Going BBB - need some help

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jaydar

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Mar 30, 2011
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Hi...first this might be long so I apologize.I had a pool installed in 2005 here in Southwest Fl.I was never quite sure how many gallons it held.I had thought 13000 but now I think it's between 8500 and 9000 gal.
Anyway the first summer everything went great.2nd summer I had some algae issues.Pool store gal had me using yellow out and yellow treat.There was some success but I always had to keep on top of it.
Last year aroung early march I began to get the streaking spotches of yellowish,brownish and black....all over the pool floor.Pool lady had me buy a case of dichlor granual ilb packages.I added this and pool becaome cloudy and murky.Then she said more chlorine.None of this worked.I decided on my own that this must be a black algae and not mustard...so I got a copper algaecide.....and thast seemed to clear things up.

I came across bbb here so I decided to try it.withing a day after adding 4 boxes off 20 muleteam borax...the water is crystal clear( this is end of last season)The water sparkled....but my chlorine was unreadably high....my ph was holding steady at 8.4.Still had faint streaking stains on the floor.

It's a spraycrete pool with pebbletech plaster....and it remained this way.

I ran pool pump several hours a day during winter and occassionaly added a jug of chlorine.It stayed clear all winter.

This spring the water reach 78 early....1st week of march.So I got my teast kit out and my free and combined chlorine was still off the chart high....the color was dark amber.

I just went to a pool shop that had a computer testing....found out my cya was 100....I know it was way higher because of all the dichlor and I use trichlor pucks in a floater.I had dumped a gal of muriatic acid in the night before and it did bring ph down to 7....and my calcium hardness was 480.

So i rented a sump pumpand drained about half the water and refilled yesterday.While the water was low I got in there with a ss wire brush and tried to brush the streaks of the floor.some of them did brush away but there is still a lot.

Anyway.....I added 2.5 gal of liquid chlorine last night....I put 1 gal of muriatic in this morning about 1 hour after adding a box of borax.

I waiting a few hours before retesting.

Am I on the right track here? I was so amazed at how clear the water was even though the chemistry of chlorine and ph were off.So I decided tostart out fresh doing bbb.
Should I add cyanuric....or continue with the pucks....or do away with the pucks entirely?

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

topic split - MITS
 
Welcome to TFP!

The first thing you need are reliable test results, preferably from your own test kit, but a pool store will do for now. Doing a partial drain was probably a good idea, given how much dichlor and trichlor you used. The TF-100 and K2006 are both good test kits with all the tests you need; both are available from TF-testkits (see the link in my sig).

I assume the water looks OK now? Please post some test results, order a good kit if you don't already have one, and we can give you more specific help.
 
Good advice so far. Read 'Pool School' link on the upper right corner of the webpage. You'll learn that you need to get a good test kit that will allow you to accurately report CYA, free chlorine and chloramines, and so on. Use one of the pool volume calculators on the web to estimate your pool volume, so you can use the available programs here to estimate the amount of various chemicals that you'll need to add during the process of balancing the chemistry in your pool.

Once you learn the basic principles, and resist the temptation to buy fancy-sounding chemicals from pool stores, it's really easy. Plus there are experts here to help if things do get complex.

As for what to do now, you really can't tell until you get an accurate CYA reading. You may have plenty of CYA even after the partial drain and refill. Get the chlorine and CYA in line, make sure the pH isn't way out of whack, then tackle the rest.

Welcome to TFP

Kelly
 
You've come to the right place - take a deep breath. Spend some time in the pool school. Read, re-read, let it sink in. Re-read. Etc

A good quality test kit and knowing how to use it is the foundation of everything.

With a good test kit and some consistency there is absolutely no reason why you can't run this pool sparkling clear for $20 a month or so. No algecides, no Yellow out, no magic. Just chlorine and consistency.

So a few things :

1 gallon of Muriatic in a 9000 gal pool is a lot. You should check your PH to make sure it's somewhere within reason.

The borax is not what is killing the algae. Chlorine is the sanitizer and the relationship between CYA and Chlorine is key. If your CYA is 100 then your shock value on FC is way high - 40ppm. When there is algae growing in the pool it can overwhelm your FC and get out of control. This is all that is happening.

