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Thread: Do my #'s look okay?

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    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Do my #'s look okay?

    Last week I let my water get away from me and I had some First-Time-Ever-Since-BBB cc of <.5. I was shocked even more when I found that my Alk was 130 and the pH was 8! My own fault. My lesson. But I remembered what WASTE told me once, "Joyce, calm down." I did and then I shocked the pool!....and got some acid in there. That was Friday. Here are some #'s for today from Pool Store and Ben's Kit (ordered refills from TFP)...can I do anything to balance my water better? (new plaster in March) btw, pool is clear and sparkling.

    ..................................................Pool Store................Ben's Kit from last year
    Saturation Index ......................-0.33 Balanced.............?
    Total Dissolved Solids.................1,500.........................?
    Free Chlorine.................................3.................. .......10(w/drops - 5-ish W/oto)*
    Total Chlorine...............................2.................... ......10
    Combined Chlorine.....................-1.0.........................0
    pH..............................................7.8......... ................7.8
    CYA.............................................30.......... ...............20 to 30
    Total Alk.......................................20................ .........110
    Calcium Hardness.........................204........................ 250
    Temp............................................85.......... .................90

    I will, of course, ignore their idea of adding 23 lbs of alk increaser

    *I think my dpd powder is old, too clumpy & scrapping bottom. Have ordered refills from Dave. Thanks for all the help.

    Joyce
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

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  2. Back To Top    #2
    Will leave the commenting on your numbers to others, but wanted to point out the humor I see here:
    The pool store says you have a TC of 2 when your FC is 3!!! Just goes to show you that that person did not have a clue! (TC=FC+CC)

    8000 gallon 20' x 48" round vinyl frame pool, 12" sand filter (don't have the specs on the pump), TF100 test kit
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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    The only serious difference with the pool store is TA. I expect chlorine and temperature to be lower because of travel time, CH is in the same general range, and CC of -1 is just silly. You might want to do the TA test again just to be sure, but I tend to believe in your number over theirs.

    Going with your numbers that looks fairly good.

    I would bring the PH down to 7.2 every time it hits 7.8.

    I would aim for a TA of 90, no rush on that though.

    If you aren't going to be winterizing in September/October I would bring the CYA up just a little. If you are closing soon there is no point in bothering.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mermaid Queen
    Will leave the commenting on your numbers to others, but wanted to point out the humor I see here:
    The pool store says you have a TC of 2 when your FC is 3!!! Just goes to show you that that person did not have a clue! (TC=FC+CC)
    Hi Grace,
    Yea, it does sounda kinda' crazy, BUT, of the THREE pool stores I have near (2 are within 3 miles and 1 is 5 miles), I choose the one that is 5 miles because, as crazy as it sounds, they have the best reads on the #'s! AND, the lady in there is soooo nice. She is doing the best job she can with the 'equipment' she has to use! I even have her store ordering skimmer socks! Mainly I go to the pool store to verify my CYA, which is difficult for me to read, and to have a second opinion oh my pH! I still use MY numbers. Learned that on PF and confirmed here on TFP! Example, when I took my water in today she asked how my pool looked and I told her it was clear and sparkling, but a bit too warm! She said that she had lots of customers coming in to say that their pools had turned GREEN overnight OOH! About that time I turned and saw a display of Baqua (?) and bells and whistles went off in my head! Remarkably, no matter how crazy my numbers look from them, the first thing on the list is Saturation Index and it always says "Balanced". She always seems surprised! I think she has given up on trying to get me to buy chems. I told her that the pool co. left lots and lots with us when they replastered, which they did, but, you know, Aldi's bleach is 6% and .99 for 3 qts.! Thanks again for your comments and help with TFP!
    Joyce
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

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  5. Back To Top    #5
    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    The only serious difference with the pool store is TA. I expect chlorine and temperature to be lower because of travel time, CH is in the same general range, and CC of -1 is just silly. You might want to do the TA test again just to be sure, but I tend to believe in your number over theirs.

    Going with your numbers that looks fairly good.

    I would bring the PH down to 7.2 every time it hits 7.8.

    I would aim for a TA of 90, no rush on that though.

    If you aren't going to be winterizing in September/October I would bring the CYA up just a little. If you are closing soon there is no point in bothering.
    Thanks Jason. I added some acid to get pH to about 7.4, but will retest and try to get to 7.2. I will also retest the Alk tomorrow, but I think that my #'s are correct(or at the very least, MORE correct), too. (On 7/27 The pool store said my Cal was 74 and my test said 250. After all, I had been working on it since March! And, I haven't added any Cal Hardness Inc since that test and their #'s went from 74 to 204! ) I can safely say that if it had not been for Pool Forum and now TFP, we would have a very big tomato garden.

