Fudgebar's pool build- have a lot of questions...

Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

Well, a vinyl pool with the options he/she was quoted will run within 4-5 k of that price in the northeast. It's the labor, its mor expensive. cost of living, etc. Thats the reality of living on the east coast north of DC/baltimore. Things cost more.
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

bk406 said:
Well, a vinyl pool with the options he/she was quoted will run within 4-5 k of that price in the northeast. It's the labor, its mor expensive. cost of living, etc. Thats the reality of living on the east coast north of DC/baltimore. Things cost more.


True, if you go through a local company to do the "whole" build. There ARE other options that could save him thousands! I know....I'm going through the process myself.
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

Based on the email Malibu sent me, it seems like he is buying the kit and all the components separately and I guess being the general contractor himself. I hope you dont mind me sharing that, I wont mention any details

....I can appreciate this route and there is probably a huge savings to be had by doing it this way...but I am a woman (divorced with only a weekend boyfriend) and I wouldn't know the first thing about where to start with this approach. LOL, I can hardly even handle all the options I am hearing on this one post with an actual contractor/salesman doing all the work for me! :)

BK, you mentioned to find out what they are Backfilling the pool with....Please explain. My first guess would be the dirt they removed but that cant be right... or you wouldnt have asked?

Im hoping all the electrical is included.....What about plumbing and drainage?...Is there any involved and should/would that be included as well?

Also you guys mentioned Heater Pump for sure...but why is it that most Pool salesmen are trying to push GAS Heaters?


thanks!
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

I thought that was what he was going to tell you. Sure, there's merit in doing that. you can save soe money, somewhat. You wont get as god a warrenty that way, and you really need to know something about construction to GC a job.


Any way, just ask him what he's going to use for backfill. sometimes you can use what came out, but more often than not, you need some better material. Ask him to give you a ballpark figure for hauling out the excess dirt, too.

On the heat pump, it really depends on the builder. Some like gas, some like a heat pump. Gas will be a bit more expensive, in some cases a lot more. You can heat up the pool faster with gas, but it will cost more than a heat pump.

Yes the plumbing is included. But like i said, for that price, electrical work should be included too.
Get anthe rcouple estimates to, while your at it. They wont vary a lot, but you never know.
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

bk406 said:
I thought that was what he was going to tell you. Sure, there's merit in doing that. you can save soe money, somewhat. You wont get as god a warrenty that way, and you really need to know something about construction to GC a job.


Any way, just ask him what he's going to use for backfill. sometimes you can use what came out, but more often than not, you need some better material. Ask him to give you a ballpark figure for hauling out the excess dirt, too.

On the heat pump, it really depends on the builder. Some like gas, some like a heat pump. Gas will be a bit more expensive, in some cases a lot more. You can heat up the pool faster with gas, but it will cost more than a heat pump.

Yes the plumbing is included. But like i said, for that price, electrical work should be included too.
Get anthe rcouple estimates to, while your at it. They wont vary a lot, but you never know.


First of all, let's get this straight....I'm a woman too who owns a business so I am used to dealing with contractors.
As far as back fill, I'll be using most of what came out and some sand. Sand around here is not expensive.
I found a neighbor a mile away that has a huge empty lot that let the builders dump the excess dirt.
I knew from the start how much I wanted to budget for and so far, I am waaaay under what the local pool companies would charge for what I am having built.
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

I'm glad your getting the job done so cheaply.
BTW, sand makes poor back fill for an over dug pool. A couple feet of stone at least at the base is called for, along with a french drain wrapped in filter fabric, preferably. Then, processed gravel to top it off. Not everyone has a neighbor to dumped dirt and rocks on. Depending where its dumped, it can cost several hundred dollars.
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

