sun coast ultimate metal control

[d1mbu1b]

Thanks again for all your help last time around.
The pool is now up to snuff (still stuck with 90 CYA though):
FC12
TA 120
pH 7.5
CH 450 (well water)
CYA 90 (ignorance)
Borate 50
It is crystal clear and easy to maintain using BBB!

My question is: when is it necessary to add "suncoast ultimate metal control"?
I was looking through my records and remembered the pool store wanted me to use a $20 bottle every month.
I could not find any info using 'search', but really didn't know what I was looking for.

 

[zea3]

Do not arbitrarily add metal control. Have the water tested for metals first, then add the correct sequestrant as needed. Did your fill water test high for metals when the pool was built, or did they just assume you would have metals since you are on a well?

Since you do have high CH your TA could stand to come down a bit, perhaps to the 70-90 range. That will help prevent scale formation. You may also want to keep you pH a little lower, around 7.2, also to help inhibit scale.

I googled suncoast ultimate metal control and it says it is used to remove and prevent copper staining and is recommended for new pools to prevent scale and stain build up. If you are using it to prevent scale, then you don't need it. Keeping your TA and pH lower will also prevent scale.

 

[Poolschoolgrad]

Suncoat products are a private label brand manufactured by Blue Wave.

The product is a sequesterant for metals and also slows calcium scaling.
It may have been initially recommended by your pool store for a newly plastered pool.
Unless you have a high concentration of metal in your fill water, then the product may no longer be necessary.

Here are a couple of pool school articles dealing with each problem.

pool-school/metal%20stains

pool-school/calcium_scaling

Stay away from Calcium hypochlorite as your chlorine source as this would increase your calcium level and no more Tri-chlor or Di-chlor tablets, sticks or powders as they will increase your already high CYA concentration.

pool-school/types_chlorine_pool

Don't worry so much about that CH of 450.
"CH levels up to perhaps 1,200 can be managed by reducing your TA and carefully keeping your PH relatively low" -pool school

If you are in a climate where you don't need to close your pool, you may be able to solve most of your pool issues before it is time to swim next season. Maintain your chlorine levels at the correct level relative to your CYA concentration.
pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock
Be patient and carefully manage your PH and TA throughout the Winter just as Zea3 has outlined. If you are in an area with frequent Winter rains, hopefully the CYA and the CH will decrease as the rain dilutes the pool water. With any luck, you could have a CYA of 50 and a CH of 300 by Spring

If you are in an arid climate then you can use your well water to dilute the CYA level and continue to maintain low PH and TA levels to keep the calcium in check. Reverse Osmosis is another solution.

 

[d1mbu1b]

Have the water tested for metals first, then add the correct sequestrant as needed. Did your fill water test high for metals when the pool was built, or did they just assume you would have metals since you are on a well?

I don't know.
What is the best way to 'independently' test for metals?

Since you do have high CH your TA could stand to come down a bit, perhaps to the 70-90 range. That will help prevent scale formation. You may also want to keep you pH a little lower, around 7.2, also to help inhibit scale.

Does this hold for high CYA?
I remember reading somewhere that your target TA should be +0.3CYA

I googled suncoast ultimate metal control and it says it is used to remove and prevent copper staining and is recommended for new pools to prevent scale and stain build up. If you are using it to prevent scale, then you don't need it. Keeping your TA and pH lower will also prevent scale.

Thank you for the insight. It must be I have 'metals' since I was told I need it every month. I will still try to test independantly however.
I have not used the metal control in 4 months or so and have no staining.

 

[d1mbu1b]

Suncoat products are a private label brand manufactured by Blue Wave.

The product is a sequesterant for metals and also slows calcium scaling.
It may have been initially recommended by your pool store for a newly plastered pool.
Unless you have a high concentration of metal in your fill water, then the product may no longer be necessary.

Here are a couple of pool school articles dealing with each problem.

pool-school/metal%20stains

this says they are phosphonic acid based. is this the same stuff as Ospho?

Stay away from Calcium hypochlorite as your chlorine source as this would increase your calcium level and no more Tri-chlor or Di-chlor tablets, sticks or powders as they will increase your already high CYA concentration.
pool-school/types_chlorine_pool

Currently, I don't use anything but bleach any more since I found out about CYA.

Don't worry so much about that CH of 450.
"CH levels up to perhaps 1,200 can be managed by reducing your TA and carefully keeping your PH relatively low" -pool school

Are there any rules of thumb for the correction?

If you are in a climate where you don't need to close your pool, you may be able to solve most of your pool issues before it is time to swim next season.

Sorry, I just updated my profile... Melbourne FL

Maintain your chlorine levels at the correct level relative to your CYA concentration.
pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock

I have been using the pool calculator for target chlorine levels it says 7-12, which one is right?

