Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Pump Dead :( What should I replace it with????

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    291

    Pump Dead :( What should I replace it with????

    My Hayward 1.5hp 220v Super-II Pump just shorted out. Don't think it worth replaceing the motor. What should I replace it with - another Hayward Super-II or is there something "better"???
    20x40 IG vinyl, heatpump and solar and 3 siberian huskies, 10kw PV solar electric system. Nikon Photographer D800e dSLR.

  2. Back To Top    #2

    In the Industry
    duraleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Sebring, Florida
    Posts
    28,407
    I think if my old pump bit the dust, I would look hard at the intelliflo. Pricey but the idea behind it makes sense to me.

    Secondly, if you stay with a single speed pump, I bet a 1hp would do an effective job for you and perhaps match your filter a little better. How many GPM is your filter capable of?
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    291
    Not sure of filter size, it is the biggest Hayward DE filter - it holds something like 7.5 pounds of DE per charge.
    20x40 IG vinyl, heatpump and solar and 3 siberian huskies, 10kw PV solar electric system. Nikon Photographer D800e dSLR.

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    441
    Good timing on this topic. I have a 1996 vintage (at least according to the Magnetek motor date code) Leslie Hydramax II filter pump, which I have been told by Hayward is a re-branded Hayward Super II pump, with a shorted motor. [Long story, but in the process of installing the AquaLogic control system and turning off the upstream 30 Amp breaker for safety, the 30 Amp breaker malfunctioned when it was turned on and only delivered 120 Volts instead of 240 Volts to the filter pump. I didn't notice the abnormally low voltage until 30-45 minutes had passed and the motor had gotten really hot. After replacing the defective 30 Amp upstream breaker, now my local 15 Amp breaker to the filter pump trips immediately when the filter pump is switched on. Since I am only measuring 0.8 ohms of resistance looking in to the two motor leads, it appears that my filter pump motor has experienced insulation failure and is now shorted internally.]

    I was planning on replacing the motor or pump/motor combo next season, so it just appears that the time table has been slightly accelerated.

    My pool/spa combo is asking the existing 2 HP filter pump to do quite a few different things:
    1. normal pool/spa circulation
    2. run second story solar system when appropriate
    3. run spa jets when appropriate

    My preliminary calculations seem to show that the 2 HP filter pump is probably oversized for items 1 and 2, and is really only necessary for item 3, so either a 2-speed motor or an adjustable speed drive on a single-speed motor appears to be indicated.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on why I should not keep the existing Super II pump and just replace the motor? Are there any compelling reasons to replace the pump also?

    Thanks for any help.

    Titanium
    24,000 gallon inground freeform pool/spa circa 1983 (113 ft perimeter, 625 sq ft) with 350 gallon attached spill-over spa
    2007 2 HP, three-phase Hayward TriStar pump which is powered by an Ikeric VS-200 variable speed drive system
    1983 Laars XE Pool/Spa Heater Type ES 400,000 BTU, 1998 Hayward Super Star-Clear C-4000 cartridge filter (400 sq ft, 4 separate cartridges)
    1998 Polaris 380 pressure-side cleaner w/ 3/4 HP booster pump
    One skimmer :( and one PoolSkim :), One Supervision Galaxy LED pool lamp, Second story solar panels
    Hayward/GoldLine AquaLogic PS4 (replaced 1983 vintage dual circuit Intermatic timer)

  5. Back To Top    #5
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,887
    Generally a two speed, or variable speed, pump will cost more to start, but save you money in the long run. In areas with high electrical costs it can save you a lot of money. The most extreme example of this are the IntelliFlo/Pro pumps, which can run at very low speeds, using very little electricity but are very expensive to install. The next step down would include some of the Pentair WhisperFlo pumps, which use special high efficency motors to move more water per watt than most other similar pumps.

    Keep in mind that your existing electrical service may or may not work with all pumps. The IntelliFlo/Pro pumps require 30 Amps at 220-240 Volts, which not everyone will have available at their equipment pad without some often expensive electrical work. Similarly, getting a pump that exactly matches the physical configuration of you existing pump will minimize how much plumbing you need to do. For most people, this usually means replacing a pump with a very similar pump. Often you can find a two speed pump to replace an existing single speed pump that will work with the same electrical service and plumbing configuration.

    The ideal behind getting a two speed pump is that when running on low speed they move about 1/2 as much water but use between 1/4 and 1/3 as much electricty. Thus, you run them twice as long to move the same amount of water while using between 1/2 and 2/3 as much total electricity. You also have the option of turning them on high to vacuum the pool or to operate spa jets, or for other special situations.

    If the pump is in good condition, it is usually simplest and least expensive to replace only the motor. In this case you need to get a motor of the same HP as the original motor so it matches the existing impeller in the pump. Note that a two speed motor will work just fine as long as its high speed HP is the same as the original motors HP (and it is physically compatible).
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    441
    JasonLion,

    Thanks for your reply.

    So other pumps out there, assuming equal motor efficiencies, are not significantly more efficient than the existing Hayward Super II pump?

    Thanks!

