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Thread: BBB spa

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    BBB spa

    I had difficulty on my first fill with the bromine going too high. I am now on my second fill and still having the same issues. I suppose I could bite the bullet and invest in a better floater, or I could try modifying my current dispenser.

    This has been so frustrating I am thinking about quitting bromine. The main reason I chose to use it was that I was under the impression that it worked better than chlorine in hot water. Also, of course, it works better in a wide pH range. HOWEVER, what with ending up testing nearly every day, I'm thinking I might as well be on chlorine with the spa!!

    IS bromine really better in hot water? I don't plan to change right away b/c my water is only a month old. I want to plan ahead for the next fill, tho, and I would appreciate any info that folks would like to share.

    TIA for any advice!
    ~Jules~

    My pool: INDOOR 13x27 rectangular fiberglass, built ~2001, BBB, TA-60 sand filter, Hayward two speed pump (1 hp/0.33 hp), 3/4 hp booster pump for solar heater
    Taylor K-2006 test

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    Bromine is more stable than chlorine in hot water but it is not necessarily better. Chlorine has a higher killing power per PPM than bromine (chlorine not associated with CYA).

    It seems that people who use bromine may fiddle with it until they get the correct dosing. Also, shocking can bring the readings higher than anticipated. Bromine can be harsh on the spa cover and pillows due to the constant off gassing of the bromine and chlorine (there is chlorine in bromine tabs).

    I run my tub on chlorine and it is easy except when you go on vacation ... leaving a tub without chlorine for 2 weeks may bring a very cloudy tub and with bromine apparently you won't have a problem. I have left my tub for about a week but shocked the tub to about 12 PPM, turned the heat down and turned my ozonator on for 24/7, ozonator may or may not helped.

    Although I don't use bleach in my tub yet, I will experiment once the warranty is over. As far as PH and alkalinity - baking soda adjusts both just fine.

    If you want more detail, I can provide it.
    My Pool:
    18 x 33 Johnny Weissmuller
    Hayward EC 50
    Hayward 1.5 2 speed pump

  3. Back To Top    #3
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    FYI, the chlorine in bromine tabs gets reduced to chloride ions as it oxidized the bromine ions into hypobromous acid so there is no hypochlorous acid (chlorine) in a bromine system that has a bromide reserve in the water.
    A 3 step bromine system is easier to maintain than either a 2 step bromine system or a chlorine system.

    In a 3 step bromine system is is pretty easy to regulate the bromine levels. Exactly how are you doing the bromine? If your bromine levels are geting too high you are either using too much shock in a 2 strep system or have the floater open too high in a 3 step system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    FYI, the chlorine in bromine tabs gets reduced to chloride ions as it oxidized the bromine ions into hypobromous acid so there is no hypochlorous acid (chlorine) in a bromine system that has a bromide reserve in the water.
    A 3 step bromine system is easier to maintain than either a 2 step bromine system or a chlorine system.

    In a 3 step bromine system is is pretty easy to regulate the bromine levels. Exactly how are you doing the bromine? If your bromine levels are geting too high you are either using too much shock in a 2 strep system or have the floater open too high in a 3 step system.
    If the FYI is for me - I know that bromine will convert chlorine to bromine. Some people are unaware that you need a bromine reserve, they just throw in the tablets into a floater and wonder what's going on. Is it not possible to get some chlorine off gassing? How quickly does chlorine get converted?

    As far as bromine systems - I don't know what a 2 step or 3 step system is. I do know that there is chlorine free bromine but that is powder.

    Quite honestly, I've used chlorine from day one and after reading the problems that most bromine users have vs chlorine users have I can't see how easy bromine is. I add chlorine after soaking and every other day if I don't soak, test the water on a weekly basis, adjust the water when needed (about every 3 weeks), clean the filters when needed and that's it. Actually, it seems that most bromine users convert to chlorine because of the bromine regulation issue.