Let me address some more of your questions, many pool contractors buy pool equipment in bulk from which ever of the major brands they can get the best deal on, then charge a premium for any changes. This makes sense from a business point of view, by have the same brand and family of pumps, filters, etc. (in a few sizes to fit most pools) there is less hassle in installation, simply repeat how you did it on the last job. On the topic of ionizers do a search on this board about them, I personally think traditional chlorine or SWG is a far better way to go. I should mention here that there is a certain environmental movement that wants everyone to think chlorine is evil, while I think they do have some points, I do also think they are greatly oversimplifying the issue and demonizing Chlorine even in cases like back yard pools where most of their base points are moot. On the topic of sand vs cartridge vs DE filtration, I had used sand filters for many years before switching to DE a couple of years ago, the choice can be a very personal one, however sand is still the common defacto choice for many contractors. Sand is seen as cheap, simple and good enough, much like the car rental industry only offering cars with automatic transmissions, everyone can drive one, not everyone wants the headaches that come with the extra performance of manual transmissions (ie. DE filter).

To sum things up, the list of equipment the contractor lists seems fairly sound except ionizer, Hayward super pump is a good solid pump that does not cost a fortune, no brand listed for a sand filter, so may be generic, but then again sand filters have not changed much in the last 40 years. Plumbing seems a bit excessive, but there seems to be a trend going that way, and it is a cheap way for the contractor to up sell, better than the too common minimal plumbing that has been common in the past. Hayward 500 watt pool light is about as standard as you can get, although you should be aware there is a big move towards LED lighting going on now. I don't know what your goals are, location looks like, etc. If your looking at cutting upfront expenses do away with the ionizer and get on the BBB method of using bleach for chlorination, you might also want to skip on the heater for now. Have it built (plumbed and wired) to add one later, this will shorten your swimming season a good bit, but I assume you ar still several weeks away from breaking ground, and would likely only get a little use out of the pool this season. Also as has already been noted hold off on pouring the deck, let the ground settle around the pool first, sure it will be ugly at fist, but then you can build the larger deck area you want later.

Ike
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

I agree with everything Isaac said except on the heater. I would actually get it now. It is true that you might not use it much this season, but i promise you come May 1st, you will love the fact you have it. It's still dang cold water may 1st on th east coast. You'll have 83 degree water and swimming on a 70 degree weekend in May when your neighbor with no heat is still looking at his loop-loc cover. :wink:
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

guys thanks so much for adding so much feedback and help for me.....I appreciate it. And please Keep it coming. Im writing all this stuff down :)


Your last post actually reminded me of a point that I never brought up which in fact could provide me even more price negotiating leverage AND could also use a bit more advice....

Im NOT actually building the pool THIS summer, Im gathering all this info, getting quotes and will be building the pool for NEXT summer 2011. With that said, can I get a better deal with a pool outfit by waiting to get prices in the fall or winter?

And secondly and even more importantly, what is the BEST time to actually have the pool installed?.....Fall, winter, Spring, ect? I have time...please advise on the perfect time to initiate this process.....thanks!
 

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Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

I suggest starting your pool build in April. We waited until the first week in June, and with delays, etc., we FINALLY have our pool, concrete, etc. But, it was tough going without a backyard most of the summer. And, we still need to get our landscaping and are awaiting sealing of the concrete. Additionally, we're having our concrete guy build us an exposed aggregate wall for our sheer descent waterfalls, so we're still not completely finished. We're in Michigan, and below is our pool quote. Perhaps you can use this information when negotiating with your builder. When we decided to choose our guy, we asked him to match the price of another builder, who was cheaper, but we didn't really care for his attitude, which is why we chose who we did. Anyway, below is our pricing:

18x37 vinyl lined roman end
Excavation (dig, haul, grade)
Footing cement
18x37 steel wall
10' Blue thermoplastic roman end step
Custom liner choice 20ml or 27ml
Cantilever coping
Vermiculite hard bottom
Backfill: fill sand and 6" of 21aa crushed concrete base
Dual main dran system with atmospheric relief
1 skimmer
2 returns
All 2" plumbing, fittings and valves
All flexpipe 1.5"-2"
2 Hayward Color Logic LED lights
2 Hayward LED light niches
1 Hayward Universal H-Series Electronic 300,000 btu heater
2 Hayward Northstar Energy Efficient 1.5 HP pumps (one is for the waterfalls)
1 Hayward Navigator (V) auto cleaner
Up to 40' electrical line
All outside of house electrical conversion (other than meter upgrade)
Up to 40' of gas line
Solar cover and winter plugs
Copper powder coated handrail
Copper deep end ladder
Pentair Easy Touch System
Starter kit (test strips, skimmer pole, manual vac)
3 24" Sheer Descent waterfalls
Additional plumbing, piping, labor for waterfall feature
TOTAL PACKAGE PRICE $31,244.00

