Can you swim while doing this treatment? If not how long, before you can go back in.
ascorbic acid treatment?
- Thread starter ethany
- Start date
You might want to protect your eyes as the pH will drop. Add sequesterant to capture the metals so they don't reform stains elsewhere. Then rebalance the water and enjoy the pool.
Scott
Scott
Well, during the treatment itself, the chlorine level gets to zero so there is no protection from bacterial growth. I'd wait until you start adding chlorine again before swimming in the water or at least use some PolyQuat 60 during the treatment as that is better than nothing with regards to inhibiting pathogen growth. The usual ascorbic acid procedure has you add PolyQuat 60 initially which not only protects the water from getting algae when there is no chlorine, but it helps to reduce the chlorine level initially as well before you add the ascorbic acid.
Last fall I waited until the dogs were no longer swimming much to do the AA treatment. The water temp was way, way, colder than what I would swim in BUT the process took a lot longer because of the cold water; cold water slows down the process considerably. I think it took about 2 weeks. They got in a few times but I wasn't too worried about their health as they are country dogs that are exposed to all sorts of things anyway. I should have been concerned though, 
as all three developed pretty resistant ear infections. It was very costly to treat that; vet visits, ear drops, antibiotics. They went in to the vet every two weeks for a couple of months. The drops, for the Doodles, averaged $20 a week (2 X $20 = $40 a week), and $30 for Jake Mastiff, for at least two months. That's $70 a week just for the drops. 
So, I would highly advise staying out of the pool until you start adding chlorine back.
Last year my spa developed a resistant bio-slime that took up residence in the pipes. This was before I found TFP (spa was probably rarely "safe" before TFP). It took a major decontamination, using bleach at 100 ppm to knock it out after doing two costly spa flushes using expensive products that hardly put a dent in it. I developed a painful, resistant bladder infection that took two weeks to clear it up using several medications. (This happened soon after all three muddy dogs jumped into the spa with me. We gate the steps now.
) The meds were not nearly as expensive as those for the doggies (M.D. and R.N in residence here so we typically self treat for most things) but the discomfort and hassle was not a lot of fun. BTW.... I have very high resistance to most bacteria and haven't needed antibiotics much my whole life despite many and frequent wounds from active life style and exposure to lots of baddies in medical situations and living "in the wilds".
So, I would highly advise staying out of the pool until you start adding chlorine back.
gg=alice
as all three developed pretty resistant ear infections. It was very costly to treat that; vet visits, ear drops, antibiotics. They went in to the vet every two weeks for a couple of months. The drops, for the Doodles, averaged $20 a week (2 X $20 = $40 a week), and $30 for Jake Mastiff, for at least two months. That's $70 a week just for the drops. So, I would highly advise staying out of the pool until you start adding chlorine back.
Last year my spa developed a resistant bio-slime that took up residence in the pipes. This was before I found TFP (spa was probably rarely "safe" before TFP). It took a major decontamination, using bleach at 100 ppm to knock it out after doing two costly spa flushes using expensive products that hardly put a dent in it. I developed a painful, resistant bladder infection that took two weeks to clear it up using several medications. (This happened soon after all three muddy dogs jumped into the spa with me. We gate the steps now.
) The meds were not nearly as expensive as those for the doggies (M.D. and R.N in residence here so we typically self treat for most things) but the discomfort and hassle was not a lot of fun. BTW.... I have very high resistance to most bacteria and haven't needed antibiotics much my whole life despite many and frequent wounds from active life style and exposure to lots of baddies in medical situations and living "in the wilds".So, I would highly advise staying out of the pool until you start adding chlorine back.
gg=alice
I read that keeping the ph lower will help with staining (7.0-7.2) I have a saltwater gen. and the BBB method for swg says to keep ph between 7.5-7.6
If I kept it on the low side,would it damage the swg or other equip.?
If I kept it on the low side,would it damage the swg or other equip.?
