DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes - In Ground, Vinyl Lined, Perimeter Wet Edge

[AlanH]

NOTE: It's been three years since my original postings outlining our plans for a swimming pool. The pool is finished and since we now have an internet link at home I can upload photos and captions of the build. Posts 1 through 19 are from three years ago that set the ball rolling. The build posts start at #20. I'll be adding photos and captions in blocks of 5 (max permitted?) as time permits. The information available on TFP has been very helpful in completing the project. Thanks to all.

New Design:



Original Post from 3 years ago.

Luckily, I came across this forum late last year. My wife and I had made the decision to install a pool but we put on the brakes as the information we were getting from builders simply didn't correspond (to a worrisome degree) with the wealth of information and advice on this site. Having made it through a busy Christmas and New Year holiday season we are starting up again, this time as a DIY project.

We live in (have retired to) Nicaragua (from Canada) and as such the resources (materials, products, trades, services, processes) common in the US and Canada are either not available or come at a considerably higher cost. A pool in Nicaragua is considered an extreme luxury and builders charge accordingly--thus our DIY effort. Although familiar (and hands-on) with construction in general (houses, boats, rain water cisterns), this is the first time for a pool and I would welcome your comments, ideas and suggestions along the way.

As important as work is in Nicaragua, there is always time for friends, family and fiesta. Although it was right for us to leave the hustle and bustle of our lives behind, it is with a certain envy that I read about (some) pools being layed out day 1, dug day 2, steel/pluming installed day 3 (maybe 4), and gunited by the end of the week - mas o menos. In Nicaragua, things get done "poco a poco" (little by little). I'm looking at an 8-12 month build, hopefully. Hang in with me, we'll get there.

My apologies for the length of this initial post. Getting the shell built is going to be my single biggest challenge mostly due to the limited resources I have to work with. Rather than have members make suggestions along paths not possible I thought it best to lay out a few key boundaries for this build. Comments, suggestions and ideas welcome at any point. If in reading through any of this and a detail has been covered in another post that you know about, please direct me to that post if it's more convenient.

A few details about the pool:

T-shaped 12x32x5 with a the T stub being 10x10x1.5; approx 16,500 gal. For: water games, swim some laps, a shallow lounging area. The depth would slope down from both ends of the T (approx. 4.5 ft) to a center depth of 5.5 ft. A canopy over the T's stub to allow use in the rather brutal mid-day sun. A key feature is a total perimeter wet edge (always one for jumping into the deep end first, so to speak).

Given the resources available in this part of the planet, the best construction options available to me (i.e. known at the moment) are:
1) cement block - mortared with re-bar and concrete in the cavities; covered with a regular cementitious parging (other suggestions for a parging/primary waterproofing particularly welcome here); with either a tile finish (glass, vitreous, porcelain) or vinyl liner (parging/waterproofing not necessary?).
2) cement block - dry stacked with concrete in the cavities; covered with a surface bonding (fibrated) cement; with either a tile finish (glass, vitreous, porcelain) or vinyl liner.
3) ferrocement - with either a tile finish (glass, vitreous, porcelain) or vinyl liner. pool250 has a great thread running on this construction method.

Gunite, shotcrete, poured concrete walls (floor OK) and fiberglass are not an option, economically and in terms of available skills. Plaster finishes as well as the Pebble-Tec type finishes are not an option either.

I've seen duraleigh's thread (http://www.troublefreepool.com/an-unusual-pool-build-t10597.html) corresponding to option 1, with a vinyl liner. Thanks to all who contributed and a very workable solution for my build, except for the not so itty-bitty detail of the wet edge (see below). Also, an issue that I'm facing is that although most "masons" can parge (repello) very well, they can't butter and set a block (or brick) to save their lives. There is an incredible waste of mortar and most of it ends up at the bottom of the cavity so that when a concrete in-fill is added, it beds on a crumbly, popcorn base of old mortar at the bottom of the cavity and with all sorts of blobs squishing out from the joints between blocks in the cavity column (making for a very poor and "cold" wall/floor joint). Now that I think of it, I suppose the bottom row of blocks could have clean-outs (like besser blocks -pdf link, possible slow download http://www.adbrimasonry.com.au/lib/pdf/Brochure/mf1113.pdf) and except for the wastage (which could be recycled on the fly) may make for a more workable approach.