With any luck you've brought your CYA down to 50 or so. So you want to bring the ph to about 7 - 7.2, FC up to 20ppm and keep it there, testing and adding chlorine as often as is practical. Keep the pump running, scrub the walls to break up the algae. Eventually you'll stop loosing FC so fast, your water will turn clear and you can do and overnight chlorine loss test to see if your done.

It'll take a little time and will require a FAS-DPD chlorine test to do properly.
 
When the pool is fully re-filled get another CYA test done. It may still have a significant amount of CYA in the water, since the test does not accurately read over 100 ppm. Don't be surprised if it is still high.
 
Hi all,

The reason my pool capacity is unknown is...#1 the builder never told me#2 My depth demensions are odd.The water table here is about 6' below ground level in dry season.They wanted to install a 5' deep end....I insisted on at least 6'.That's what they gave me.I have 3 10" tread steps in the shallow end and once there the depth is 36".
From that point on it gets deep to 6' very quickly.It's an L shaped pool that is 24' on the long side ad 18' on the L side which has a swim out ad about 9' for the L is at 5'.the width of both sides of the L are 9'.
So I am confused on how to properly calculate gallons.Also the inside corner of the L is at a 40 degree angle of 5 '.

Are you confused yet?...I am.....anyway I rented a submersible sump pump and drained pool until it was halfway..about 3' below the deep end coping.

I then refilled the pool.

After taking advice given here I order the TF100 test kit with the OTO chlorine...and borate test strips since I am gooing with BBB method.

I superchlorinated with a 2.5 gal jug of pool chlorine...12.5 %......added 1 gal of muriatic acid...and about 140 oz of twenty muleteam borax and 4 cup of baking soda.

The water is crystal clear....never lost sight of the drains in the 3 days since I did this.I just got the TF-100 Kit with OTO and borate test strips today....so ofcourse I had to use them.

My Free chlorine is 17.5 ppm...Combined Chlorine is 0,Borates at about 25ppm...I'm looking to aise it to 50ppm,
alkalinity is at 80 ppm...right where I want it....but my CYA is at 100ppm...and I'm hoping for closer to 50ppm.
So according to the pool calculator I need to bump 41% of the water.

I just dumped and refilled 4160 gallons calculated by using a sump pump rated for 52 gals a minute for 80 minutes.
I'm guessing my pool vulume is between 9000 and 9500 gals.

I don't know....but am not happy about eeding to dump anothe 4000 gallons...especially when picnh a penny computerized test showed my cya at 100 ppm....and it's still 100 ppm after dumping 4k gallons and replacing it.

Anyway...thank you for the tips and turning me on to such a good water chem test kit.....but I'm wondering whether or not it is worth it to rent the sump pump againg and dump another 50% of my pool water,especially when is is so clear.
 
Oh...I forgot to add that ph tested at 7.2....and I seem to have better luck keeping algae at bay when around 7.8-8.0.
Not sure why but pool is in direct sun all day and no pool cage here in south Florida...maybe that is why Ihave better luck with higher ph
 
Most of the common CYA tests read CYA levels over 100 as if they are 100.

You can get a fairly good estimate of the number of gallons by dividing the pool up into two rectangles, guessing at an average depth for each, plugging each one into the volume calculator in the Pool Calculator and adding up the two sections. It won't be exact, but it will be close enough for now.
 
I think you need some more time in Pool School to get some of the relationships down better. Take your time with it - it'll come.

A Couple things :

You're adding a lot of Chems all at the same time and in pretty large quantities. For example - adding acid and borax and baking soda all at the same time just cancels out. And again - a gallon of Acid in 9000 gallons of water is a bit much. Since your PH test bottoms out 7.2 you could be a bit lower. This can be destructive to your plaster finish. Can you post a CH number?

There's not really a relationship between PH, the Sun and your algae issues. All your pool needs to combat algae is Chlorine. CYA protects Chlorine from the sun - but too much CYA also makes Chlorine less effective to the algae. Hence the problems you've had in the past.

