How to handle a Pool Builder bully?

[Dee]

It's 9:00 AM Monday morning. My neighbors were here at 7:45 and just now left. The pb did not show up at 8:00 and hasn't called.

 

[Dee]

Guess what? The crew showed up around 9:30 so I called the neighbors and they came right back. The crewleader didn't have the signed agreement so I asked him if he'd sign one before they started working. He told me to let them pull the trucks in and get off the road, so I did. By that time the neighbors were back and we walked to the pool and I handed it to him and he signed!!!! :-D Turned out my neighbor knew him and told him he'd always thought about getting a pool and the wife chimed in and told him exactly where she'd always wanted it in their backyard (so hopefully this is a little more incentive to do an extra good job since he might sell another pool out of my deal).

So far so good! They are out there working (I've been taking pics) and all seems to be going well. They've filled up a bladder and 5 containers and they are pumping the rest of the water out. The weather is cooperating better than expected with temps in the low 70's for today and tomorow.

 

[Titanium]

Dee,

Congratulations on things starting to go your way. You had mentioned that you had taken a lot of pictures during your pool build - let's see them!

The only thing I am wondering is whether, if things took a nasty turn, the crewleader was actually authorized to sign any kind of contract on behalf of the pool company.

Good luck. And we need pictures.

Titanium

 

[coolpackard]

Mr. Jerk was just rushing them the first time around because it was the off season and he needed $$ even more than now (the other payments I made were ALOT larger) and he didn't care about rain........

What is up with these guys....? :x I heard the same Crud this weekend from my PB. Now him and his partner are most likely splitting up the business, one partner is spending too much..... Which explains why the delays through this project.....but the whole $$$ thing that they want to complete projects becuase it's the off season, etc....and they are in money trouble...I told my PB hire me part time to manage your business, we'll make millions!

 

[waste]

Dee, it's GREAT that they came out and are doing the work!! :-D -- And you have your modified contract signed!!

With the weather being so cooperative, you will probably get the liner done the way it should have been on try #1 :super: I hope everything continues to go in your favor but if you have any questions/ concerns, the folks on this site are here to help answer/ solve them 8)

Have a great Thanksgiving!

 

[Dee]

Hey guys! New liner is in and pool is refilled!

Titanium, I'll work on the pics (let me know what you want to see) and I'll be glad to show you. As to the crewleader signature holding up, it'd better because he does the majority of the work AND he's the pb's brother .

Coolpackard, I know in my case, even though it was their off-season I didn't get any kind of price break. I was just hoping they'd have more time to do a great job before they got real busy.

The water is kinda yucky right now - a couple of the containers were labelled:

The Solae Company
SOLEC - 3F-UB Premium
Standard Soy Lecithin Fluid
Food Grade

The water has an oily feeling and there are whiteish, yellowish chunks floating and settled in the bottom. The neighbors called my attention to the look of the water in the container when they first started this morning so I went over peered down in it and asked why does it look that way? So they emptied that container out (it looked like someone had upchucked). The other I'm not sure about since I walked the neighbors out.

One other container looked like something that a farmer might have hauled some type of chemical in and had attached to his tractor to spray his fields.

When you get a new liner installed do you usually get the start-up chems as part of the deal? I had ask for them in the contract because I'd gotten them the first time. They didn't bring the start-up chems with them. Do you need them using BBB? Right now I'm running the Barracuda to help clean up the yuck.

Several times I was asked if I was going to the store tomorrow for a water test (it kinda made me suspicious). They mentioned there might be copper in the water. I asked where would copper come from (I didn't have it before) -- the city water?? I was just told oh, you never know - it could be in the pipes (hard to believe they use copper pipes to pipe water). I figure they are just wanting to get me in the store to get my payment or they really do think something was in those containers. What do you guys think?

I'm happy the new liner is in, now I want to deal with the water issue. I'm know you guys won't let me down -- please give me some more of your great advice! Waste, a very special thanks, I wouldn't have gotten this far without you

 

[NWMNMom]

Yikes. What on earth did they put in your pool??? Did water go in your pool from those yucky containers?