    Putting 2 teaspoons in after soaking and letting it run for 5 minutes isn't too dificult. Opening up the cover, turning on the jets and putting 2 teaspoons of dichlor into the tub, letting it run for 5 minutes, shutting the jets and closing the cover isn't so bad when not using it.

    I guess easy is in the eye of the beholder.
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  5. Back To Top    #5
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    2 step bromine is just sodium bromide and an oxidizer, 3 stip bromine is sodium bromide, an oxidizer and tablets. Any chlorine does not last long in a bromine system if there is a bromine bank in the water so outgassing of chlorine is negligable.
    The reason a 3 step bromine system is easier than a chlorine system is because:
    1. accectpable pH range is 7.2-8.0
    2. does not require daily chlorine additions to maintain sanitizer levels.
    3. no chloramines, bromamines are active sanitizers which is why only total bromine is tested in a bromine system. The purpose of shocking a bromine system is to oxidize organics.

    Also, if you are using dichlor as a chlorine source in a chlorine system then you need to be concerend with CYA levels since overstabilization can happen very rapidly.

  6. Back To Top    #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    2 step bromine is just sodium bromide and an oxidizer, 3 stip bromine is sodium bromide, an oxidizer and tablets. Any chlorine does not last long in a bromine system if there is a bromine bank in the water so outgassing of chlorine is negligable.
    The reason a 3 step bromine system is easier than a chlorine system is because:
    1. accectpable pH range is 7.2-8.0
    2. does not require daily chlorine additions to maintain sanitizer levels.
    3. no chloramines, bromamines are active sanitizers which is why only total bromine is tested in a bromine system. The purpose of shocking a bromine system is to oxidize organics.

    Also, if you are using dichlor as a chlorine source in a chlorine system then you need to be concerend with CYA levels since overstabilization can happen very rapidly.
    But, is it safe to say that if a person adds tablets to a spa without a bromine reserve that chlorine will not be converted to bromine quickly and chlorine will off gas.

    1) This is about the range for chlorine as well. Don't know about other people's spa water but I get about 3 weeks going from 7.6 to about 7.2. It may go to 7.8 at times after adding baking soda or to 7.0 before I catch it.

    2) True, but it is a simple process to add daily or every other day. No big deal if you used the tub - put in as you dry off and close up when done. If the tub not used - put in, get a cup of coffee (or brush teeth or ...) and shut down in 5 minutes. From day one I didn't have to fiddle with tablets, too much bromine, too little bromine, put in or take out tablets or adjust a feeder - It just may be a trade off. Bromine apparently has a smell to it and we all know that water being properly maintained by chlorine does not smell - another plus.

    3) Shocking is shocking - using MPS you can use the tub in 20 minutes, kills the chloramines and organics as well. Still have to add chlorine though, I sometimes add it as I shock - same as enhanced shock. Having low CC in my tub has me adding 8 or 10 PPM chlorine not to shock for CC but to help kill any bacteria that a regular dose didn't get.

    As far as CYA, Chem Geek and I discussed that and it seems that the ONLY thing to really worry about IMO is the hot tub rash bacteria and it has to be introduced. Of course I am not saying that you run the tub adding only 1 PPM chlorine - you need more chlorine to kill the bacteria in the tub as CYA rises. Anyone who uses just 1 PPM is just asking for trouble but running for 3 months dosing to 3 or 4 PPM and shocking with chlorine to 10 PPM will keep the water bacteria free.

    Hundreds or even thousands of people use dichlor successfully. People convert over to dichlor from bromine or Baqua but very few go the other way. Proper water care is the key - not everyone knows proper water care. Even dealers sometimes don't know it. There are people who will add dichlor once a week - don't understand that; some were told that by their dealer - really don't understand that.

    Don't paint the picture that using chlorine is hard - it really is easy. Almost as easy as once people using bromine figure it out.
    My Pool:
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  7. Back To Top    #7
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    I am not saying that chlorine is hard, just that bromine is less maintenance. I see this all the time with my cusotmers and I have kept portable spas myself on both chlorine and bromine.