Option 2 seems very interesting. Dry stacking is very well suited to DIYers and with a surface bonding cement parging apparently, from what I've read, provides a considerably stronger wall than mortared block construction. It also gets around the problem of sloppy mortar joints mentioned for option 1, above. If anyone has experience with or can comment on this type of construction I'd love to hear from you.

Likewise, pool250's build (http://www.troublefreepool.com/my-self-build-ferrocement-pool-t28358.html) has great potential for my build as well, especially if I can confirm that the "ferro-panel" that I used in the construction of my house is also suitable for pool construction. I'm checking that out on several fronts now but other comments/suggestions from members would be most welcome too.

The not so itty-bitty detail:

I'd really like to do a full perimeter wet edge pool. For two reasons: 1) the aesthetics; 2) keeping it clean. The latter is perhaps the most important. Wind, blowing dust and dirt, leaves, pollen, seeds, flower petals, bugs are an issue 365 days a year. The winds are particularly strong at the time of year that trees and plants are shedding and then again blooming. Without exception, every pool I have seen has a problem with debris swirling around in back eddies (and sinking to the bottom) on the leeward side of pool walls regardless of where skimmers are placed. My thought is that with a perimeter wet edge there is nothing for debris to get hung up on. Furthermore, by placing the returns in the bottom of the pool so that incoming water wells up and flows over the edges, the accumulation of debris could be further reduced.(if I'm wrong on this please let me know). I have also read that returns on the bottom circulate the water better in terms of keeping the water temperature warmer. Interestingly, between the cooling effects of evaporation and chilly nights, pools in the tropics can be uncomfortably cool for a lot of people. Although I have browsed through the material in "Pool School" and "Hydraulics 101" and have a sense of where I'm going, comments and suggestions on the hydraulics of this build would be greatly appreciated. (or is this perhaps better suited in the "Pumping Station" forum?)

The attached plan (using Sketchup) is just a conceptual drawing and a general idea of what the pool will look like. The freewall edge is not meant to be a cascade, and maybe not even a wet wall; instead having a gutter much like the rest of the perimeter (I have some ideas about gutters, but others are welcome). The walls are curved because I was anticipating the use of a ferrocement-like construction and curved/arched surfaces contribute greatly to strength (eg. Hoover Dam). This would probably be helpful with cement block as well.

Regarding vinyl liners--can they be attached below the surface? Vinyl liner pools that have fiberglass swimouts and steps cut into the sides, are the liners attached underwater along the edge of the cutout? I also came across a reference (and am trying to find out more) about a Tommy Johnson of Johnson Pool and Spa (Huntsville, AL?) building a perimeter wet edge vinyl lined pool. Are there any issues/problems/tips that I should be aware of using liners in this configuration, if they can be used at all?

Thanks for dropping by.

 

[PoolGuyNJ]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

"A key feature is a total perimeter wet edge (always one for jumping into the deep end first, so to speak"

A 108' wet edge is going to need a lot of water to run and a LOT of skill to build. I would not try this with your first build, Thats the perimeter and also means 108' of free standing walls. A space between the deck and the pool will be open, a major trip hazard.

"Gunite, shotcrete, poured concrete walls (floor OK) and fiberglass are not an option, economically and in terms of available skills. Plaster finishes as well as the Pebble-Tec type finishes are not an option either."

You're looking at 12" thick concrete walls with a lot of reinforcing steel rod, # 3 and #4 sized. That concrete needs to be shot from a gunite or shotcrete nozzle . The edge will need to be within a 1/16" or the edge will need even more water to work. Expect 1.5 to 2 gallons per minute. Your evaporation rate will be very substantial. You will need an auto-fill, which, with a negative edge pool, the more common name for a design of this type, should be electronic.

Block won't have the strength you need, filled or not. Poured concrete won't have the compressive strength the walls need or the velocity needed to ensure there are no voids.

Given these challenges, IMHO, your dream pool, as a DIY project is perhaps a bit more than you can chew.