 

[JasonLion]

You do almost always need some startup chemicals, though usually far fewer with BBB than other approaches. You need to get your water tested to get some idea of where you are now and what will need to be added. The alkalinity almost always needs some adjustment after filling and you almost always need CYA (stabilizer), though perhaps no CYA will be needed if you are closing for the winter soon. Since you have a vinyl liner you do *not* need calcium, though the pool store will probably try to sell you some. I suggest you get the water tested and tell us the numbers so we can make suggestions. Also, tell us if you are planning to close soon or will be keeping the pool open for more than a week or two.

Longer term you are going to want to have your own high quality test kit. I suggest getting one from TF Test Kits, see the link in my signature, but there are other good ones available as well.

Remember, you need to add chlorine at least once a day to start, evening is best. Right now you should probably shock the pool given that you have no idea what was in the water.

 

[Dee]

After a little research I think they got the containers from some type of food manufacturer and it's a type of oil/butter substitute. I guess they were thinking it would save me on sunscreen -- just dive in and get coated :?: Here's some pics of the stuff.

Today's plan is to take in a water sample and then take whatever chemicals they say I need since this is in our agreement. I'll come back and post the results and then with the advice I get here proceed to get the water straightened out! Right now I'm planning on not closing the pool, but this might change.

 

[JasonLion]

Ick!

I suggest using lots of chlorine. Hard to say exactly how much without knowing your CYA level. You might also want to use something like Natural Chemistry's Pool Perfect, or Pool Magic, both of which contain enzymes that will help break down the organics.

 

[EskimoPie]

Well if it's almost entirely new water then the CYA should be very low. That would make shocking fairly easy right? Would it be best to shock first and only add the other stuff (CYA, PH, ALK, etc) after?

 

[waste]

Eskimo, keen observation :!: With low cya, any bleach added will be able to do it's job more quickly, however it's more vulnerable to UV and may get burnt out by the sun before it can accomplish the job

What I would recommend to anyone filling their pool for the first time is to adjust the pH to be between 7.0 and 7.6 and add enough chlorine to get to 5 ppm. This is a good start and after a day, things like more chlorine can be added (trichlor pucks and calcium hypochlorite powder can be used in the beginning to help raise cya and calcium levels while providing sufficient cl to keep the pool sanitary) and then adjust the alkalinity and add cya to the level you want, all the while making sure that the pH is within range and the fc doesn't get too low.

In case anyone didn't see this coming -- A good test kit is required to take care of any pool! If you're guessing at what the chem levels are, you're fighting an uphill battle and any additions of chems may hurt more than they help

Dee, sorry they dumped 'soy lard' in your pool :x Those containers couldn't hold much water (compared to your pool volume) and they were using the hydrant to fill :? Anyway, what's done is done and just follow the advice here to get the pool the way it should be. Again, I'm so glad! that you got this taken care of without having to go to court (either to sue them or because you ended up shooting someone )!! Take care and I hope you have a 'trouble free pool' this winter and forever!

BTW - we still want to see some pics :-D

 

[Dee]

Here's the complete water test results:

Temperature: 65 (she said she just guessed)
Saturation Idx: -0.9
TDS: Not Tested
CYA: Not Tested
Tot. Chlorine: 0.5
Free Chlorine: 0.5
pH: 7.1
Tot. Alkalinity: 82
Adj. Total Alk.: 82
Tot. Hardness: 93
Optimizer+: 7
Copper: Not Tested ( to me "Not Tested" means NOT tested - but she said "oh, good! there's no copper :?: )
Iron: Not Tested
Manganese: No
Cloudy: None (pool is though :?: )
Staining: None
Quat: Not Tested
Green Algae: None
Black Algae: None
Mustard Algae: No
Slime/Mold: No
Filter Cleaned: 11/20/2007 (I haven't so I'm guessing she just plugged in today's date :?: )
Plaster<12: No
Spring Opening: No
Temp.<32: No
CD Sample: Not Tested
CD Standard: Not Tested
CD Test Typr: None
Tester: n/a