    As far as using bromine tabs without first adding sodium bromide on filling, this is NOT the proper way to do bromine and until enough of the tabs dissolve, which can take a few weeks, you will have a chlorine system and not a bromine system. In a properly done bromine system it is a non issue. I do not want to make this a rehash of the thread over on poolfourm. I do have experience with a lot of spas running on both chlorine and bromine and I also brought up the issue of CYA and Dichlori over on poolforum to you.

    Bottom line is this, a chlorine spa really requires daily attention, not unlike a pool on the BBB method while a 3 step bromne spa is more forgiving of a few days or a weeks worth of neglect.

    FYI, MPS does NOT destroy chloramines but rather helps prevent their formation if a residual is kept in the water by regular additions. This is right off the Dupont Oxone website. They are othe ones who developed MPS and hold the patents on it.
    It works totally different in a bromine system and serves to oxidize the bromide into hypobromous acid and shocking with MPS is really no different than shocking with chlorine. It will cause bromine levels to rise and they need to fall before you can enter the spa. There is also some evidence that high levels of MPS can cause skin irritation in both chlorine and bromine systems in certain individuals.

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    I agree that using bromine tabs without a reserve is not the proper way to do it but do you know how many people aren't told that -MANY!

    Adding bromine tabs and not having a reserve will give you a chlorine system - I agree - this is NOT a rehash. BUT you made it sound like I was giving wrong info. Spa covers and pillows can be ruined by both the chlorine if bromine is used wrongly and by bromine if used correctly. OK, I'll give you the fact that both bromine and chlorine won't happen in a properly run system.

    As far as easy - I do participate on a different forum and people use the 3 step bromine system (when advised properly) and it seems that they constantly fiddle with the the settings on the dispenser and eventually either get it or get frustrated and turn to a different method. I will even go and say that every so often someone who successfully ran a bromine system and converts to dichlor and likes dichlor better and says it easier. And sometimes the reverse is true.
    I certainly will say after giving it some thought that running on bleach would be a lot more time consuming than dichlor - but this is strict.ly my opinion.

    As far as MPS - I looked onto the website and copied the info here. There is nothing that says it doesn't destroy CC as a matter of fact it suggests to use it instead of superchlorination on a weekly basis. This would indicate to me that it is used to get rid of CC - Please point me in the right direction. My knowledge of breakout chlorination and using MPS (oxone) seems to be about the same.

    From the website:

    Easy care for clean, sparkling water. Regular oxidation with Oxone® stops problems before they start.


    Some pool owners view “shocking‿ as the corrective treatment that is used after problems occur in their pools and spas. When corrective action is required, chlorine is often used as the shocking agent. There are drawbacks to using excessive chlorine shock treatments, including foul odors; irritation and dryness of hair and skin; and bleaching and fading of the pool liners, painted surfaces, covers and bathing suits.

    To avoid these problems, a preventive program that includes products containing Oxone® and an EPA registered sanitizer keeps pool and spa water sanitized, oxidized and balanced. DuPont™ Oxone® pool and spa oxidizer helps make pool and spa care clear and simple. You’ll spend more time swimming and less time working when you follow these four easy steps to fresh, clear, sparkling water.

    Step 1. Maintain sanitizer residuals
    Step 2. Oxidize with products containing DuPont™ Oxone®
    Step 3. Test and maintain proper water balance
    Step 4. Maintain filtration equipment

    Step 1. Maintain sanitizer residuals at 1–4 ppm (parts per million) at all times to control pathogenic (disease-causing) microorganisms and protect swimmers from disease and infection. Be sure to use an EPA-registered sanitizer in your pool or spa.

    For in-ground pools with automatic chlorinators, this is usually done by keeping chlorine tablets in the chlorinator and adjusting the flow control valve on the chlorinator to maintain the desired concentration of free chlorine in the pool water.

    For in-ground pools without automatic chlorinators and for above-ground pools, this is usually done by adding granular chlorine every one to two days to maintain the desired concentration of free chlorine in the pool.