You can keep the pH lower, though I wouldn't go below 7.0 and you could probably just target 7.2, and the only thing you need to consider is the saturation index if you have any exposed plaster or grout in contact with water. Otherwise, the lower pH should be OK. In fact, that's what some metal ion systems propose to minimize staining. Just keep in mind that it isn't always easy to maintain a low pH since carbon dioxide outgassing will tend to make the pH rise. Though you could lower the TA, if the TA gets very low (much below 50 ppm) then one can get locally low pH which could corrode metal faster (this usually occurs where there are biofilms that produce lower pH).
One more question, I have a swg with the nature 2 system. I was told that the mature 2 cartridge is contributing to the metal issue. The problem is since the nature 2 and the electrode for the swg are one integrated system I can not get rid of one with out the other.
Is there a way of plugging the port where the cartridge is?
Is there a way of plugging the port where the cartridge is?
ethany said:
I was typing this as chem geek and you were typing. The absolute best thing you can do for your pool is to get that expensive, "sure to give you stains" Nature 2 out of your system. I used ionization from late 80's until last year. I'm very "intimate" with the dreaded copper staining and probably the only time my pool was really safe was after the weekly shocking dose of chlorine. I suppose that one could avoid eventual copper staining but the challenges keeping system just at the right balance to avoid the stains are immense. The long, slow EXPENSIVE treatment I'm doing on my pool now is partially for copper staining. The copper stains were deposited from summer of 08 through summer of 09 after a major acid wash in 08. They may never totally go away and this 14 year old, but still in good shape (except for the copper stains) plaster has had three acid washes and I'm not willing to risk the damage another acid wash would cause.
I'm going to let the 'xperts comment on SWG health. The iron that gets in my pool comes from our blown in dust and silt/mud that the dogs drag in. So I don't know how that amount compares to a situation where the fill water is high in iron.
I have been keeping sequestrant in the pool constantly since last fall. Despite having sequestrant in water there are two conditions added together that will allow a bit of staining on the remaining calcium scale in my shallow end. (I'm doing a very slow treatment right now, using Jack's Magenta, for calcium scale and old copper stains; that is keeping the pool in condition for swimming, using larger than "maintanence" doses of JM, and keeping pH 7-7.2) The conditions, both of which must occur together, are letting the pH even a little above 7.5 and letting the dust/silt sit on the bottom for a day or so; both conditions must be met for the light staining. And that is with sequestrant at "normal", maintenance dose. Another thing that keeps staining from occurring is never allowing the chlorine to get low enough, for long enough to necessitate having to shock the pool. Under many conditions high levels of chlorine can cause the metals to drop out and deposit on surfaces.
I haven't had to shock my pool since finding TFP and practicing BBB so I haven't seen the metal drop out/deposit from high chlorine since I've become pool-schooled but there are enough comments on the board to convince me to never need to shock the pool.
The pool usually has much more than maintanence dose, though, so new staining rarely has a chance to occur.
I keep a really close eye on the pH, test daily when running the fountain, which I've been doing 23/7 for several weeks, (aeration raises the pH), and usually add muriatic acid daily. When I'm not running the fountain, I test every other day and make appropriate MA additions. Even though my plaster is old I don't worry too much about getting the pH lower than 7 with MA additions as it will rise on its own pretty quickly.
For me, it seems that it has been easier to keep the ph under 7.5 than to keep it between 7.5-7.8 but that's my pool and what it "wants". Every pool has different "demands".
gg=alice
BTW.... what are you wanting to accomplish with the ascorbic acid treatment? Copper staining? There is a high probability that an AA treatment will not reduce the copper staining and may, in fact, make it set in and hold onto or into surface more strongly, and could make the stain darker. At least that's what happens with plaster pools. I don't know about fiberglass though. I would advise testing to determine what the stain is and then let our experts help you with this.