The printout recommended:
TA: add 22 lbs. Balance Pak 100
pH: add 0.5 lb(s) of Lo 'N Slo
Total Hardness: add 7.5 lb.(s) of Balance Pak 300
Add 2 bag(s) of Burn Out Extreme
Optimizer Plus: add 48 lb(s) of Optimzer Plus
Add 24 lb(s) of Lo 'N Slo
Use Strip Kwik or Kleen It to clean filter


What she gave me was:
6lbs. of Stablizer 100
12 lbs. of Balance Pak 100
32 oz. of Algae Control 60
4 lbs. of shock

And handwrote directions out:
1. add 6 lbs. stablizer let circulate
2. Wait 1 hour add 12 lbs. of BP 100 - let circulate
3. 1 quart algeacide - it will make the water wetter
4. late this afternoon 2 lbs. shock
Keep tab in skimmer (when I did this before when she told me my CYA went off the charts :!: )
About every month 1 lb. shock, 2 weeks after shock put 1 tab in skimmer

When I asked about not going by the printout she said the computer program really was just there to sale stuff and make them money. She said she'd worked there long enough to know what I really needed and if I added what it said my readings would then be too high especially the TA.

In fact she first just handwrote out the directions grabbed up the products and carried them out to my car -- talking a mile a minute about her family, Thanksgiving, etc. . . . I actually got in my car and drove down the street a little ways when I realized she didn't give me a printout. I went back and told I had forgot to get it -- that's when she told me the "sale stuff line" -- (but since I'm not paying for this part I don't care) -- I guess I should have insisted on all the stuff. Instead I just told her when we got the water right then I'd call my credit card company. I figured this might make her have second thoughts about the chems she gave me -- but she just said ok.

I haven't done anything but run the barracuda. It's having a hard time picking up the yuck (it clumps together on the bottom of the pool and looks like chicken fat but when you try to scoop it out it breaks up into little particles and floats around for awhile until it sticks together again -- I can see this stuff clogging arteries). I found if I keep it broke up the skimmer can get it (I put a knee-high panty hose inside my skimmer basket to collect the yuck).

My common sense tells me get the TF100 and then start from there. I'm not sure I have faith in the pool store and their water analysis and recommended treatment (since I got 2 different versions in one visit).

If this was your pool what would you do?

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

 

[JasonLion]

I don't remember seeing the size of your pool anywhere, so I can't give you quantities. You can use my Pool Calculator, see the link in my signature to figure out quantities, or put the volume of your pool in your signature and we can figure it out for you.

Your TA (total alkalinity) is fine at 82 unless you are going to use trichlor tablets for chlorine. When using bleach for chlorine TA should be between 70 and 90. When using trichlor TA should be closer to 120.

Your CYA (stabilizer) is no doubt low, but it would have been nice if she had tested it. I would add less than she recommended, perhaps half or 2/3 as much. It is much easier to raise CYA than it is to lower it, so you don't want to overshoot. It can take CYA up to a week to dissolve, so give it a week and then retest. Remember that if you add CYA to the skimmer you need to not backwash/clean the filter for a week. Some people like to put it in a sock and hang that near a return because of that.

Your CH (hardness) is fine.

You do need to bring the PH up a little, particularly as the CYA will lower it a little. I would use borax to raise the PH, but Balance Pak 200 would work also. Ideally you want PH between 7.4 and 7.6, though for right now I would keep it on the low side of that range to help the chlorine be more effective. I don't get why the store computer said to use Lo N Slo, which would lower the PH even more. Is there any chance you mistyped the PH, I see it as 7.1 in your post.

Burn Out Extreme is cal-hypo. That is a reasonable chlorine source for right now, but long term I recommend bleach (or a SWG). I very much doubt that you want to add two pounds of this at once until your CYA level comes up a bit. If your chlorine level gets too high when CYA is low it could cause problems. I would guess 1 lb in the evening today, 1 lb tomorrow evening, and 2 lbs the evening after (assuming you add the CYA today).