    For spas, there are several different sanitizer systems. The most common systems are based on bromine chemistry, using either bromine tablets or a two-part system using granular or liquid sodium bromide and DuPont™ Oxone® pool and spa oxidizer.

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    Step 2. Oxidize with products containing DuPont™ Oxone® every week to control the buildup of nonmicrobial contaminants, which can cause water to become dull and cloudy.

    It’s easy. Sprinkle products containing Oxone® powder over the surface of the water, slowly and uniformly, with the filter running. Because Oxone® dissolves quickly and is completely soluble in water, there’s no need to premix it. Add about two-thirds of the total dose over the deep end, following the dosage guidelines on the product label.
    Note: The first time you use DuPont™ Oxone®, add a double dose to the water to ensure maximum elimination of any waste that may have built up.

    Most people treat their pools and spas in the evening. That way, the next day, you can enjoy an early morning dip in fresh, clear, sparkling water. However, you can add products containing Oxone® to your pool or spa at any time and swim in 15–30 minutes in pleasant water — something you just can’t do with conventional chlorine shock treatments!

    Remember, weekly oxidation is a preventive measure that keeps bather waste and other nonmicrobial contaminants at a minimum while allowing pool sanitizers to work at maximum efficiency, keeping pool and spa water sparkling clear.



    Oxone® and chlorine

    1. Is Oxone® a replacement for chlorine?
    Not at all. Chlorine sanitizes the water and protects bathers against disease and infection. Using an EPA-registered sanitizer like chlorine is critical to maintaining pool water. Oxone® is an oxidizer that works in conjunction with the sanitizer to eliminate nonmicrobial contaminants and improve sanitizer efficiency.

    2. Are Oxone® and chlorine compatible in pool and spa water?
    Yes. In fact, because products containing Oxone® enhance the efficiency of sanitizing agents, they actually make chlorine work better and last longer in your pool. However, remember that you should always add each pool chemical to the water separately. Never mix any pool chemical with another one.

    3. How does Oxone® work with chlorine sanitizers?
    By eliminating nonmicrobial contaminants and reducing the demand on the sanitizer, products containing Oxone® allow the chlorine to sanitize pool water more efficiently.

    4. Is Oxone® a better oxidizer than chlorine?
    No, but it is more appropriate for pools and spas. Products containing Oxone® give you the positive benefits of oxidation without the drawbacks of high chlorine doses: reducing sanitizer efficiency, not eliminating all wastes and forming chloramines that produce unpleasant odors, irritate bathers' eyes and prevent you from using the pool for a lengthy period of time.

    Products containing Oxone® eliminate contaminants rapidly while enhancing sanitizer efficiency, produce no irritating or odor-causing compounds, and allow you to enjoy the pool again within a very short time.

    5. What are chloramines?
    Chlorine reacts readily with many contaminants in pool water (perspiration, urine and other wastes) to produce foul-smelling and eye-irritating combined-chlorine compounds. These are called chloramines.

    6. What is breakpoint chlorination?
    It is the process of using a very high dose of chlorine to destroy ammonia. It is sometimes also known as superchlorination.

    7. Does breakpoint chlorination reduce chloramines?
    Breakpoint chlorination can remove free ammonia and monochloramine from water supplies, but it has a number of drawbacks.

    First, it can be difficult to calculate the correct dosage needed to reach breakpoint accurately, and there is no guarantee that you will eliminate all combined chlorine compounds. And if you don't reach breakpoint, you may not eliminate any of them.

    Second, the presence of organic nitrogen compounds in pool and spa water will interfere with the effectiveness of the breakpoint process and limit its ability to reduce combined chlorine levels to zero.

    Third, corrective shocking with chlorine may keep you from using the pool or spa for a lengthy period of time due to excessively high chlorine levels.