Jack's magic has some products that treat for different stains. That's the route I would have gone if we had not needed to use the pool in our 110+ F heat index August. So I'm taking the slow route leaving the pool safe for use during treatment. I'm not expecting the stains to totally go away but they have lightened considerably. If I had opted to use the Jack's Scale and Copper treatment (pool unusable during treatment) it would have gone much faster and possibly even reduced the staining more than I will achieve using high doses of Jack's Magenta (for plaster pools).
gg=alice
Jack's magic has some products that treat for different stains. That's the route I would have gone if we had not needed to use the pool in our 110+ F heat index August. So I'm taking the slow route leaving the pool safe for use during treatment. I'm not expecting the stains to totally go away but they have lightened considerably. If I had opted to use the Jack's Scale and Copper treatment (pool unusable during treatment) it would have gone much faster and possibly even reduced the staining more than I will achieve using high doses of Jack's Magenta (for plaster pools).
gg=alice
I have spot treated with a vitamin c tablet and it instantaneously dissolved the stain,so I am hoping it would work for the rest of the pool.
ethany said:
That's encouraging. Be sure to test out different areas of staining. Vit C tabs didn't do anything on my copper stains but most of them were under white scale stained by iron and as the scale is releasing the stains are becoming more evident. My plaster is blue so it is easy to see the blue plaster emerge as the scale lifts. Although my staining is too spread and extensive to spot treat I ordered five lbs of Jack's Stain and Scale treatment. I'm going to put some in a sock and hang down at a staining point. If it does anything I might use the Jack's Stain and Scale treatment once the weather cools down and the dogs aren't as interested in swimming. That's when I did the AA treatment last year but the water was so cool it took a lot longer than usual.
The AA worked great for the iron stained scale but probably worsened the copper stains. I kept lots of sequestrant in all winter, and continue to do so, with the Aquabot scrubbing many hours a day and it really helped with the scale even though we had a record cold winter (not the coldest on record but one of "the") (record cold pool water) and one inch of ice on the pool during our big freeze in January. We had one winter with below 0 F temps for several days (really rare here) and I lost some pipes even with the pool running. That's when I started putting heat tape on the pipes and insulating the pipes and valves even keeping water moving all winter, during cold snaps, so it hasn't happened again. I did lose 2-3 Nature 2, commercial sized vessels, to freeze damage, over the years, even with water running through them so had a pool guy rig the vessel up with unions so I could take it out during winter and put a length of pipe in its place.
The Jack's Scale and Copper Treatment will be a lot cheaper. I've already spent about $500 for the Jacks Magenta in the past three weeks.
With the water so clear the copper stains are bothersome to me. And the releasing scale creates a lot of work becuase I have to backwash every 36-48 hours but the stains are fading. 
I can't remember what the AA cost. I ordered it from Amazon. I ended up using about 3 times recommended amount. That was probably due to the water being so cold. I ran out in the middle of treatment and had to purchase some from a local big Vit Store. The cost was astronomical compared to the Amazon price.
gg=alice
BTW... last week I purchased some dry acid, put in a men's athletic sock, and hung it down on a stained area. It didn't appear to do anything. I didn't want to leave it too long though. I did less than an hour with pump and Aquabot running.
I had to purchase some socks at Costco because we don't use those. I guess I'll give most of the 10 pack to my neighbor. He just cut half of my front yard this a.m. It was about 2 ft tall. Is that one super neighbor or what. :-D (You can't see our yard from the road otherwise I wouldn't have "laid off" the lawn crew. I did get a new, fancy Honda mower for my birthday but haven't had time to use it. I know, sexy birthday present.
One year DH gave me a huge jar of fancy pickles. This year he offered to get me any cake from anywhere I wanted, driving distance. I opted out on that one as he, the carb nazi, would have griped the whole time it was in the house.)
