. I really think they can put in a liner properly under the right conditions. Mr. Jerk was just rushing them the first time around because it was the off season and he needed $$ even more than now (the other payments I made were ALOT larger) and he didn't care about rain forecasts, etc. The crew leader came by last week measuring for the hose and actually said they want to do it right because they don't want me to say anything bad about them. He also said every once in a while something happens and unfortunately this was one of those times and he was real sorry. (Yeah, I realize how naive I sound -- this is properly what you meant that they will say anything...) The other pbs in the area haven't been in business as long and also have "reputations" so I don't know who'd I get -- it's like choosing the lesser of two evils!
I'm really trying to stay positive and believe that all will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. This go around the weather conditions are more favorable and I've made it clear I'm not mad and don't have a problem paying them -- this is a large investment and I just want it done right. Boy! I just reread this post -- maybe I need to change my name to Pollyanna!
The owner of the company is a jerk
but the guys that do most of the actual work are ok. I really think they can put in a liner properly under the right conditions. Mr. Jerk was just rushing them the first time around because it was the off season and he needed $$ even more than now (the other payments I made were ALOT larger) and he didn't care about rain forecasts, etc. The crew leader came by last week measuring for the hose and actually said they want to do it right because they don't want me to say anything bad about them. He also said every once in a while something happens and unfortunately this was one of those times and he was real sorry. (Yeah, I realize how naive I sound -- this is properly what you meant that they will say anything...) The other pbs in the area haven't been in business as long and also have "reputations" so I don't know who'd I get -- it's like choosing the lesser of two evils!I'm really trying to stay positive and believe that all will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. This go around the weather conditions are more favorable and I've made it clear I'm not mad and don't have a problem paying them -- this is a large investment and I just want it done right. Boy! I just reread this post -- maybe I need to change my name to Pollyanna!
Oh yeah, JasonLion, I forgot to say I love your "Pool Calculator" it made BBB so easy for me this summer! Thank You!! :-D
Well, the little voice came back to me today about who I could ask over in the morning! I've been down the road this afternoon visiting with a retired couple that I've known since I moved here in '84. I told them the situation as of now (husband had stopped by on his tractor about 2 weeks ago so they already knew some of it) and invited them down for coffee in the morning around 8:00 if they happen to be up. They know the pb and know how he can be (in other words: don't have a good impression) -- I didn't pressure them for an answer just said if you want to come down you know you are more than welcome. They said they are retired without much on their schedule except their granddaughter in the afternoons. (You gotten know people in the country are different -- we live here for the privacy, but we still are close and like to know what is going on) I'm not counting on them but if they show up great, if not we still had a great visit catching up on all the other neighborhood happenings (regular gossip field day!) and there will be no bad feelings. I've moved stuff and am prepared for the work to be started in the morning. I feel as if I am as prepared as I can be. Thanks to all who have posted replies, I truly appreciate your advice and input. For those who have been reading -- I hope you learn from this! Good-night!
P.S. I will check in the morning for any last words of wisdom or support! Thanks, again!
Good-night!P.S. I will check in the morning for any last words of wisdom or support! Thanks, again!