New Member - Chlorine block-high CYA

[Ed Armstrong]

Hi Folks,
I'm a new member and hoping for some help, I don"t know where to turn at this point. I have a 1 year old (second season), 24000 Gal., vinyl liner salt water pool (Hayward Goldline SWG), cartridge filter in the Boston area. In the last two weeks of experiences, I feel that pool chemistry has to be the most inexact science there is. Here's why-

Opened two weeks ago, clear water, proper water level, some debris, Leslie's tests show among other things low salt, 300 phosphates reading, no chlorine or CYA. Leslie's says because of the cartridge filter, no powered conditioner because will clog cartridges, liquid only (Natural Chemistry Instant Conditioner- $38/bottle w tax). They recommend two bottles of liquid shock, 3 gals instant conditioner, add salt, and 5 oz SeaKlear. I add two bottles shock, 3 Gals. CYA/conditioner, 5 oz sea-Klear phosphate remover, and salt.

Three days later return to Leslies, salt ok (3400), no chlorine, CYA at 30, phosphates good, they happily sell me 5 more gals of instant conditioner and one pouch of granular shock (Chlor-Brite). I add.

Two days later return to Leslies, still no chlorine, still 30 CYA, they say need more CYA and the SWG must be broken, advise me to call Hayward warranty for service call on salt cell. I leave angry and dumbfounded. I call Hayward, they say CYA must be at 60-80 ppm (80 is ideal) for their salt cell to make adequate salt for pool. I inspect/clean cell, looks fine, diagnostic tests show it producing chlorine ok.

I immediately go to another Leslies nearby with another sample for giggles. Totally different results, but still suggesting more instant conditioner. I then call instant conditioner maker Natural Chemistry, very courteous, say that the CYA tests at Leslies are wrong, their calculations have me over 100, say do not add more. I buy my own test kit, no chlorine, CYA over 100.

I'm done with Leslie's, I go to Pool and Patio yesterday for a retest, no chlorine, well over 100 CYA. They suggest I have a chlorine block problem and -

lower-replace 1/3 pool water (doing it now) to bring CYA below 100

4 - 1 lb pouches cal hypo shock

Then

retest chlorine tommorrow after 24 hrs., if still low or none, double it, add 8 pouches shock, test again after 24 hrs. If still low use 16 pouches of shock until I can break the chlorine block.

I just hung up with TF test kit people, very nice folks, I ordered my own test kit, TF-100. They strongly recommended your sight, so here I am. I sure would appreciate some good advice folks, much appreciated. Just don't know where to go at this point.

Thanks again,

Ed
Boston South Shore

 

[Richard320]

I just hung up with TF test kit people, very nice folks, I ordered my own test kit, TF-100. They strongly recommended your sight, so here I am. I sure would appreciate some good advice folks, much appreciated. Just don't know where to go at this point.

Thanks again,

Ed
Boston South Shore

Where to go? Pool School!

 

[JohnT]

Welcome to TFP Ed!

The draining water and replacing it is the right course. Unfortunately you've learned the hard way that the people you expect to be experts (pool store clerks) are often totally clueless. Read Pool School like Richard suggested above and get a feel for our philosophy. We are all about understanding your water and the chemicals you add to it. That way you don't get into situations that aren't easy to correct.

I promise you after one season with us, your pool will look better, cost less to operate and take less effort to maintain than it ever has.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Read Pool School as Richard suggested especially the part about balance for an swg. Add a small jug of bleach each evening and wait on your test kit to get there. Once it's there and you know for sure what your CYA is we can help get this thing under control for you. More importantly, you'll be able to keep it under control.

 

[Ed Armstrong]

Thnak you all already, starting to fell a little better about this thing. Yep, lesson learned from Leslie's pools for sure, never again. I forgot to say, water is still clear, with slight chlorine smell. By buddies' test kit last night (TF 100) showed CYA over 100, estimated at about 120-130. Lowered water this am about 9-10 inches now, starting to refill. If shocking is concurred with, can you suggest what kind and how much/how often?? I bought a case of ther 1 lb pouches of cal hypo, obviously can return if needed.
Thanks again!!!!
Ed

 

[JohnT]

Thnak you all already, starting to fell a little better about this thing. Yep, lesson learned from Leslie's pools for sure, never again. I forgot to say, water is still clear, with slight chlorine smell. By buddies' test kit last night (TF 100) showed CYA over 100, estimated at about 120-130. Lowered water this am about 9-10 inches now, starting to refill. If shocking is concurred with, can you suggest what kind and how much/how often?? I bought a case of ther 1 lb pouches of cal hypo, obviously can return if needed.
Thanks again!!!!
Ed

If your Calcium hardness is fairly low, the Cal-hypo is a good choice. Otherwise bleach or liquid shock, depending on which is cheaper in your area.