As far as the concrete, we opted to contract that out to a very trusted concrete company. We let our backfill settle for two weeks prior to starting the concrete, which is a combination of stamped, aggregate and brushed. Good luck - hope all works out well for you.
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

Folks, I just called Waterworld in NJ and they are a huge manufacturer and turn key solution for FIBERGLASS pools......

My question to you good people is, would you consider a fiberglass pool as an option if the package I have listed above was almost like for like with equipment and 3ft concrete patio listed above in my first vinyl pool quote and the price was close or almost the same?


Please provide your thoughts,....Im eager to consider them as well


Remember Im in NJ if that matters
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

I guessed 35K before I saw the price you were quoted. I agree with ditching the ionizer, mine did not work as advertized. I do not think you would be happy with 3' of deck but that is a personal opinion.
 
Re: OPTIONS to improve look of that UGLY white Vinyl Coping??

fudgebar said:
LOL....Jason, no offense...but those steps you linked me to are the exact steps I am looking to AVOID! :)

If those are an improvement, I wonder the other ones looked like?

Are those my only options for steps?


thanks for your help...also, the link you sent me for the cantilever coping was helpful, do you have any real world images I could see of it in place on a pool?

thanks again and I welcome more comments
HAHA! I agree, those steps are not the greatest, but they do look far better than the stark white steps you usually associate with a vinyl pool. Check out this post on Gardenweb regarding upscale vinyl pools for some pictures & ideas on what you can do.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pools/msg0406590627896.html
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

Are Fiberglass pools really that ugly?....I was thinking they look closer to a gunite than a vinyl liner pool?.....But I am relying on you guys as the experts....

So I should definitely rule out Fiberglass?....OK. But just out of curiousity, what are the issues to deal with over vinyl?

thanks again all
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

They can stain worse tha vinyl in terms of metal staining. If you watch the water chemistry and dont add metals thru fill water and/or pool products that contain metals it might not be a problem.
They do need to maintain a level of calcium thats not required in a vinyl pool. Higher levels of calcium CAN lead to scaling in some circumstances. IMO, the chemistry is easier to take care of in a vinyl pool. Depending on the water table height, they COULD pop out of the ground if you were to ever drain it completely, but that would a be rare occurance. And..did I mention I dont like the looks :mrgreen:

Seriously,,i looked into fiberglass, gunite, and vinyl and chose vinyl. I think they do better in colder climates. And...you dont see as much fiberglass on the upper east coast because the makers are not really located here. You have to truck them in and if your not close to a manufacturing facility, its just not feasible to haul one hundreds of miles.
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

interesting points....thanks!

The reason I asked and I really want to consider a Fiberglass option now is because of a couple of interesting things....

The recent quote I recieved from Waterworld was actually only $29,000 for a complete turnkey installation of roughly everything I have listed above AND I am getting SW instead of the IONIZER

WaterWorld is in NJ near Atlantic City which is really only 1 hr south of me in North Bergen, NJ

Water World has been manufaturing and installing their OWN Fiberglass pools for over 45 yrs

Water World has an A+ rating with the BBB online

And this Fiberglass Pool they are offering is a Crystylized Midnight Blue gel coated pool so it wont be that ugly bathub white AND the steps will also be part of the pool

This fiberglass option seemed to come in as a late idea now to confuse me even further but the price is right and this company seems to know what they are doing....Any thoughts. This is now even more confusing for me! LOL But that price is much better
 
Re: Im a little CONCERNED about this quote for a 14x28 Vinyl...

There's nothing wrong with fiberglass pools; I would certainly consider it. bk406 doesn't like how they look, but that's OK, you don't have to invite him over :wink: I think they can look very nice; especially the brilliant white ones. The water color is so nice!
 

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