    8. Does Oxone® reduce chloramines?
    Products containing Oxone® prevent chloramines from forming by oxidizing contaminants. Regular oxidizing with Oxone® keeps contaminant levels to a minimum, so the water remains clear and sparkling, allowing you to enjoy longer periods of uninterrupted swim time. And because Oxone® is chlorine-free, you don't have to worry about high chlorine levels; chloramines; unpleasant odors; or burning, irritated eyes.

    9. When should I shock with chlorine?
    If you use products containing Oxone® regularly and follow a recommended pool care program, you shouldn't need to conduct chlorine shocking at all. If your pool has been left untended for a long period of time, if chlorine residuals have not been maintained, or if algae growth is significant, it may be necessary to use chlorine shocking to kill algae and restore water quality.


    The thing I don't understand is you are touting a system that you've helped many and it works but there are many knowledgeable people who tout a different system, they have helped many people and it works. This system was "developed" by Ben over at poolforum and is being practiced by the people here. I mentioned calcium and I was told "NO NEED TO USE CALCIUM" - I got that over poolforum. Ben (his system your using) said that if a vinyl pool has a heater you need to worry about calcium - years ago; at least thats what I remember. Dichlor is not BAD, the CYA situation was discussed by Chem Geek and myself and I appreciate his time. Are you the only true and right system - of course not. I originally came here to learn and thought people here have an open mind. Apparently not! Basically it seems that there is a "do what I say" mentality by some of the people here.

    FWIW, I give out a lot of info myself and helped people with both pools and spas. I am not in the business but have learned through the years that somethings work and others don't. Most of what I learned about water care was from the poolforum but in reality the BBB is not the only system there is. Everyone who I have helped had a better experience with their pool or spa afterwards.
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  9. Back To Top    #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinny
    As far as MPS - I looked onto the website and copied the info here. There is nothing that says it doesn't destroy CC as a matter of fact it suggests to use it instead of superchlorination on a weekly basis. This would indicate to me that it is used to get rid of CC - Please point me in the right direction.
    Point 8 from the Oxone information you quoted says that Oxone prevents CC from forming in the first place. In a sense you are getting rid of CC because it is not allowed to form in the first place. The fact that they even bother to have point 8 at all tends to imply that Oxone doesn't destroy existing CC. All of which is completely consistant with what Waterbear said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinny
    The thing I don't understand is you are touting a system that you've helped many and it works but there are many knowledgeable people who tout a different system, they have helped many people and it works.
    Waterbear is simply saying that the three step bromine system requires less maintinance. Other systems work just fine and are used by many people. Each system has advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of the three step bromine system is low maintinance. The other approaches have other advantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinny
    Ben (his system your using) said that if a vinyl pool has a heater you need to worry about calcium
    I don't believe that Ben said that. Quite a few people over at poolforum.com did used to say that, thought the general opinion seems to have shifted this year to being against calcium with vinyl. Also, keep in mind that nearly everyone at poolforum is talking about swimming pools. There are issues with spas that suggest the use of calcium that don't apply to swimming pools (soft water combined with spa jets can cause foaming).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinny
    but in reality the BBB is not the only system there is
    Certainly not. I don't believe that anyone here has ever said that, or if they did several of us would have disagreed with them. In this particular thread Waterbear has been pointing out the advantages of a three step bromine system for spas, which is obviously not BBB (BBB calls for completely avoiding bromine).
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    In order for CC not to exsist you would need 10x the FC of CC in the pool, spa or whatever all the time. This is certainly not the case. Adding oxone to a pool, spa or whatever on a weekly basis is inferring that it will do essentially what a weekly chlorine shock does. They are saying to add 1 to 4 PPM of a sanitizer. Add 5 people in a spa and that 4 PPM will be gone quickly - add another 4 PPM sanitizer and the sanitizing levels are up again and down again so the CC will be up ... haven't shocked yet. They are saying shock weekly with oxone. They don't out and out say it will kill chloramines but they are advertizing it does. Not adding it daily like chlorine - how is it going to prevent anything?