Scott

 

[solarboy]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

If I was in your situation, I would build with the 20cm wide filled block with re-bar on the vertical and horizontal (2 x 10mm bar horizontal, 2 x 10mm on the vertical on 20cm centers). Within this wall I would have concrete pillars every 3 meters, 20x20cm with 4x 12mm steel rebar on the vertical, held together with 6mm thick square rings (15x15cm) every 20cm. I would also have a top beam in the same construction running along the top of the walls.
I would then render this with short fibres in the mortar (4/1 sand cement mix) and fibreglass mesh in the corners overlapping 30cm. I would add some type of waterproofing additive to the mortar.
The floor I would do 20cm thick class C25 concrete with a double mesh, 1 10cm above the other, the mesh being 10mm steel on 15cm centers in both directions. The 2 meshes should be offset from each other horizontally in both direction 7,5cm.
The wall vertical re-bar should tie into the floor by about 50cm.
I would also have large fillets in the corners, and would glass tile for extra waterproofing.
I wouldn't have such a large overflow edge.

 

[pool250]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

I'm no expert, but speaking as another diy'er, building in a remote location on a budget, I would keep it all, ie every aspect, as simple as absolutely possible.
As has been said, a wet edge is complicated to build and your water loss from evaporation will be a lot.
Also a 32ft pool plus T section is a relatively big pool. What I have learnt with pool building is that for every little bit larger the pool gets, the more the expense of materials, labour time, equipment and running costs multiplies; and quite considerably so.
So my other bit of advice would be if you are on a budget, is to build a smaller pool. The difference between sticking to your dream pool and building a smaller, simpler pool may mean difference between having a pool and not.

If I was in your situation and I could possibly afford it, I would look for a pool builder who could build a smaller, simpler pool in the way he or she knew how and could show you some of their work and some happy customers. Whilst some builders down there might see $$$ at the mere mention of the word pool, you only need to find one who dosen't.
(in my case there simply are no pool builders at any price for hundreds of miles, so even if I could afford it, it's not an option for me).

So I would say your undoubted talents and energies at research would be better spent hunting for a builder rather than a technique.
Best of luck with it.

PS: you could start perhaps, with finding out who built the pools on these pages if any of them are a reasonably near:
http://www.realtornicaragua.com/propert ... category=6
http://www.rockypointnicaragua.com/floorplans.html
http://www.c21nicabeachfront.com/pages/ ... m_216.html
http://www.granpacifica.com/nicaragua/n ... estate.htm

 

[AlanH]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

Thanks solarboy. Encouraging comments. What you are saying is familiar as it is very similar to the concrete work in the foundation and retaining walls upon which my house was built (except for the rendering details). And thanks for the post on your build and comments in pool250's post on tiling. I'm finding those very helpful.

With respect to PoolGuy's reply, I don't really understand the comment about "108 ft of free standing walls". The only free standing wall is the curved wall across from the T's stub. All other walls/pool edges are flush with the deck and would be supported under the deck with back-fill. As I have mentioned, the displayed model is only a concept drawing to get things started. If, indeed, the one apparent free standing wall has to be beefed up that can be done. I'd probably use quarried stone blocks (6"x16"x24")--aesthetically nice, locally available, fairly inexpensive, and can be set/stacked to whatever "engineered" specification is appropriate.

The spillover gap around the perimeter, based on plans and photos I've seen to date, is about 1 to 1.5". The negative edge, the gap and the deck are generally flush, as will be the case in my build (yes, there are exceptions in some pools). So I don't see a tripping hazard. As for the tolerance for the edge being level, I see that as a finishing detail and not a show stopper. Pool builders have solved this problem using a variety of impermeable capping material to crown the negative edge (fine aggregate concrete w/additives, terrazzo, marble, granite, various plastics epoxy bonded, even good old Bondo, or a variation). It helps to set it right in the first place but all such materials can be ground down and polished to remove any variances.

The reason I started this post was to tap into forum member's knowledge and experience to solicit creative/innovative ways I can use the materials that I do have (think out of the box) given I don't have access to the materials and processes commonly available in the US.

 

[AlanH]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

Thanks pool250. Scaling things down, rethinking the wet/negative edge, all are options. I've checked out realtors, property managers, hotels, resorts and residential pools known to me. There is a fairly small handful of builders available and many of the hotels and resorts bring in crews and materials from outside of Nicaragua only to pack them off when finished. My experience to date is that nobody has unreserved recommendations about any particular builder and quite often where one homeowner may be happy with his pool, another owner has experienced nothing but problems with the same builder, and generally there are more unhappy owners than happy.

Also, although not as remote as you, bringing in a builder means setting up a construction camp for the duration of the build, adding housing, board and off-time transportation costs to the equation. That aside, it's not so much a question of budget as of finding a good, reputable builder. You're right, I only need to find one, and will keep looking--up to a point. The DIY option is still my strongest at the moment. As challenging and bumpy a ride as it may be, I'm looking forward to it.