    Get the Alk down to 90? .... Okay, may have to talk w/you more on that later since you did say no rush!

    I'm not sure that what we do is considered winterizing, but I gotta' go and will try to get up w/you on that later. Thanks again for all your help.

    Joyce
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    I would bring the PH down to 7.2 every time it hits 7.8.
    Jason - would you recommend that in most cases?
    I have a slightly high TA of about 130 and as a result of SWCG and water features find that my pH is hardest to control.
    Right now I am adding about 3 cups of acid almost every day to bring a 15000 gal pool down from 7.8 to 7.5....

    would you recommend adding more acid (5 cups), less frequently to bring it down to 7.2?

    Other numbers FYI:
    FC = 3
    CC = 0
    CH = 210
    Salt = 3900

    Cheers
    My Pool: 27K gal IG plaster, Pentair FNS Plus DE Filter, Intellichlor IC40 SWCG, Polaris 280 Cleaner

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    matj6876,
    I hope Jason doesn't mind if I comment. If you are adding acid that often, then yes, I would take the pH to 7.2 (knowing that it will rise pretty fast). There are a couple of things you can do to offset the constant rise in pH. First, lower the TA to about 90 (As Jason suggested). You might have to go even lower, say 80 (which worked for me) or even 70. But try 90 first. Secondly, you can add 50 ppm borates to the pool, which acts as a pH buffer. Additionally, the borates help prevent algae (which may possibly reduce chlorine consumption), and make the water feel silky.
    Poor Man's Pool
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    Yes, I recommend taking it down to 7.2. That gives you more safety margin and less frequent acid additions (though probably not as much as half as often). There are tradeoffs in how you manage acid additions for constantly rising PH. Going from 7.8 down to 7.2 reduces the frequency of acid additions, which for most people is the major issue. However holding PH between 7.4 and 7.6 will provide water that is slightly easier on your eyes, if you have sensitive eyes and are up for doing the more frequent acid additions. In any case I would suggest being symetrical around 7.5. 7.8 and 7.2 are both 0.3 different from 7.5 while 7.4 and 7.6 are both 0.1 different.

    A few pools, particuarly with lots of aeration (negative edge, frequent waterfall/spa usage), don't "like" to have low PH and then you have to shift the average PH upwards somewhat. But for most pools I would try for 7.2 to 7.8.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Jason, I did not know that so many folks had problems w/their pH rising! From what I've learned, last season (our first) we did not have this problem because we had old/cured plaster. I am learning that new plaster takes a bit of work!

    OK, I got home a little late and tested pH & Alk & FC and they were: pH 7.4, Alk 110 & FC (oto)5. I got my refills today, but they were so hot (mail box) that I decided to let them cool off....not being a chem person, I was afraid that something might 'blow-up' Anyway, tomorrow I will add enough acid to try to get to 7.2 and I will actually try to measure it very carefully in a measuring vessel using your calculator.

    BTW, how much (or does) the water temp affect pH or other #'s? During our recent heat wave, our water temp was 93.75ish.....hot! Positively not refreshing! (It's now down to 90. )

    Will get back w/you later about lowering the TA & closing CYA level, but first will try to find the stickies. Thanks for all your help.

    Joyce
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    MikeInTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poseidon
    matj6876,
    I hope Jason doesn't mind if I comment. If you are adding acid that often, then yes, I would take the pH to 7.2 (knowing that it will rise pretty fast). There are a couple of things you can do to offset the constant rise in pH. First, lower the TA to about 90 (As Jason suggested). You might have to go even lower, say 80 (which worked for me) or even 70. But try 90 first. Secondly, you can add 50 ppm borates to the pool, which acts as a pH buffer. Additionally, the borates help prevent algae (which may possibly reduce chlorine consumption), and make the water feel silky.
    I had the opposite problem - I lowered my TA to around 80 or 90, and found my pH wanting to drop below 7.2. I started adding baking soda to raise both the TA and pH a little at a time until my pH stabilized around 7.6. My TA ended up to be around 110 or so, I think. Now the pH will creep up a bit over a week's time to around 7.8 or so; I add about 11 oz of acid, and we're good for another week.
    24' x 52" AGP - approx 13,500 gallons
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    MikeInTN,
    Various sources of chlorine have various impacts on pH. A SWG usually causes the pH to rise due to the tiny bubbles it generates, which drives off CO2, resulting in a rising pH.

