Pentair Intelliflo VF, Quad 80, Fiber Clear, Booster Pump

[geekgranny]

I'm not going into the issues I've been having with the Quad 80 and Fiber Clear. That's another topic to come. But I did contact Fiber Clear yesterday via email and received a pretty quick answer, which I'll be posting in a separated topic along with my ongoing discussion with them.

You all know the specs of my pool. After I cleaned the Quad cartridges with hose/brass end concentrator, and soaked in automatic dishwasher detergent my filter is back to new. Well it's less than three months old anyway.

I got it all started up late yesterday afternoon, and set my pool volume to 30 K, one turn-over a day for 23 hours and loaded the 16 Fiber Clear scoops called for. After starting all back up I had to rush off and did not return home till after dark so I didn't want to go under the deck, to visit the snakes, to take readings on pump.

Pool had been sitting for a little over 2 days, (cloudy and rain with little FC loss) with "toad choker" storms and lots of blown in leaves but not nearly as much dust as usual because of rain.

Readings just now (which go along with the values I got first few weeks before putting in two quarts of HTH Metal Control) and after backwashing a foot of water out of pool (two backwashes after the clogging began) trying to clear the gunk out of filter, with little success. Haven't had algae since I started BBB last summer.

I've reported similar readings but want to see comments out of curiosity. I'm not asking for help; just comments as everything is great. Well okay one question below. Have pump set to 30K instead of 24K because this give me just enough gpm to keep Pool Skim "sucking", skimmer and main drain pulling well, and Polaris Booster happy (I think).

Without Polaris running:

- Filter 3 psi
- 175 watts (or abouts)
- 1225 rpm (or abouts)
- 22 gpm

With Polaris running:

- Filter 2 psi
- 162 watts (or abouts)
- 1165 rpm (or abouts)
-22 gpm

Of course these numbers will change as the filter loads with our EMMENCE amounts of daily dust. The huge filter will probably need backwashing in about a week or two if I'm lucky, because of dust loading and the super fine filter of by the Fiber Clear. It does filter better than DE. Much less teenity particles in front of light, at night, even using it with the old undersized filter.

Polaris pump sounds fine and is a little quieter and much quieter than many I hear any time it runs. Some of that is it being under the deck but I stand right over it, while at pumping sation that I can tell it is quieter than many others. It is running just as speedy as before. It's always been a speedster compared to some others I've seen.

Is there any chance I'm putting undue stress on the booster pump as the flow through main pump is the same but main pump is working less? Booster pump motor new last spring.

I really like these numbers as long as it isn't prematurely aging the booster pump.



Okay

 

[geekgranny]

Observation and what do you think about this?

Last Thursday we had a general power outage for 9 hours. Quad cartridges were soaking so pumps off. Next couple of days lightening and storms so didn't get the cartridges back in for several days. FC stayed up even though we got over 6" of rain because of very little sun. I like to keep the FC on high end of target so I can go a day or two without worring about it when I am busy.

During that time, when pump not going, all power cut off to main pump and booster we had a few not too long outages but didn't affect pool.

Wednesday morning we had a dimming, not enough to totally turn everything off. Some fans, but not all, stayed on and most clocks didn't need resetting. One computer, on surge protector but not backup battery turned off. A few hours later I looked outside and realized that the Polaris Booster pump was running but the main pump wasn't. Evidently the Inteliflo VF was affected and triggered to off. BTW.... we have a whole house surge protector in main electric panel, but I do use a lot of UPSs with surge protection for sensitive electronics.

Polaris was moving normally. I went down to pad and booster sounded normal and pump was cool to touch. That cycle was for three hours (I upped the time on cycles after pool sat for several days without filtering) and it had been running almost the whole three hours without main pump on.

Pump is 5-6 ft below surface of water. Filter rises about 18" above pump and then back down 18" to the Jandy valve that goes to returns. All plumbing at pumping station is 2" but is 1.5" after valves going and coming to/from pool. Without main pump running (or any pump), I close the Jadny valve for suction lines (and close off the filter and return lines to keep filter media from coming back into pot), then when I open the pump pot lid and turn valve for water coming only from skimmer the water coming from pool has tremendous flow. It is almost as good when I close off skimmer and let water through only the main drain which is actually below the pump station because deep end is 10 ft.

So I have a lot of help from gravity moving water to the pumping station.