Where are you located? Depending on how cool/cold your water gets it could slow down the treatment considerably. At least algae won't be as much a worry if the water is pretty cold. In one way, cooler water was an advantage because when I started adding chlorine back in I didn't have to do it as fast as I would have if the water had been warmer. I did, though, put loads of Polyquat 60; lots more than the recommended. Our fall was one of the coolest on record too, and record cloudy/rainy all fall and winter. But here we may have freezing temps and next few days in 80s-90s so I didn't want to take any chance of algae getting a hold. I figured it was worth the price for some extra bottles of Polyquat for protection. I'm thinking the water temp may have been somewhere in the 60's. I can't remember but it must have been pretty cool as the dogs weren't swimming much. They were swimming enough to get ear infections from lack of sanitizer. Last year they were leaping in on top of each other and frequently going under. As they have gotten older they aren't doing that, thank doGness.
gg=alice
I had to purchase some socks at Costco because we don't use those. I guess I'll give most of the 10 pack to my neighbor. He just cut half of my front yard this a.m. It was about 2 ft tall. Is that one super neighbor or what. :-D (You can't see our yard from the road otherwise I wouldn't have "laid off" the lawn crew. I did get a new, fancy Honda mower for my birthday but haven't had time to use it. I know, sexy birthday present.
One year DH gave me a huge jar of fancy pickles. This year he offered to get me any cake from anywhere I wanted, driving distance. I opted out on that one as he, the carb nazi, would have griped the whole time it was in the house.)Where are you located? Depending on how cool/cold your water gets it could slow down the treatment considerably. At least algae won't be as much a worry if the water is pretty cold. In one way, cooler water was an advantage because when I started adding chlorine back in I didn't have to do it as fast as I would have if the water had been warmer. I did, though, put loads of Polyquat 60; lots more than the recommended. Our fall was one of the coolest on record too, and record cloudy/rainy all fall and winter. But here we may have freezing temps and next few days in 80s-90s so I didn't want to take any chance of algae getting a hold. I figured it was worth the price for some extra bottles of Polyquat for protection. I'm thinking the water temp may have been somewhere in the 60's. I can't remember but it must have been pretty cool as the dogs weren't swimming much. They were swimming enough to get ear infections from lack of sanitizer. Last year they were leaping in on top of each other and frequently going under. As they have gotten older they aren't doing that, thank doGness.
gg=alice
I live in NJ and it is still very warm here, last couple days it cooled down to high 70s to low 80s. Next week it will be in the high 80s so I hope I can complete the treatment before it gets too hot.
I need to close the pool early this year because I have to plant grass seed and since the cover needs to be spread out across the yard it becomes a problem.
I need to close the pool early this year because I have to plant grass seed and since the cover needs to be spread out across the yard it becomes a problem.
ethany said:
I see. You have a very small window. If your water temps are pretty high now it may only take a day or two but then you have to up the chlorine slowly or else the metals will fall back out. Don't skimp on sequestrant and algaecide but be sure that the algaecide does not have any copper it it; many do.
We had night temps in low 70's last night and a few nights coming that will be in 60's. That is so very, very, very rare here. Up until a couple of days ago the night temps were still in mid 90's well past midnight. My pool water running at 89-90 F this past month, using fountain for cooling, round the clock, was 83 this morning, to cool for me, and the fountain wasn't on. It lost 7 degrees over night .............. in August in Texas.
Time to break out the rag wool socks and ear muffs. :lol:
Please keep us posted and take lots of pictures. We love pictures.
gg=alice
I surely hope some of our experts will chime in here. As you are closing your pool I would worry about metals settling back out over the winter unless you can top up sequestrant in water and circulate it some, using one or two small submersible pumps. I don't know how fast the sequestrant will breakdown in cold water if at all. I have a sequestrant test kit now but I haven't had it for very long so I haven't been able to test during winter.