 

[pool250]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

I'm looking at an 8-12 month build, hopefully. Hang in with me, we'll get there.

There are some difficulties with taking that long. With an excavated pool area, the sides will either tend to cave in and/or constantly wash down at the first sign of rain. I imagine that in your part of the world when it rains it does so pretty hard. Once the pool is watertight but you are still working on the inside, say a long tile job, the pool will fill with rainwater. Plus, an excavation which has no ground water in the summer, may fill with water in the winter.
Unless there is no way of avoiding it, you really want to have that pool excavated, built and filled between late spring and early autumn and/or whenever you dont have rains in your part of the world.
The other issue is that you need to consider that your backyard will look like veritable war zone for a long time .

 

[Lershac]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

Go for it man. But have your eyes open that this will be a difficult, but not impossible build. Methodical, patient, work, tear-down and re-work will eventually get you what you want. You sound like you are thinking alot about it before jumping in, which is good, but the length of the build and the work required will mean that your perseverance will be the dominating factor. Having engaged in long-term major DIY projects myself, I have learned that its all possible, but be prepared for when your first effort does not work out, and you have to take remedial steps (tearing some down and redoing it). The mental stress is considerable, and you should be aware that everything takes longer than you think when you are doing it yourself, as life, wife, and family interfere with your schedule!

Good luck

 

[solarboy]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

Pool250 has a point regarding the water. I'd invest in a cheap "sludge pump" to keep water pumped out and put boards all the way around the bottom. It would be good to get the floor done quite quickly too.

 

[PoolGuyNJ]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

A negative edge needs a basin large enough to be able to hold enough water to raise the pool's water level at least one inch so the water will spill over the edge on a continuous basis without drawing air. This wasn't mentioned. The shallow and narrow gutter offers an interesting idea to lead to it but it will need need a way to get the water to the pit. The 1" to 1.5" gutter will likely overflow or allow water to escape by splash out and if any debris get in, create more challenges. It needs to be larger, both in depth and width. Now it becomes a trip hazard. Overcome that and you might have a great idea.

Stacked stone has great strength when carrying a load from above. Alas, the load will be a horizontal one. Using more stones will require a significant footer to spread the weight or settlement in the rainy season will cause major problems. It also means the bond beam won't be contiguous, another serious loss of rigidity.

I think pool250 hit the nail on the head when he suggested keeping it simple. Heaven forbid the negative edge wall fails catastrophically when someone is in the pool. The rush of lost water could carry that person or people to sharp edges, exposed rebar, etc..., and hurt someone. While a worst case, it isn't that far a reach and it's in an area where the medical community is doing the same "making do with what they have" idea that the pool was built with.

Scott

 

[JasonLion]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

The rim drain can be placed underneath a cantilevered deck, which solves the trip problem. The other way I have seen it done is to cover the drain channel with a grating that lets water through and can be walked on, though that tends to not let enough debris through. Anything along these lines will need a large surge tank to hold the surplus water when the pump is off or the pool is full of people.

Getting the edge level is tricky. I've seen experienced builders in the US get that wrong. It has to be level not only when it is built but also years latter, which means digging down a fair distance and then putting in a substantial foundation that won't shift over time.

 

[solarboy]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

Is this what you mean Jason. We built this a few years back, it has a full overflow all around covered by a white plastic grill that is quite hard to see due to glare. The glass mosaic tiles roll over to meet the grill. It worked quite well with a 3000 litre (800 gallons) overflow tank and a 3HP pump. The only issue we had was noisy gurgling as we only had 1x 3.5" tube going to the compensation tank.

 

[Stevereno]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

I have no expertise to offer here, all I can say is that this will be a really, really interesting build to follow. Looking forward to the discussion and progress pictures.

 

[AlanH]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

"The rim drain can be placed underneath a cantilevered deck" - Jason, do you have a sketch or picture easily available?

Yup, learned about rain the hard way many years ago when a flash storm arrived several months ahead of rainy season and collapsed an earth bank into the form work of a ground beam that was to poured the next day. We had to tear it all out and start over (que PITA).