    Speaking of SWG's, how do you like the ChlorEase? How long have you had it? Is it installed adjacent to the liner? Any fading? Sorry for all the questions, but I would like to get as much info as possible
    Poor Man's Pool
    Doughboy 18 ft round above ground
    7600 gal with center drain
    Pentair sand filter, 1 HP pump
    50 ppm borates
    "I know just enough to be dangerous"
    Pool Calc Ver 1.41 (Excel)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjparrish
    BTW, how much (or does) the water temp affect pH or other #'s? During our recent heat wave, our water temp was 93.75ish.....hot! Positively not refreshing! (It's now down to 90. )
    The largest variation with temperature is chlorine usage. Hotter water uses up more chlorine. PH does shift with temperature, but the effect is fairly small in the range most swimming pools might be in. Temperature also affects the saturation index, though no where near as much as PH changes do.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Yes Joyce... thanks for posting! I have new plaster too and am fighting the pH daily - you are not alone!

    Thanks to others for their responses too.
    I added enough acid to take my pH down to 7.2 (theoretically) this morning.
    My TA is slowly coming down and that should also help.

    I'm going to have to read some about "Borates" but before adding them I am going to try and get my TA down to a decent level.

    Keep us in the loop with your progress Joyce.... I'm right there with you!
    My Pool: 27K gal IG plaster, Pentair FNS Plus DE Filter, Intellichlor IC40 SWCG, Polaris 280 Cleaner

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    Jason, I got my refills from Dave yesterday and tested the FC today and it is 12.5 , 0 cc & 12.5 TC.

    Recap: Fri FC was 2 w/ <.5 cc, so I shocked a little over w/6 - 96oz jugs. I figured it would hit around 17. Did not add any bleach Sat., but could not use dpd test 'cause powder was degraded. Using the OTO reader, it looked like about 5 FC so I assumed something ate up a bunch of my bleach from Fri night. So, awaiting the refills, I have been adding a jug each night (old routine).

    I am okay w/the FC and will let it drift back down and keep an eye on it; however, I am totally unsure about my pH readings now. Today they look like 7.6 - 7.8..(it is so hard to determine), but with the clorine so high maybe I should just wait till my FC is below 10 to retest? That should be tomorrow afternoon/evening, if things are back to normal.

    See what can happen when you can't get a good test on your pool water?

    Thanks for all you help. Joyce
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

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  15. Back To Top    #15
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Yes, wait for FC to go down a little before worrying about PH. FC of 10 or below should be alright for measuring PH. Taylor sometimes says "high" FC causes problems and other places says that the PH test is compensated up to a FC of 15. In practice it seems to be off a bit when FC is above 10 and gets worse as FC rises till it is way totally wrong when FC is above something like 20.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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  16. Back To Top    #16
    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Thanks again, Jason. btw, I guestimated that my FC was around 12 or 13 when I took my sample water to the pool store on Tues and got that crazy read. The high FC could probably explain that?

    Joyce
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

  17. Back To Top    #17
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    TA tests are not normally bothered by high chlorine levels and everything else was understandable in one way or another.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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  18. Back To Top    #18
    Butterfly's Avatar
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    I cannot find instructions for "Lowering Alk". My searches give way tooooo much information to search through.
    Do you think it may be eligible for a sticky?

    Thanks, Joyce
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

    ~ One should not use a sledge hammer to swat a mosquito. ~

    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

  19. Back To Top    #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by [url=http://www.troublefreepool.com/viewtopic.php?t=2130
    In this thread[/url] JasonLion]Regular acid additions to keep the PH under control will drive the TA down over time. If the rate of PH increase bothers you, you could do the lowering TA procedure (acid to lower PH to 7.0-7.2, aerate, repeat) to bring the TA down to 70-80.
    My Pool: 27K gal IG plaster, Pentair FNS Plus DE Filter, Intellichlor IC40 SWCG, Polaris 280 Cleaner

  20. Back To Top    #20
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    To lower TA: add acid to bring the PH down to 7.0-7.2, aerate the pool using spa jets, waterfall, fountain, pointing a return up towards the surface to enough to cause bubbles, air compressor, etc. Repeat the process when the PH gets up to 7.8 or so as many times as it takes to get your TA down where you want it.

    Adding acid lowers both the PH and the TA. Aeration raises the PH while leaving the TA alone.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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