I really don't know what happens in that case. It seems my staining was at it's worst after a winter with the Floatron in the pool. The pool was open but ramped way down in pump and cleaner time. After the acid wash, summer 08, I had the worst, fastest copper staining during the winter 08-09 when the Floatron was in the pool all winter. That was my second, going on third year using the Floatron. Maybe it put out more copper than the Nature 2 did. Just don't know.
Also, I hope some of our experts will have suggestions on limiting or cutting off the ionizer part of your system. With my Nature 2 vessels I could just take the cartridge out. I tried the Nature 2 Express for a short period of time but it was insufficient for my pool size and the number of hours the pump was running. That was the first time, in all the years I used Nature 2, that I saw any hint of algae other than when I let the pool become a swamp during a few winters, when I couldn't be here to keep the "forest" out of the pool.
Hopefully there is a way to limit water going through the cartridge part of the system.
The cartridges, if that's what you have, have a limited life. I ran through three or four a year because my pump was on so much of the time, year round, and I have a lot of water replacement due to frequent backwashings. I and some friends just left our Express units in place well beyond their useful life. I was the only one who didn't immediately switch to chlorine. I was the only one who had so much copper staining. With the Express you have to drill a hole in a pipe and unless you close the pool fully you can't take the cartridge out without repairing the pipe. If yours is getting near the end of its usefulness maybe you can just leave it where it is without doing anything. There might be a possibility, though, that it might continue to put some copper into the pool when it is past its prime. I would like for someone to comment on that.
One TFP member had a Nature 2 rupture throwing copper beads all throughout the system. I don't know if there was any damage or staining though.
gg=alice
I really don't know what happens in that case. It seems my staining was at it's worst after a winter with the Floatron in the pool. The pool was open but ramped way down in pump and cleaner time. After the acid wash, summer 08, I had the worst, fastest copper staining during the winter 08-09 when the Floatron was in the pool all winter. That was my second, going on third year using the Floatron. Maybe it put out more copper than the Nature 2 did. Just don't know.
Also, I hope some of our experts will have suggestions on limiting or cutting off the ionizer part of your system. With my Nature 2 vessels I could just take the cartridge out. I tried the Nature 2 Express for a short period of time but it was insufficient for my pool size and the number of hours the pump was running. That was the first time, in all the years I used Nature 2, that I saw any hint of algae other than when I let the pool become a swamp during a few winters, when I couldn't be here to keep the "forest" out of the pool.
Hopefully there is a way to limit water going through the cartridge part of the system.
The cartridges, if that's what you have, have a limited life. I ran through three or four a year because my pump was on so much of the time, year round, and I have a lot of water replacement due to frequent backwashings. I and some friends just left our Express units in place well beyond their useful life. I was the only one who didn't immediately switch to chlorine. I was the only one who had so much copper staining. With the Express you have to drill a hole in a pipe and unless you close the pool fully you can't take the cartridge out without repairing the pipe. If yours is getting near the end of its usefulness maybe you can just leave it where it is without doing anything. There might be a possibility, though, that it might continue to put some copper into the pool when it is past its prime. I would like for someone to comment on that.
One TFP member had a Nature 2 rupture throwing copper beads all throughout the system. I don't know if there was any damage or staining though.
gg=alice
Thanks for your reply. I wonder if there is a pvc cap that might fit over the vessel. The other option I had was what you mentioned, just not replace the cartridge,its already 2 seasons old (but then again our season is from end of may -sept.) any other ideas would be appreciated.
Since the cartridge is apparently "replaceable", why not just remove it? Why wait until it gets used up since it will just continue to add metal ions to the water increasing the risk of staining.
chem geek said:
Is the Duoclear not able to be pressurized with the mineral cartridge removed? That's what you seem to be indicating. That's how the Nature 2 Express functions.
I went to the Nature 2 website but I can't tell whether that is the case. The installation pdf won't open.
gg=alice
The cartridge is part of the cover/cap. The cap is doughnut shaped. remove the cartridge and your left with a hole in the middle.