PH, CH and TA have a relationship (CSI) in determining how your pool water reacts to your plaster. A low CSI will dissolve your plaster, and a high CSI will deposit calcium scale.

If you post a pic of your pool I think we can work out the Gallons based on the dimensions provided.
 

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zea3 said:
When the pool is fully re-filled get another CYA test done. It may still have a significant amount of CYA in the water, since the test does not accurately read over 100 ppm. Don't be surprised if it is still high.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry you missed this post earlier. After the next refill, test the CYA before you test anything else. A pool that tests out at 100ppm could actually have 200ppm, 300ppm, or more of CYA. I had to do a series of about 5 partial drains to bring my CYA down to 50 over the previous 2 years. Once you get a reading below 100 you can decide if you need to drain further or if you can live with it for a while.
 
Hi....I'm looking at the computer print out from pincha penny pool store.
It list as follows:

Total Chlorine 5.0ppm ideal level 2-4 ppm..I know that my water was off the chart high in both free and total chlorine when I brought the sample in.I had already tested it with last years taylor fas-dpd test kit...and again with a brand new fas-dpd test kits..( I though last years kit had expired reagents)

So I'm thinking maybe...we can't trust a pools store to accurately the water...and maybe there isn't really an accurate kit for pool owners either
Free Chlorine 5.0 ppm ideal level 2-4 ppm
Combined Chlorine 0.0 ppm ideal level 0.0-0.0
PH 7.0 ideal level 7.4-7.6 ppm
Acid demand 0
Total Alkalinity 100 ppm ideal 80-120 ppm
calcium hardness 460 ppm ideal level 250-400ppm
Stabilizer(Cyanuric Acid) 100ppm ideal level 40-100ppm
Total dissolved soldids 2100ppm ideal level 300-3000
Salt...not applicable
Borates are now 30ppm vs 25ppm yesterday...haven't added any more borax or any chemical and won't until I figure out if I should drain half my pool again.

What I'm wondering is if there is any accurate CYA test.I purchases the TF 100 test kit.I'm still showing cyanuric acid at 100ppm.....after I had drained half the pool because of pinch a penny water test.
I haven't added any stabilized chlorine or any stabilizer.How can I still be at 100ppm cya?

My Ph is about 7.3 now...Free chlorine is 16.5 ppm today...down 1 ppm from yesterday.Combined chlorine is 0..so I'm happy with that.
Alkalinity is still at 80 ppm.

My only concern os the CYA still testing at 100 ppm...and my ph being 7.3 when I prefer it to be around 7.8ppm.

I'm just not sure if I should do another draining of 50% of the water as recommended by the pool calculator.
 
The tF100 test kit is as accurate as you need for a residential pool. Typically the pool store tests are much much less reliable.

FC - the FC is going to come down on it's own. You'll want to maintain that based on the CYA/Chlorine chart in Pool School. Disregard the Ideal Range 2 - 4. This is wrong as it does not account for CYA.

CYA - A pool store CYA test is never accurate over 100ppm. So your initial CYA was probably much higher than 100 - perhaps 200. Try doing the TF-100 CYA test again with 50/50 pool water and tap water. If a 50/50 mix comes out as 50ppm CYA you'll at least know your current reading of 100 is accurate.

If you are opposed to draining more water you could use rain water to dilute. You'll have to stay on top of the chlorine though - if it drops way down with a high CYA then algae will take hold.

Absolutely ALL of the algae problems you have had with your pool are related to having extremely high CYA and a low chlorine count.

PH - this will come up on it's own.

TA, CH, Borates, Salt, etc. dont worry about these for now. They are fine.

Do an overnight chlorine loss test tonight and post. Test FC tonight after dark and first thing tomorrow. If you loose more than 1ppm chlorine over night you may still have an algae issue even though you can't see it.
 
CYA is difficult to test accurately when the level is above 100ppm. It is not unheard of for pools to have CYA levels in excess of 300ppm following years of trichlor/dichlor use. I have copied the following post by Duraleigh froma thread with a similar problem. The part I want you to focus on is in red.

duraleigh said:
First, welcome to the forum!!