The algaecide is pretty much a waste of money except right when you close for the winter. Adding some probably won't hurt anything, but it won't help a great deal either.

And finally, getting you own test kit will make this all much much simpler.

 

[Dee]

Sorry, I added a profile when I first registered but evidently did something wrong ! In case it doesn't work this time my pool is:

IG vinyl 16'x32'
17,829 gallons
Sand Filter

So when the results from the store say "Not Tested" it means not tested-- so why didn't they test for copper since they were so concerned about it :?:

I haven't added any chemicals, but since the last post I have tested the CYA and it was 0, backwashed and cleaned the filter, cleaned the skimmer basket and changed the pantyhose, and order my FT100 .

 

[Dee]

Dang, it's been a long day - I hit "submit" instead of "preview".

I would rather go BBB all the way unless I do need to use some of the chems. Would you mind giving me a step 1, 2, 3. . of what I should do? Remember I'm a newbie and the first and only time my pool was filled the pool company did the testing and chemicals and knowing no better I did what they said and the CYA got way too high.

So, do I first add about 1/2 of the stabilizer (she told me to dissolve it in water and add) or add the borax for the pH (and it's not a misprint it does say 7.1). She didn't give me the Burn Out Extreme that was in the printout and was recommended. She gave me 4 lbs. shock.

I'm totally lost right now as to what to do first. Thanks for all the patience and guidance!

 

[JasonLion]

1) Run the pump 24/7 for the next several days. This will help clean up your water. When the water is substantially improved you can switch to a much shorter pump run time. The exact pump run time depends on your system, but given the cold water it can very likely be fairly short, I would try 6 hours a day once the water has improved and see how that works.

2) Get started on the CYA: Add 4 lbs of stabilizer. There are two ways to add it, either add it to the skimmer and don't backwash/clean the filter for a week, or put it into a sock or a knee high stocking and either hang it in front of a return or put in a skimmer (so long as it doesn't block the skimmer to badly). It is nearly impossible to pre-dissolve CYA, so don't bother trying. This should be done as soon as reasonably possible. Wait a week and then test the CYA level. You are aiming for a CYA level of between 30 and 50.

3) Raise FC up to 5 each evening. For the first two days add either 1 1/2 gallons of 6% bleach or 1 lb of shock. This should be done in the evening tonight and tomorrow. By the third day you need to start testing the FC level before adding more chlorine. By then there will probably be enough CYA that FC doesn't go to zero each day, so less chlorine will be required. Bleach can be added by pouring slowly in front of a return. Shock should be pre-dissolved and then poured slowly in front of a return.

4) Raise the PH. Add 3 lbs of borax (20 Mule Team Borax is available in most large grocery stores and places like Target and WalMart in the laundry detergent section) or if you have some Balance Pack 200 add 1 1/2 lbs of that instead. Either one should be pre-dissolved and poured into a skimmer. This can wait a day or two, though sooner is better. Longer term, aim for a PH of between 7.4 and 7.6.

 

[Dee]

Thanks so much for the outline.

I'll keep the pump running today and tomorrow, backwash again, and start the plan Friday just in case I need to empty some water due to the rain (forecasted 50% chance for today & tomorrow). They actually overfilled pool a little since they knew I was going to need to do some backwashing .

I've included sone pics of what my yard looked like before and after.

Thanks again to everyone :bowdown: -- I feel like I'm on my way finally to my Trouble Free Pool :super:

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! :-D

 

[ktdave]

I am wondering if I need to build something around the pump and filter since it's sitting out in the open -- any comments? suggestions?

At minimum you might want to put a coat of UV protective paint on the PVC pipes to protect them from sunlight.

BTW. Nice looking pool!

 

[DLSDO]

Anyone have any idea why the PB added that organic stuff to Dee's pool.."Soy lecithin"? Never seen or heard of such a thing. Any thoughts?

Dee,
I have enjoyed following this thread. Your pool is very nice and I am glad they got everything worked out!