Be patient and carefully manage your PH and TA throughout the Winter just as Zea3 has outlined. If you are in an area with frequent Winter rains, hopefully the CYA and the CH will decrease as the rain dilutes the pool water. With any luck, you could have a CYA of 50 and a CH of 300 by Spring

I am hoping my CYA magically goes away. Its not really feasible for me to drain and refill with my well.

If you are in an arid climate then you can use your well water to dilute the CYA level and continue to maintain low PH and TA levels to keep the calcium in check. Reverse Osmosis is another solution.

I looked into the mobile RO trucks but could not find any in my area.

So, are these what my target levels should be?
FC 7-12
pH 7.2
TA 80
CYA 90 (cant change)
CH 450 (cant change)
borate 50

 

[Poolschoolgrad]

Hi

this says they are phosphonic acid based. is this the same stuff as Ospho?

Ospho is mostly phosphoric acid. You probably use this product before you apply primer to a rusted area to be painted.
The sequesterants contain Phosphonic acid. These HEDP products help keep the metals locked up (sequestered) in your water and help prevent staining. You won't need this product unless you have an issue with staining.
Taylor makes a test kit for Iron
http://tftestkits.net/K-1716-Taylor-Iron-Test-p30.html

I have been using the pool calculator for target chlorine levels it says 7-12, which one is right?

Your chlorine concentration of 12 is ok given your CYA is at 90 for warm water temperatures found in most of FL during the Summer. As the water temperatures get cooler, you can use a target of 10 and not see any issues with algae. You will use much less chlorine per month during the "Winter" than you used during the Summer. Continue to test regularly.

Your target levels seem appropriate for your current water balance needs. Keep in mind, these will change as your CH and CYA levels decrease.

CH and CYA won't go away by magic, but if your area receives it's normal rainfall, it should slowly decrease.

Are there any rules of thumb for the correction (to CH and CYA)?

By using the pool calculator you can calculate that you only need to replace around 1/4 of your pool water with fresh water in order to lower your CH by 100 ppm and replace half of the water to get that CYA down to an acceptable level.
Central Florida gets at least 40-50 inches of rain per year, right? So, within the next 4-6 months you should be well on your way to a trouble free pool ;-)

 

[zea3]

Hi again, to cut down on confusion I will type my answers in red.

Have the water tested for metals first, then add the correct sequestrant as needed. Did your fill water test high for metals when the pool was built, or did they just assume you would have metals since you are on a well?

I don't know.
What is the best way to 'independently' test for metals?
This is one instance where I will tell someone to take a sample to a pool store. Call first and ask if they can test for metals. Take a pool sample and a source (well water) sample. The reason for the two samples is to identify if some of the past chemicals used contain copper. There are metal tests you can buy, but unless you know you have metals in your source water, buying those tests would be an unnecessary expense. If your source water tests positive, they will identify the metal and you can ask here to find the best product to control it.

Since you do have high CH your TA could stand to come down a bit, perhaps to the 70-90 range. That will help prevent scale formation. You may also want to keep you pH a little lower, around 7.2, also to help inhibit scale.

Does this hold for high CYA?
I remember reading somewhere that your target TA should be +0.3CYA

Unfortunately no. CYA can only be reduced by reverse osmosis or drain and refill. I don't remember seeing anything about the TA/CYA ratio. Since draining and refilling is not an option for you, you can manage your pool with a CYA of 90. I did for about a year until I was able to get it down by taking advantage of some heavy rains. Instead of waiting to drain off excess water after a rain, drain off a couple of inches when heavy rains are expected but leave enough water for the pump to operate properly.

I googled suncoast ultimate metal control and it says it is used to remove and prevent copper staining and is recommended for new pools to prevent scale and stain build up. If you are using it to prevent scale, then you don't need it. Keeping your TA and pH lower will also prevent scale.

Thank you for the insight. It must be I have 'metals' since I was told I need it every month. I will still try to test independantly however.
I have not used the metal control in 4 months or so and have no staining.

It is good that you havn't seen any staining. Sometimes people assume that you will have a high iron content in the water since you are on a well. Not all wells have a high iron content, however, so you may be lucky!

 

[Poolschoolgrad]

I remember reading somewhere that your target TA should be +0.3CYA

ATA or CTA - Adjusted or Corrected Total Alkalinity

An adjustment is sometimes made to the measured TA, subtracting out the cyanurate alkalinity, to more closely approximate the alkalinity as CaCO3. This number is only used when calculating LSI. Here at TFP you should always use the TA result directly from the test. -- From pool school ABC's of water chemistry

 

[d1mbu1b]

Thank you everybody.