    What waterbear is saying that a 3 step bromine system is easier than a dichlor system and I am saying it's not true. Is he correct or am I - I don't believe I'm wrong - neither does he! Many people on forums complain about the system - most go to dichlor and are happy. Are there people who are happy on bromine - yes there are. I did originally say that a chlorine system can't handle a 2 week vacation but bromine can.

    What Ben said or didn't say - I can't say. But the fact is it was being said there - so I wasn't wrong. Ben not being there may or may not change the way things are thought of. If the shift has happened this year they were running at least 5 years saying that. Also, when Ben was around he wasn't shy about telling you you were full od S**t if you went against something he believed is true. So if they were saying it it had to come from somewhere.

    No what I believe happened is I said how using dichlor is an easy system that works and waterbear thinks differently and wants to prove he's correct. The original poster was having issues with bromine and is wondering if he/she should stop using bromine - obviously he/she is fustrated and I answered the question that yes there is another way. The poster obviously is not having less maintenance with bromine.
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    Another thought on oxone - if chlorine is in it's propper amounts is in the water all the time reacting to organics and oxone is not, what is the oxone going to get rid of. The chlorine has done its job and the only thing left is the CC. They use the word oxidize - exactly what superchlorination does - oxidizes; superchlorination also has the benefit of adding extra chlorine into the water to kill algea or bacteria that the regular dose didn't kill.
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  12. Back To Top    #12
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    The MPS (Oxone) is in the water all the time if you add it weekly. MPS doesn't break down as quickly as chlorine does so weekly additions are sufficent to keep some in the water at all times.

    MPS reacts with amonia more quickly than chlorine does and breaks it down through a different pathway. Chlorine breaks amonia down by first having one chlorine bind to one amonia and form CC. Then, much more slowly, another chlorine and some sunlight combine with the CC to break it down further. Of, if you are in a hurry or don't have sunlight, breakpoint chlorination (the 10x thing) can break the CC down using a different route and a couple of chlorines per amonia. MPS breaks the amonia down in one step and the reaction runs more quickly that the chlorine reaction and so hardly any of the amonia will react with chlorine to produce CC when MPS is present, thus no CC (or very close to none) using MPS.

    What is "easy" varies from person to person. I find adding chlorine daily to be easy, one simple test, add some chlorine, done. Other people like to be able to ignore their spa for a week at a time. For them the three step bromine system is easy, no need to worry about it every day. Leave a chlorine spa for a week and there will most likely be significant problems. It all depends on what you care about. There are several approaches and which one you want to use depends on what you personally find "easy".
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    Please point me to where it says it lasts all week. I could not find it on their website.

    The truth is I answered the poster's question and answered it truthfully as my knowledge base allows.

    I did not say anything that might be construed as wrong or misleading IMO and the poster was and is having problems with bromine. As I see it other than myself - nobody else who posted offered help - only thing I see is people trying to discredit what I say.

    I looked and see that this poster has been having problems for a while, asked for help with bromine, got help and is still having problems. How is this constructive? How is this considered easy? I would guarantee that if the posted tried my way - he/she will not be having any problems with their water.

    My explaining to you is not constructive either but at no point do I see anyone other than myself helping this person out with the knowlege base that is here. I agree that easy is something relative but since the bromine doesn't work for this person, lets get him/her on something that does work - wouldn't you agree?

    Teaching and learning means you need to have an open mind. Please instead of attacking what I am saying help this person out. He/she has been here much longer than I and is looking for help! I helped!

    Chem geek explained things so now I understand a little more. I offered this person another way to have an "easy" spa - hopefully it will make owning a spa less stresssful.