Secondly, the dilution method you used was close but not quite correct. Use 1/4 tap water, 1/4 pool water and 1/2 reagent.

Nevertheless, it seems pretty obvious your CYA is really high so here's how you can drain it more quickly.

If you can get a drain hose down to the bottom of your deep end and start a siphon, simple start filling your pool from the surface of the shallow end. The siphon will drain 100+CYA pool water from the opposite end of the pool as you refill with 0 CYA water from the other.

This will also help reduce your CH as well which is testing very high. It may be helpful to get confirmation of your numbers from a pool store, but if they differ widely, the chances afre your numbers are correct.

Keep us posted.
Click to expand...

If you test with the dilution method and still get 100, that means the level is 200 or more. Does the dot disappear way before you fill to the 100 mark on the tube? That is another indicator of very high CYA. If you look at the marks on the tube you will notice that as the number gets higher the marks are closer together. If you want you can post a picture of your CYA test and we can help determine how high the CYA is. A profile shot showing how high the solution is on the tube where you no longer see it would be great.
Are you using the test kit with the powder to test your chlorine levels? It sound like the pool store is using a test that tops out at 5 for FC.
 
Hi,
Yes the TF100 test kit provides a chlorine drop test that uses a powder and some reagents.You use that when the chlorine is too highfor the basic taylor chlorine test to read.I've even tried using the basic chlorine test by mixing 50% pool water with 50% distilled water...mixing and pouring into test tube and after adding reagent is was still to high.So the chlorine drop test seems to be very accurate for high cl levels and helps you find your combined chlorines too.

I just drained another 6000 gallons today and am refilling.I've tried calculating the capacity severl ways....and I am now pretty certain the pool is 9000gals give or take.

I will wait until it is full which may or may not be tonight....and will add about 1 gal of 12% liquid chlorine at night.
Then I will test the next morning for chlorine,ph and alkalinity.Then when I know these numbers I will go to the pool calculator to see how much borax,baking soda,muriatic and cyanuric acid I should add.

I go slow with the borax and baking soda.I'll add the borax in 1/4 increments to calculator suggestion, wait a few hours and test again and maybe add muriatic.....wait a bit longer and put partial dose of baking soda.
In the meantime I'll go buy some cyanuric acid.Just not sure if I should have alkalinity and ph where I want them before adding cya.

I have another question to ask.

I don't have a salt water chlorine generator and don't plan to get one.....but I'd like to add a substantial amount of salt to the water.Would that be harmful?
 
Jaydar, Please read my notations in red within your post.

jaydar said:
Hi,
Yes the TF100 test kit provides a chlorine drop test that uses a powder and some reagents.You use that when the chlorine is too highfor the basic taylor chlorine test to read.I've even tried using the basic chlorine test by mixing 50% pool water with 50% distilled water...mixing and pouring into test tube and after adding reagent is was still to high.So the chlorine drop test seems to be very accurate for high cl levels and helps you find your combined chlorines too. You seem to have confused the directions for testing FC and testing CYA. What test kit are you using now?

I just drained another 6000 gallons today and am refilling.I've tried calculating the capacity severl ways....and I am now pretty certain the pool is 9000gals give or take.

I will wait until it is full which may or may not be tonight....and will add about 1 gal of 12% liquid chlorine at night.
Then I will test the next morning for chlorine,ph and alkalinity.Then when I know these numbers I will go to the pool calculator to see how much borax,baking soda,muriatic and cyanuric acid I should add. You have been draining the pool to lower your CYA (cyanuric acid). Do not add CYA until you have tested for it again. Your actual level may have started at 300 or more, but it will only read as 100 on the vial. Until the CYA begins to read 90 or less you will not have an accurate CYA test result.

I go slow with the borax and baking soda.I'll add the borax in 1/4 increments to calculator suggestion, wait a few hours and test again and maybe add muriatic.....wait a bit longer and put partial dose of baking soda.
In the meantime I'll go buy some cyanuric acid.Just not sure if I should have alkalinity and ph where I want them before adding cya. Once again, please test the CYA first, don't even add bleach yet.