 

[dattia]

I wouldn't use anything but liquid chlorine at this point. The pool got out of balance by adding things it didn't need. The tremendous amount of CYA in there means you have to use an abnormally high amount of chlorine to sanitize the pool. Everyone here uses liquid chlorine/bleach to shock as it is actually a process despite some products being named "Shock". Pool school will teach you everything you need to know about the process here and it will give you a good understanding of your pool. When your new Test Kit comes, you will be armed with the knowledge and the tools to get it right from here on in.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Did you run a full set of tests while you had that kit? If so post them.

Your shock level is going to be in the neighborhood of 40 ppm. You can use the Pool Calc to figure how much you need to add to get you there, though I'd wait till I got the CYA down to begin shocking because it's going to take a lot of chlorine to keep it that high.

 

[Ed Armstrong]

Hi again folks,

Just to recap, after two weeks of no FC, (cant hold it), and Leslie's selling me 7 1/2 gals of liquid CYA which I dumped in. Thursday night's Pool & Patio analysis results showed no FC, about 140+ CYA, 250 hardness, 7.8 PH, ALK 110, salt at 3300. Told to lower then replenish pool to bring CYA down, and then add 4 lb pouches cal hypo to begin shock process. I then joined the forum.

Update, during Friday, 6/10, I lowered the pool about 25%, about 9 inches, and then refilled it Fri night. I probably got ahead of myself, but then -
at about 1100 Fri pm I then added 4 1-lb pouches of cal - hypo 65% FC, diluted 2 lbs at a time in a 5 gal bucket, poured it in and brushed it all in, and ran the filter all night. At about 1100 am Sat am, water cloudy in deep end, using my buddies Taylor kit I checked CYA and CH, CYA still about 125 ppm (est), chlorine 6 on Taylor kit, about 9 on my lower end kit.??? I then lowered the pool again all Sat through about midnight about 11 inches, then refilled throughout the night til this morning.

Running filter all day I just checked readings on the Taylor kit from buddy. Water still cloudy in deep end, clear else where, no greenish tinge anywhere, no algae visible. If I'm testing coirrectly, and I believe I am, I got the following:

FC - 4 - 5
TC - 2 (don't understand)
PH - 7.8-7.9
Alk - 90-100
Cal Hard - 410 - 420 ????

My kit - shows
FC - 9 (color est), much darker than highest 3 color block
PH - 8 est

I repeated these tests with similar results. I don't understand the discrepancy in FC results, the boost in hardness (250 to 410), and TC less than FC.

I've run the filter all day, just shut it down, and am now staying put until I hear from you guys. I don't understand how the 4 lbs of Cal Hypo could have raised it so much. The deep end is still cloudy, water is clear aside from that, no greenish tinge, appears to be WELL chlorinated/saturated, still brushing chlorine deposits as they settle, but again, what do I know For future shocking, I also just purchased 12 gals of liquid shock 12.5% in lieu of the Cal-hypo since my hardness has apparently jumped??

Again, whatever help you can offer is greatly appreciated. My own TH-100 kit is expected within a couple days. No more Leslie's testing.

Thanks again
Ed :| :| :|

 

[JasonLion]

You could really do with a better test kit TC can't be lower than FC. That is happening because the test you are using can't handle this situation. My guess is that your FC level is fairly high, and CC is also high, causing TC to be higher than the test can handle. I recommend getting a test kit with a FAS-DPD chlorine test, which can handle this kind of thing easily. The best one is the TF100 from TFTestKits.Net. The Taylor K-2006 is also good.

You are making a lot of progress. You need more chlorine to get rid of the CC. It seems likely that you need to replace more water as well, though that isn't as obvious.

 

[dmanb2b]

I'll just say welcome to TFP. Getting the TF100 was the best investment yet

Dave should have it out to you very quickly. Unfortunately the water will continue to be cloudy, unless you maintain the water at shock level. Shock level is very dependent on your CYA level as out lined in this chart

Shock is a process and is described here

The key to a successful and efficient shock is accurate testing (TF100/K2006) and keeping FC at shock level...right now you are just guessing and if CYA is still at 80+, FC of 6,9 or even 15 won't do much ...but at least it will keep thing under control, until your kit arrives.

It will take a few days but we'll get this pool clear for you

Liquid chlorine in 5gal carboys will help or 6% unscented bleach will do just fine as well. Great Value Bleach at wally's 1.42gals at $2.54 a piece is a decent price for chlorine, just not as convenient as the 5gal carboys .

 

[Ed Armstrong]

Thanks Jason, my new TF-100 is due in Tuesday according to UPS tracking. The kit my buddy loaned me is a large Taylor kit, with about 15 different vials, though a few years old. AS a result, maybe the FC reading is off a bit since mine puts it at about 9 colorwise, as well as the jump in hardness from 250 to 410 from just 4 lbs of 65% Cal-hypo?? Maybe those readings are a bit suspect.

I can't believe I forgot this in my previous message, but my recent CYA shows 80 or so, finally.