    Think about it!
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  14. Back To Top    #14
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    Once again, Oxone does NOT break the chlorine/ammonia bond in chloramines. UV light can break the bond in an outdoor system. Oxone works by oxidizing the ammonia BEFORE it combines with the chlorine. If you do not maintain a residual of it in the water then CC will form in a chlorine system. That is why they say it must be added weekly. They also say on the wbsite that if you neglect it and the chlorine levels drop you do need to shock with chlorine (reread number 9 in the quote from the website that you posted!) You MUSt maintain FC levels when using MPS. In fact, there are test kits to test for the residual MPS for this very reason and, since it WILL test as CC on DPD and FAS-DPD tests, there are test kits to remove the interferance so you can tell if the redsidual you are seeing is actually MPS or CC. As far as being able to enter the water within minutes after using MPS, that is relatively true in a chlorine system but NOT in a bromine system since MPS will cause bromine levels to rise by oxidizing the bromide into hypobromous acid but it does not oxidize chloride ions into hypochlorous acid in a chlorine system.

    I never said that bromine was better than chlorine, only less maintendance once it was properly set up. It is much more difficult to maintain FC levels in a spa then bromine levels and the water balance paratmeters are more forgiving with bromine than chlorine. Bromine has a higher learining curve than chlorine to do it properly but if you are NOT going check the spa daily bromine is more forgiving.

    The original poster said that they were having trouble maintaining a proper bromine levels, that it was always too high. That is usually caused by overoxidizing the water (common in 2 step systems) or by not uncovering the spa when shocking until the bromine drops to normal ranges or by not having the floater adusted properly. All of them are easy fixes once you know what to do.

    I wonder if you actually maintain a 4-6 ppm FC level in your spa at all times, which is what you are supposed to do in a chlorine spa? Many people on chlorine actually have way too little chlorine in their spas and have undersanitized water.
    You have, between this thread and the one on PoolForum, had some misconceptions and have been very resistant to any other views on the proper way to maintain a spa besides your own. Spa maintenance is very different than pool maintenance because of the much smaller water volume/bather load ratio and water balance parameters are more difficult to maintain.

    This particular poster seems to have a floater that is dispensing too much bromine and we already went through this on their first thread. Perhaps if you read the older theads in this section you might have a better understanding of this poster's problem.

    You are relatively new on this forum and to suggest that you are the only one that is trying to help this poster is untrue! You might want to take some time and read through the old posts and the stickies. You mentioned calcium in a previous post. People forget the one reason that some calcium is important in a spa. Soft water will foam more readily than hard water so if the water in the spa is too soft foaming becomes more of a problem. THAT is the main reason why calcium might be important in a spa (and to a lesser extent in a vinyl pool.) There is also some evidence now that calcium is important in fiberglass pools to help prevent 'cobalt spotting'.

    Don't get me wrong, I learned a lot on Poolform and Poololutions also and was, and still am, very active on that forum. Ben did a great service by starting that forum and dispersing many of the myths the 'industry' was pushing on pool owners but even he changed his mind about some things as more data came in. I give 'high pH pools' from Poolsolutions as an example. He stated in a later thread that the main advantage migh be actually that many of the United Chemical products actually work better at a higher pH and that is why United Chemical started the high pH concept in the first place.

    You might also want to go back to PoolForum and PoolSolutions to see what Ben had to say about MPS vs. chlorine shocking.

    http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/chem_never.html
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  15. Back To Top    #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    In a 3 step bromine system is is pretty easy to regulate the bromine levels. Exactly how are you doing the bromine?
    I'm using a 3-step system. Upon refilling, I added a packet of 100% sodium bromide to establish the bromine reserve, then shocked with bleach to activate the bromine. No problems there--just had to give it a day for the bromine to drop to an appropriate level for use. I placed tablets in the dispenser (same ol' duck) and keep it in the spa.

    Generally I shock with bleach or MPS on a weekly basis. After the sanitizer levels drop to normal, I add an enzyme product. I guess I need to invest in a different floater.

    Evan, I think you were right before on a previous thread when you suggested I get a new dispenser. It seems that mine is releasing too much bromine, even on low setting. (Although I did discover last week that it had inadvertently gotten twisted and was on a higher setting. Changed it.)

    I went on a short vacation last month and was away from home for four days. When I returned home, the bromine tested at 20! The dispenser was on its lowest setting at that time.