I have another question to ask.

I don't have a salt water chlorine generator and don't plan to get one.....but I'd like to add a substantial amount of salt to the water.Would that be harmful?
Click to expand...

There is a thread on TFP that address how to add salt to a non-SWCG pool. After you are finished draining/refilling we can discuss it more.
 
No....not confusing the two.I have already done the cya test as soon as I got the kit.It was still reading 100ppm...so in other words...there is no reliable test for cya if it is 100ppm or more.
That'swhy I'm not even concerned about cya levels at this point because in the last ten days I'v done a 4000k drains and refill and now today a 6000k drain and refill.I'd be purty dayam po'd if I test cya levels when it's full and it isn't close to zero now.

Oh I intend to test cya i the morning....but I must add chlorine as soon as possible.I live in southwest florida....the days are already reaching high80s and my pool after first drain and refill reached 82 in just 2 days.Algae blooms real quick here...not to mention all of the pollens in the air.
I promise to be careful...but I just can't allow any algae to get a head start.Wehave problems with mustard and black algae here and once it's established....you can lose your mind and months of pool use trying to get rid of them.

Hereis the instruction for the TF100 chlorine drop test.

1) there is a graduated cylinder for the chlorine test only(it's labeled)...it goes up to 40 ml.You fill with pool water to 10 ml..next you put a very tiny heaping scoop(provided in kit) of a powder marked R-870....you swirl to mix...and the solution will turn pink.
Then you take a liquid reagent marked R-871 and add a drop at at time...swirling to mix..until solution turns clear....you multiply the number of drops x .5 (inother words just cut the number of drops in half and you have you ppm free chlorine.
Next you test for combined chloromines...using the same water that you've turned clear....you add 5 drops of reagent R-0003...if it remains clear..you have no chloromines...if it turns back to pink
you add a drop a ta time of R-0871 and swirl each time to mix...when the solution turns clear again you multiply the number of drops by .05.....or simply divide the number of drops used in half and you have you ppm of combined chloromines.
So you then combine the ppm of the first test for free chlorine and add the ppm of combined chloromines and that will give you your total chlorine.
Ideally it should remain almost exactly as the ppm of your free chlorine test.
 
Ok lets back up here a bit. Please post a full set of test results as they stand right now.
pH
FC
CC
TA
CH
CYA

Your CYA could certainly have been well over 100 ppm.
If you'll slow down a bit and give us the info asked for we can help you figure all this out. We can even help figure out an approximate size for your pool with the chemical additions.

Please don't take this the wrong way because I'm only trying to help, but I think you'll get better answers if you'll keep your comments short and to the point. I know it's my problem, but when I see a person asked for a chem level and then see the reply is a half a page long I tend to skim over it and after a few I'll move on because I'm trying to help as many people as possible. As I said, please don't take it the wrong as I know that some people are verbose by nature and sometimes we need a dissertation as to what's going on.
 
I can't test results yet as pool is still filling and it might not be full by midnight at this rate.It filled a lot quicker the first time I drained it last week...but then I drained about 2000 more gallons than last week....it took about 5 hours then....it's already been 6 hours filling today and I still have about 2 feet to go.

Anyway...just for chits and grins I decided to test the tap water with my fas-dpd......Free chlorine is 3ppm right from the hose and ph is somewhere above 8.2.....unbelievable...or not.

Anyway I drained to below the pool light niche.......and some grayish sandy like sludgecollected on the pool floor right underneath it.I'm not sure if this is something to worry about...I'm kind of sure this haywood pool niche is supposed to be water cooled and I replaced the lamp 2 summers ago with a colorsplash led,while it was under water.Put a new gasket on it and tighten the screws as much as I dared to.
I must say....the color effects are nice....just wish the lights were a bit brighter on some modes.

I've been in the pool with the light on and haven't been zapped....so it must be ok.
 
Water can collect behind the light fixture in normal use. The inside of the fixture is sealed, but there is some room between the fixture and the back of the niche it is placed in. Most likely what you saw was the water draining out from behind.
 

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