Hair Loss

[andedon]

I am a high school coach using an indoor pool for practice. Lately I have had complaints about irritated eyes and hair loss. The Chlorine levels in the pool have been testing at a high level 8 - 9 ppm and the PH has also been high 7.8 - 8.0. I have had complaints about eyes in the past and I am familiar with Chloramine problems irritating the eyes but I have never had the hair loss issue. By hair loss I am talking about on the legs and arms. Can anyone give me any idea of what might cause this?

Coach

 

[JasonLion]

Welcome to TFP!

FC at 8 to 9 in an indoor pool without CYA is way too high. High chlorine levels can cause hair to become very brittle and break off, which people will call hair loss even though it will grow back. That FC level will do various kinds of damage both to people and to the materials the pool is made out of. Unless CYA is being used, rare in an indoor pool, that FC level is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

PH around 7.8 to 8.0 is going to cause eye irritation. PH should be between 7.4 and 7.6.

It sounds like the people maintaining the water chemisty are not doing their job.

 

[gonefishin]

JasonLion, I've heard of the problems that higher levels of chlorine can cause in an indoor pool without CYA. I know that you won't need to protect the water from the sun's rays with CYA...but is there any reason not to use CYA in an indoor pool for protection reasons?

thanks,
dan

 

[chem geek]

Dan,

I'm actually trying to promote this very technique of using a small amount of CYA for indoor pools. Though I've been in communication with the CDC, APSP, and others about this, it's a slow process to make change. I want to try this out not only to reduce the effects of high disinfecting chlorine, including wearing out of swimsuits, dry skin, hair, etc., but the high disinfecting chlorine levels also makes the creation of disinfection by-products faster and this may be a key reason for the asthma and respiratory problems found with competitive swimmers and small children in indoor pools. Though poor air circulation, mostly from energy-efficient building, is also a factor (as is a lack of sunlight to breakdown chlorine by-products), the lack of CYA means that most indoor pools have at least 10 times the disinfecting chlorine level of outdoor pools. They are essentially "overdosed" with chlorine, even at an FC of 1-2 ppm, let alone higher FC levels.

If ANYONE out there has access to an indoor pool and is willing to add 10-20 ppm CYA to the water to see if it improves the problems with indoor pools, please let us know the results. I have a feeling that only through some real world examples am I going to be able to convince some others to experiment and change standards.

There is even this patent (ironically from Bio-Lab) where you should notice Example 7 where glycoluril slows the production of trihalomethanes from humic acid and Example 4 that slows the gas-off of both chlorine and inorganic chloramines. Glycoluril is very similar to CYA in terms of binding with chlorine except it binds even more strongly (though still releases chlorine to measure in an FC test).

Richard

 

[gonefishin]

Huh...it just seems like it would be good housekeeping to offer this bit of protection. Do we have anyone with a fully indoor pool here?

good luck!

(oh...Have you got time to look at some of the pictures of water samples from my microscope? I'd like to run them by you if you have the time.)

dan

 

[chem geek]

Though CYA in an indoor pool makes sense if you believe in the equilibrium chemistry of chlorine and CYA established in 1973 and published in 1974, you can't let such a concept that CYA slows down all chlorine reactions become common industry (i.e. pool store) knowledge if you want to promote the idea that "CYA doesn't matter; only Free Chlorine matters". This latter idea is essential to promote Trichlor and Dichlor products without consumers needing to worry about FC levels when their CYA levels rise. Trichlor is very acidic so requires pH Up. When CYA rises without FC rising, then algae will form so a regular algaecide is required. This forms a trifecta of chlorine and specialty chemical products that are far more profitable than bleach or chlorinating liquid alone.

As for looking at pictures of samples in the microscope, I think waterbear (Evan) should also be involved. He is very familiar with aquariums and water testing and probably has more knowledge than I do of pictures of algae. I just looked on the web for photos and basic understanding of the distinction between plant cells (i.e. algae) vs. plant spores or pollen vs. dirt.

Richard

 

[gonefishin]

As for looking at pictures of samples in the microscope, I think waterbear (Evan) should also be involved. He is very familiar with aquariums and water testing and probably has more knowledge than I do of pictures of algae. I just looked on the web for photos and basic understanding of the distinction between plant cells (i.e. algae) vs. plant spores or pollen vs. dirt.

Richard

Good idea...I'll send him a pm today and see if you would be interested also. My poor wife thinks I've gone mad Maybe I'll send a pm to Sean to and see if we could get a "closed" forum for viewing and discussion (just a thought).

thanks,
dan

 

[SeanB]

Sounds interesting. I don't really see the advantage of having it in a closed forum though. Whatever you find out might be helpful to others as well. I suggest starting a thread in the already existing algae forum and holding your discussion there. If, for some reason, this is information you need to keep private, then of course you can do so via pm or e-mail.

Thanks,
Sean