    Titanium
    24,000 gallon inground freeform pool/spa circa 1983 (113 ft perimeter, 625 sq ft) with 350 gallon attached spill-over spa
    2007 2 HP, three-phase Hayward TriStar pump which is powered by an Ikeric VS-200 variable speed drive system
    1983 Laars XE Pool/Spa Heater Type ES 400,000 BTU, 1998 Hayward Super Star-Clear C-4000 cartridge filter (400 sq ft, 4 separate cartridges)
    1998 Polaris 380 pressure-side cleaner w/ 3/4 HP booster pump
    One skimmer :( and one PoolSkim :), One Supervision Galaxy LED pool lamp, Second story solar panels
    Hayward/GoldLine AquaLogic PS4 (replaced 1983 vintage dual circuit Intermatic timer)

  7. Back To Top    #7
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,887
    Modern pumps and motors are fairly well optimized and reasonably similar to each other. The differences are mostly in the area of how easy it is to get the pump basket lid on and off and how big the basket is. The big gains in efficiency come from using the right size for the job. Many many pools are built with way too large a pump, and even when you have a situation that needs a large pump, like spa jets often do, you don't need a large pump all of the time, ie a small pump will run the filter and circulation and you only need the large one when the spa is actually in use.

    The Pentair WhisperFlo series includes some "high performance energy efficient" models that use about 25% less electricity to do the job than most other pumps (and cost a little more to start). And then there are the fully variable speed pumps, like the IntelliFlo and Ikeric, that have some inherent energy efficiency advantages, in addition to their variable speed feature, due to using a fundamentally different design (related to using three phase power internally synthesized by the variable speed controller, or something equivalent). There exist some more conventional three phase pumps that have the same design efficiency but they require three phase power, which is hardly ever available (typically not possible to get in residential areas, and in areas where it is available it can be quite expensive to have installed if you don't already have it in the building).
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    441
    JasonLion,

    Thanks for your reply again.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the WhisperFlo "costing a little more to start". Are you referring to the higher initial capital cost? Or are you referring to the WhisperFlo costing more to start from an electrical utility perspective? If you are saying the later, I'm pretty sure that would not be the case.

    I have an electrical engineering background, so I think I understand what you are saying is that single-phase motors are inherently less efficient than three-phase motors. And I have learned (or relearned, as the case may be) that single-phase motors, except for a couple of exceptions, are not really able to h ave their speed controlled by an adjustable speed drive.

    Three-phase motors, however, ARE able to have their speed controlled by an adjustable speed drive. And many of the adjustable speed drives on the market now are able to take in single-phase power, like you would have at a residence, and the drive outputs three-phase power suitable for a three-phase motor. In many ways, a three-phase motor is a much simpler creature than the single-phase motors in use on pools.

    I will probably spend a little time in the morning checking into whether it is more cost-effective to buy a 2-speed 230 Volt 2 HP motor with a NEMA 56J frame, or whether it would be less expensive (or at least equal in cost, since the flexibility would be greater) of finding a three-phase motor 2 HP motor with the necessary NEMA 56J frame AND a low-cost drive which can accept a single-phase input and produce a three-phase output. Unfortunately, time is somewhat of the essence if I want to avoid a pool swamp.

    Thanks for your help. Please keep up the useful information. I have learned a lot from you and this site.

    Titanium
    24,000 gallon inground freeform pool/spa circa 1983 (113 ft perimeter, 625 sq ft) with 350 gallon attached spill-over spa
    2007 2 HP, three-phase Hayward TriStar pump which is powered by an Ikeric VS-200 variable speed drive system
    1983 Laars XE Pool/Spa Heater Type ES 400,000 BTU, 1998 Hayward Super Star-Clear C-4000 cartridge filter (400 sq ft, 4 separate cartridges)
    1998 Polaris 380 pressure-side cleaner w/ 3/4 HP booster pump
    One skimmer :( and one PoolSkim :), One Supervision Galaxy LED pool lamp, Second story solar panels
    Hayward/GoldLine AquaLogic PS4 (replaced 1983 vintage dual circuit Intermatic timer)

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    441
    http://factorymation.info/acdrives/fm50brochure.pdf

    Here is a link to some low-cost motor drives. Wow, I had not realized that prices had fallen so much.

    For example, the TECO/Westinghouse adjustable speed motor drive FM50-202-C is only $145 with an input voltage of either single or three phase 230 Volts and an output of 230 Volt three-phase at 7.5 Amps (which is enough amps to run a 2 HP three-phase motor).

    Now onto find low-cost 2 HP, three-phase motors with a 56J Frame....

    Titanium
    24,000 gallon inground freeform pool/spa circa 1983 (113 ft perimeter, 625 sq ft) with 350 gallon attached spill-over spa
    2007 2 HP, three-phase Hayward TriStar pump which is powered by an Ikeric VS-200 variable speed drive system
    1983 Laars XE Pool/Spa Heater Type ES 400,000 BTU, 1998 Hayward Super Star-Clear C-4000 cartridge filter (400 sq ft, 4 separate cartridges)
    1998 Polaris 380 pressure-side cleaner w/ 3/4 HP booster pump
    One skimmer :( and one PoolSkim :), One Supervision Galaxy LED pool lamp, Second story solar panels
    Hayward/GoldLine AquaLogic PS4 (replaced 1983 vintage dual circuit Intermatic timer)

  10. Back To Top    #10
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,887
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium
    I'm not sure what you mean by the WhisperFlo "costing a little more to start".
    I just meant that they cost a little more to purchase. Electrical usage is lower at all times.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •