Paving around NEW POOL- PoolBuilder or seperate Paver?

[Rico Laguno]

Im in the process of hiring a pool builder to do a vinyl in ground pool and was wonder what is considered the more efficient practice when it comes to also installing a walkway around the pool and a seperate patio section. Is it best practice to have the Pool Builder do the pool and paving or should I just have the pool builder do the pool install and have a paving contractor come in and pave the walkway and patio separately?


I am looking to go with a paved bull nosed coping to cover the vinyl track. From what I understand, it seems like if you have the pool builders do everything, you wind up paying almost double on the paving portion. So I was thinking about breaking it out into 2 separate jobs to try and save money. Is this a sound approach, or will this introduce problems? Also what preperations would I need to have my pool builder make to ensure that the pavers can do their piece without any issues?


Thoughts?

 

[bk406]

Around here, the pool builder just subs out the work anyway, so they dont really do it. Their expertise is building the pool, not decks. My best advice is to hire your own guy. A lot of times the pool guy will ty to make a couple bucks if he subs it out, so going directly with a contractor yourself might save a buck or two per sq foot.

Coulple of questions.

1) You want bullnosed canataliver coping?

2) You looking for concrete or pavers?

 

[siniardfam]

We are actually installing a pool right now and did this approach. Our BIL owns a construction company and he set us up w/his concrete guys. The PB installed the paved coping and about 24" out around the pool and then our concrete guy paved the rest. He (the PB) deducted $6k off of the total pool price since we did our own concrete. His standard was (I think) 8 feet around each side. We ended up doing 10 feet on 3 sides, 20 feet on 1 side and a curved walkway to our back patio. It's also stamped and colored to look like stone. We are so happy with it - just got done last Friday 9/3/10. Once I download some pictures to my computer, I'll put on here. Our cost for what we got was $8k.

 

[Rico Laguno]

Im not sure of the proper terminology, what is bullnosed cantilever coping?......Im looking for a bullnosed paver stone that hangs over the pool so it appears as if the pool is made of concrete/gunite. I dont want to see the aluminum track for the vinyl liner.


I still havent decided how I want to completely finish the patio and deck.......Ive looked at alot of samples of pavers, flagstone, concrete, etc. I think to keep cost down and still have a look that has a bit of elegence to it would be to have the entire patio and deck layed with a bone white concrete and then border it with a nice looking paver stone or flagstone, and also match whatever I border the concrete with to serve as my bullnosed coping. Does this make sense?

If anyone can provide some example links of what I might be looking for, I'd appreciate it

 

[bk406]

Im looking for a bullnosed paver stone that hangs over the pool so it appears as if the pool is made of concrete/gunite.

That's what bullnosed cantilver coping is. You can use stone, concrete, or paver bricks that are rounded on one end. They are mortered to the top of the steel wall of the pool and hang over a half inch to an inch. Thats the cantilever aspect of it. As I said, you can get the same effect with stone or even concrete. With concrete a special form is used to make the canilever edge.

 

[Rico Laguno]

Ok so if I use a seperate paver after the pool is built, how is the backfill of the pool handled? Does the pool builder still perform a 3/8 or 3/4 crushed stone backfill up to the top of the pool and leave it exposed for the pavers? Im not understanding this part of the job.

-Does a concrete collar lay ontop of the backfill which would then sit underneath the paver stones or cement deck?...If so, is it a 3ft collar around the entire pool?

-Should the paver that I hire be responsible to do the bullnose cantilever coping along with the patio and deck or does the pool builder do the coping?

-Who is now responsible for cracking or deck sinking issues if problems arise?......The Pool Builder or the Paver?

 

[bk406]

Ok so if I use a seperate paver after the pool is built, how is the backfill of the pool handled? Does the pool builder still perform a 3/8 or 3/4 crushed stone backfill up to the top of the pool and leave it exposed for the pavers? Im not understanding this part of the job.

Yes, the pool guy will still do the backfill and final grade. The material will come up to a few inches under the steel wall rim. When you hire your deck guy, he may have to remove a bit of material or maybe add a little depending on the deck type you choose. At any rate, its not a big deal. I had to remove about 6 inches of the processed gravel around my pool when we did the coping and pavers.

Does a concrete collar lay ontop of the backfill which would then sit underneath the paver stones or cement deck?...If so, is it a 3ft collar around the entire pool?

No, the concrete collar goes around the bottom of the pool before the backfill is done. What you will see when the pool guy is finished is a smooth surface of stone or gravel.

Should the paver that I hire be responsible to do the bullnose cantilever coping along with the patio and deck or does the pool builder do the coping?

The pool guy wont do this since you would be hiring out the deck separately. Even if the pool guy did it, he wouldnt do it, he would sub it out. Your deck guy may or may not do the coping. Depends on the contractor. Some have the expertise to do it, some sub that part out to a mason. But, whether he actually does it or subs it to a mason, the coping and deck should be in the final negotiated price. If you do concrete, you get quotes for guys who do pool decks. Generally, they all do canteliver pours and know how to do it. The potentially subed work would be if you went with bricks or stone coping.

Who is now responsible for cracking or deck sinking issues if problems arise?......The Pool Builder or the Paver?

Generally the paver, but its a question to ask. The paver guy should make sure the sub surface is compacted correctly. Ideally, you should wait until spring to put in the deck to make sure the backfill is sufficiently settled so it becomes less of an issue.

 

[Rico Laguno]

I think I am still confused about cantilever vs Bullnose......is the difference that cantilever coping is a concrete coping while bullnose is a pavers coping?.....or are there other distinguishing differences?

 

[bk406]

Yea, your still confused. I think it has to do with terms and the fact a few of these can be interchanged.
There are two basic types of coping for a vinyl pool, canteliver and bullnose.

1) Canteliver coping

All this means is that the coping, whatever material you use, sticks out over the edge of the pool by some distance, usually an inch maybe an 1 1/2. The material can be brick, concrete, stone, etc. The "bullnose" is how the edge of the coping is treated. Normally, with coping that sticks out over the edge of the pool, you dont want a sharp, 90 degree edge, although i have seen it. The edge is usually rounded or bullnosed to create a smooth edge. This is accomplished by using a caneliver form for concrete, cutting a bullnose edge on stone, or using pavers that are manufactured with an edge that is rounded over on one end (the end that hangs out over the pool).

This is what the track look like that bolts onto the top of the pool:

Here is a pict of my coping. It's canteliver, made out of stone, that has a bullnose edge

Here is a pict of bricks that have a bullnose edge that can be used in place of stone. The brick is mortered to the top of the coping track just like the stone and hangs over the edge

2) Bullnose coping

I think this is where the confusion lies. When people talk about "bullnose coping" on a vinyl pool, they are usually refering to the kind that used the plastic or metal coping track that is already rounded over. Brick, stone, concrete, etc are put underneath the rounced over metal. The effect is a "bullnose" coping, but the bullnose is ormed by the coping track, not the coping material itself. The other important distinction is that the coping is flush with the edge of the pool; it does not cantelivered (hang over the edge).

Here is a bullnose, non canteliver coping before stone/bricks go in

And here is an after pict with concrete underneath. It's bullnose, but the coping track makes the bullnose, not the concrete, and it does not hang over the edge. You could use bricks to stick under the coping track as well.

 

[lbridges]

...
Here is a pict of my coping. It's canteliver, made out of stone, that has a bullnose edge

...

I don't remember ever seeing this photo, and have never seen such a coping (maybe I don't get out enough). The curved stone looks expensive - hope you don't mind answering - but was it?

I went with a poured cantilever concrete coping & deck since I didn't like the look of bricks/stones every few inches. It's a bit late for me, but your treatment would have been right up my alley (if I had known it could be done - maybe next time).

 

[bk406]

It was kind of expensive, but not too much more than bullnose bricks cut correctly and mortored in. It was hand cut. The mason laid the pattern out with 4' sheets of luon and a sharpie. He cut out the luon and use it as a template to cut out the stone. The stone is limestone (yea, i know, but its pretty hard and I havent had a problem with flaking, yet. I sealed it) that came in 4' x 1.5' pieces. The curves were cut with a huge wet saw and the bullnose edge was cut with a bullnose jig on the same saw.

 

[offgrid]

Nice coping.

 

[surfacerenewal]

It's usually good pratice to have one builder for the entire project. That way if there is something wrong, one person can be held responsible. He said she said is what usually happens when you try and be the general.

 

[bk406]

That blanket advice is just not good or sound. You want the best contractor who is good at their craft.