    As I've said, the bromine just hasn't turned out to be a low-maintenance system for me. If I am testing every day, I might as well be using BBB. I am comfortable with that system and it seems to behave much more predictably.
    ~Jules~

    My pool: INDOOR 13x27 rectangular fiberglass, built ~2001, BBB, TA-60 sand filter, Hayward two speed pump (1 hp/0.33 hp), 3/4 hp booster pump for solar heater
    Taylor K-2006 test

  16. Back To Top    #16

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    New Jersey
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    25
    waterbear - I apologize about the bromine thing. I did read back and see in June you recommended to get a new feeder. This clown is worried about a $15 feeder and is having problems and didn't take advice offered to him. I assumed that this was a new post as people with a recurring problem tend to keep the thread alive at least in the forums that I usually go to.

    On to MPS - I reread the #9 and my take on it is that if you don't maintain appropriate FC levels the bacteria and algea will grow to the point to need a shock level of chlorine to kill them, kind of what happened in my pool this season. I also went onto poolforum at the link you provided and this is what I found "And even Oxone can convert chloramines to nitrates" that Ben wrote. That does indicate that Oxone does something to chloromines. He also states that at the time the Oxone product manager couldn't tell him what it did, I think that was written at least 6 years ago as I was new to the pool scene then and remember reading that after I bought MPS for my outdoor pool. 6 years is a long time, I avoided MPS originally and started going into spa forums and they talked about MPS - I tried it and is seemed to work in breaking the CC in my tub - I figured that maybe they improved MPS and what Ben originally said has changed. I still believe it works until pointed in the right direction.

    A statement was made about MPS lasting a while in water and I did ask to be pointed in the place to read up on it so I can change my mind. All I have been told by you and Jason is that it does. My take on point #8 is that it oxidizes the contaminants once you add it and nowhere does it state that it lasts in the water any length of time past the 15 to 30 minutes for being able to go back in the water. Again, please point me in the right direction.

    As far as my spa - No, I don't maintain a FC level of 4 - 6 PPM FC at all times. It is a personal spa not a public one. I add at least 3 PPM FC up to 6 PPM as a regular dose after soaking and many times I have a residue 24 hours later. How do I know it's working - my spa will turn cloudy in 48 hours after the residue is gone. I have experimented on my own tub to see if high CYA is a problem affecting proper sanitation and I can answer that it doesn't - based on personal use. I can go 3 months using dichlor, shocking every other week with dichlor and MPS every other week and my water doesn't smell of CC and my water will not turn cloudy as long as I maintain proper (for me) levels. If a lot of people go in I do try to maintain a residue of 3 PPM by adding before, during and shocking with dichlor after.

    The discussion I had with chem geek taught me some things and I am open to learning new things; I don't blindly take info I want to verify it.
    My Pool:
    18 x 33 Johnny Weissmuller
    Hayward EC 50
    Hayward 1.5 2 speed pump

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by waterbear
    The original poster said that they were having trouble maintaining a proper bromine levels, that it was always too high. That is usually caused by overoxidizing the water (common in 2 step systems) or by not uncovering the spa when shocking until the bromine drops to normal ranges . . .
    Uncover the spa when shocking?? Evan, I'd never heard that before! Really!! I actually have ended up uncovering it the day after shocking to let the sun burn off some of the bromine, but I honestly had never seen the instruction to uncover. When I shock it, it's usually at night just after we've gotten out. I close it for the night and open it in the sun the next day. Should I leave it uncovered overnight when I shock? I'll get lots of leaves and bugs, yuck! But that's why God made skimmer nets, eh?

    It's only been about a month since I refilled, so I'm not going to try it right away, but I think I will try running the spa on chlorine on the next fill. Nice thing about a spa, you can switch sanitizers much more easily than a pool!!

    Thank you for your help.
    ~Jules~

    My pool: INDOOR 13x27 rectangular fiberglass, built ~2001, BBB, TA-60 sand filter, Hayward two speed pump (1 hp/0.33 hp), 3/4 hp booster pump for solar heater
    Taylor K-2006 test

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