What do you suggest now going forward now that the CYA is apparently, hopefully, more in line after lowering and replenishing to where it should be to make CH from the SWG at 80 ppm???

 

[JasonLion]

on getting the CYA level down!

Yes, your readings are a little suspect. CH would not have gone up that much from the cal-hypo you added, and you appear to be using a DPD chlorine test, which has problems at higher FC levels.

As before, I'm guessing that the FC at 9 is at least close to true and the TC level is reading lower because it is actually higher and the test has a known problem when you go much over 10. That suggests that CC is well above zero and you need more chlorine. It is a couple of steps of being uncertain, but the best I can guess from the information you have right now.

 

[Ed Armstrong]

Thanks Guys,

I'll hold on til the TF-100 arrives tromorow, Tuesday, and retest with some accurate readings, then repost and see what you folks think from there.

Thanks again
Ed--

 

[Ed Armstrong]

Hi Folks,

My new TF-100 just arrived from Dave, and I've completed 4 cycles of emptying and replenishing with fresh water over the last few days. Latest results are as follows:
FC-5.5
CC-0
TC-5.5
Alk - 100-110
Cal Hard. - 300-310
CYA- 80-90
PH - 7.9
BR- 10
Smaller kit puts CH at 5 also

CYA tough test, at 90, barely visible, at 80 disappears.
Water a little cloudy in deep end, otherwise looks fine.

I'm ready for instruction as I was told last week by "pool people" at Leslies and Pool and Patio that I had a chlorine block in addition to CYA of about 150, so I began emptying and refilling and then was advised to get a good test kit and join you folks and seek some reliable help. I have both Cal-hyp at 65% in 1 lb pouches and liquid at 12.5 %.

Thanks so much.

Looking forward to getting this thing back into alignment with your help. Thanks again.

Ed

 

[JasonLion]

From your description, your CYA level is 80. You go to the point where the black dot completely disappears, no hint it was ever there even after you stare at it for a couple of seconds.

You don't need to list the BR level, that is bromine, which you are not using.

Your PH is a little high. You should lower that to around 7.4 to 7.5.

How does the water look now? Also, is the FC level staying reasonably stable or is it falling rapidly?

 

[Ed Armstrong]

Hi Jason,

Yes, thats how the CYA test went. The water looks good, and is clearer than yesterday, almost totaly clear.

If you see from my posts Jason, I added (probably prematurely) 4 lbs of 65% cal hypo last Friday evening after dropping the level and replenishing the first time, but I was not able to retest the CYA at that time as I didn't get my buddy's older taylor kit until Saturday. As you pointed out yesterday or Sunday in your reply to me, my buddy's kit was suspect for chlorine, so I'm not too sure how accurate any of those readings were. I will say this that my own cheapy test kit, from Friday to tonight has consistently produced a constant CH test color that was so dark, I'd estimate it was about a 9, and is still there tonight. Now, my new test kit tonight is reading 5.5, so I'm fairly confident based on that, that it may have held fairly steady at about a 5.5 since last Friday, but of course I can't be sure. My CYA remained high throughout the weekend which was why I emptied and relenished three more trimes until my CYA came down to where it is tonight, about 80.

I really wanted to wait and use the new TF-100 from Dave to get some trustworthy , accurate tests readings and that's what I did earlier tonight. Should I wait to see how much the CH drops over the next day or so and test with the accurate TF-100 and then post or what would you recommend for tonight?? It has been cloudy/overcast here for the last 3-4 days, so not much sunshine.

Continued Thanks!
Ed

 

[JasonLion]

The best test is to do an overnight FC loss test, see this article in pool school. Given that your water is clear and FC level is plausible, it probably isn't essential, but it is a good way to prove that there isn't any algae. You will always lose some chlorine during the day. With CYA that high you won't lose that much chlorine, but always some. But at night you shouldn't lose any chlorine.

With CYA around 80, your day to day target FC level is around 6 to 10, and never below 6. So you should raise FC a little this evening. My guess is that you can raise FC to around 8 and it will be comfortably above 6 tomorrow evening.

 

[Ed Armstrong]

I'm thinking Jason it's probably best to wait another day or so now that I have new, reliable testing kit for up to date data. So. I'm thinking I'll do another FC test tomorrow and post the readings from there to see what you recommend. If you agree with this, should I test tomorrow morning or evening and then post results?

I still feel this thing will require shocking as my original problem the last two weeks that I could nbot keep any chlorine in the pool and that it was "blocked", (or so I was told by Leslie's?pool & Patio), but again, I can't be sure of much at this point based on the terrible advice Leslie's gave me to continue adding all the instant conditioner, and then the repeated draining and replenishing of water these last 4 days.

What do you think?

Ed

 

[dmanb2b]

With CYA at 80-90 your chlorine is not "blocked", just maintain the FC level around 6-10ppm and if CC is 0 and the water is clear, you should be good to go. The over night FC loss test Jason pointed you to will rule out any organics