I've attached one link that shows the concept of the negative edge I have in mind fairly well (attached as a link because I don't want to infringe on copyright by cutting and posting just the photo).
http://www.poolspanews.com/2007/071/071danieli.html

Apologies, I didn't explain the guttering system very well before. It's a narrow slot in the deck that passes through to a more voluminous tube/gutter/channel below the deck's surface. I've included a Sketchup model (below) of two versions of such a guttering system. Again, at very conceptual level, as there are a number of variations that allow for considerable freedom in placing the slots and tubes in relation to the pool wall and deck surface. The slots are generally 1"-1.5" wide, can be continuous or segmented, and may have some sort of screen/grill to keep "big" things out. The tubes would slope to the corners (or otherwise) to clean-outs accessible from the deck surface. This would also make it easier to run a snake/"pig" (a ball or plug a bit smaller than the diameter of the tubing) through to clean out anything that is really blocking things up. (A large version of which was used to clean out the sewers of Paris--hate to even think about that work detail). I suspect the clean-out can also be a pre-filter if it is used as a feed to the pools circulation/surge tank system. A generally common element is to slope the deck from a point of about 3 feet out from the slot ever so slightly down into it. This allows any splash/serious overflow (or most of it) to flow back into the tube.

 

[SCEADU]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

Here is a Perimeter overflow that we did a couple of years ago. The catch basin can become the Surge tank but you have to figure the percentage of how much bigger the main pool is over the catch basin so you get it deep enough to handle the surge.

 

[JasonLion]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

Is this what you mean Jason.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant for the grating over a drain style.

I'm not much good with drawing, but here is an attempt to show what I mean about a drain under a cantilever deck:[attachment=0:hh3bejhn]rim-drain.gif[/attachment:hh3bejhn]
You tend to find things along these lines on older public pools. It isn't very common in modern construction.

 

[solarboy]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

Here is a Perimeter overflow that we did a couple of years ago. The catch basin can become the Surge tank but you have to figure the percentage of how much bigger the main pool is over the catch basin so you get it deep enough to handle the surge.

That is one beautiful pool.

 

[SCEADU]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

[.[/quote]That is one beautiful pool.[/quote]


Thank you. Not my design but the company I represent built it a few years ago.

 

[AlanH]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes

SCEADU - Thanks for the photos. Beautiful pool. If it doesn't violate any non-disclosure agreement you may have about the design and construction, could you describe the negative edge for the main body of the pool (difficult to see in the photos)? Would it be different from the concept sketches I posted earlier?

 

[AlanH]

Re: DIY Pool Build - Latin Latitudes - In Ground, Perimeter Wet Edge, Vinyl Lined

It's been three years since my original postings outlining our plans for a swimming pool. Construction was delayed for about one year while we had to attend to our business, reach a comfort level with key technical/engineering aspects of the design, and source building materials (locally as well as imports for key components). What turned out to be rather iterative process of technical consultations (with considerable input from TFP posts), material availability and budget led to a re-design of the form of the pool while preserving most of the original concepts (a few of which are): perimeter wet edge (for aesthetics as well as a massive, perimeter skimmer given location in year-round heavily forested and windy area); reverse flow circulation (in at bottom, out over perimeter wet edge); stock vinyl liners (due to prohibitive cost of plaster and tile finishes or a custom liner); a deep (min. 6 feet) "main" pool with a swim through access to smaller, shallow (18"-24") wading/lounging area/pool; pool an integral part of a comfortable living/recreational space.

The following photos and captions document the journey.


The Project. An 18' diameter round pool 6' deep joined to a 10'x16' oval pool 18" deep. The round pool has a perimeter wet/infinity edge; the "front" 1/3 cascades into a catch basin. All landscaping shown (retaining walls, patios, stairs) is new and part of the project. Key aspects of the project: pool walls built using a ferro-cement-like technology; infinity perimeter edge on round pool; off-the-shelf vinyl liners to finish/waterproof the pools; returns in walls near floor of pool for bottom-up water circulation.



The blue agaves were in the middle of everything. They, and several dozen others, were transplanted or given to friends.




Project Site: Given the design of the project--a perimeter negative edge pool with cascade spanning upper and lower patios--working on a hillside was a bit of a blessing. It reduced by about half the amount of excavation required.


Francisco and his son, Geraldo, setting things up. All survey work is done with measuring tapes, plumb bobs, assorted bubble levels, a water level and a wee bit of geometry, especially the 3-4-5 (or 6-8-10, etc.) rule for squaring up right angles.