As mentioned, with the main pump off, and only gravity feeding the flow to booster pump, all appeared normal. Quad 80 still about 3 psi (with main pump running)as it hadn't been but a couple of days since cartridge cleaning, so not much resistance there. With only the booster pump running the filter psi was close to 0.

As the booster pump was pumping normally, moving the water to Polaris just as well, and pump was cool to touch, would this perhaps indicate I could run the booster without running main pump as long as the filter is pretty clean without much resistance? Or at least not worry about it when it happens again? It will happen again.

With the fine EZ bags on the Polaris it is doing a lot of filter of the water and, of course, keeping the water moving. Recently I've had it set on five two hour cycles per day with exceptions for like when main pump is off for a day or two.

There is a post on TFP by someone who plumbed his Polaris booster separate from the main pump with success. This is essentially what happened with booster running without main pump on. What would I notice if it was not "good" for the booster pump to run alone?

I'm going to have to think about this some more but maybe I wouldn't need the main pump running 23/7.

BTW.... The Intelliflo VF is so very quiet it's hard to tell if it is running or not by sound, especially on lower rpm, even when you go to station.

gg=alice

 

[geekgranny]

See this post where I was asking about what to program my main VF pump to feed enough water to the Polaris Booster pump.

http://www.troublefreepool.com/polaris-280-with-boster-pump-with-vf-vs-pump-t18457.html

Well,..................... In my situation with the pumping station being well below the pool booster pump appears to get plenty of flow due to gravity pulling water down to pump. No one has answered yet but I don't see how there is any problem running booster without main pump running with so much water getting to booster pump just from gravity. Booster is plumbed separate coming off of return line after water goes through filter. Filter is way oversized with clean starting pressure (all cartridges well cleaned {and soaked because of my unique dust} and using Fiber Clear) no more than 2 psi with main pump running at anything below 30 gpm. When I use gravity to feed the booster the clean filter psi registers slightly. It's hard to tell with a gauge that has a very tiny space from 0 to 2 psi.

24 K real volume but set to 34 K to get enough feed to Pool Skim. Main pump off for one hour in the a.m. to "rest" the filter media.

Feed of pressurized water to Polaris 280 just doesn't seem to be any different whether main pump is on or off. Polaris speed remains the same.

NOTE ... My filter psi is a little different here as filter has been filtering 23 hrs per day, for several days, since I cleaned and soaked the cartridges. Numbers in above post is right after cleaning cartridges and pool volume set lower.

With main pump on and booster on, filter 3 psi, 24 gpm, 174 watts, 1205 rpm, set for 34 K volume, one turnover per 23 hours. Filter Status 0% (indicates how much restriction of flow or loading of filter for alert to backwash - set by entering into VF onboard control the clean, starting psi of filter.

Booster pump taking some work off of the main pump.

With booster pump off, and only main pump running, filter 4 psi, 24 gpm, 219 watts, 1360 rpm, filter status 50%. <---- :? Wonder what gives with the "filter status" difference???? Of course there is less pressure side head becuase of more water returning via the Polaris, dedicated return, when booster pump on.

I'm going to do some calculating, when I can grab, the time to figure out some senerios for the most work done with least amount of electricty use. I need a lot of filtering and cleaner time because of the dust. I haven't tried using my vac Tracker 4X yet with the new pump. Will do some day soon.

Another thing to note is that the booster pump is always primed by being well below pool.

So................ any comments??

gg=alice

 

[Melt In The Sun]

So, with the main pump off and booster running, your filter is under suction, right? I wonder why then your gauge reads anything?

 

[geekgranny]

So, with the main pump off and booster running, your filter is under suction, right? I wonder why then your gauge reads anything?

Thanks for responding. You are the first. BTW.... I love your idea to post pictures of ourselves.

Booster is pulling water through the filter via the main drain and skimmer. I just shut off main drain took skimmer basket, with sock, out and there is suction from skimmer. So some water to boosteris coming through filter. With all pumps off there is a tremendous amount of water pressure that makes it to the pumping station via several feet above pumping station and bottom drain via weight of 10 ft of water above it (although main drain is a little bit above the pumping station). AND YES, I just found out the same gravity is feeding the the pumping station via the returns too, well, at least two of them.

Filter psi 0 when running booster only.

I just checked my only return that has a normal eyeball on it, 3/4" opening (one totally restricted, one restricted way down, one basically wide open for Pool Skim and the one with the 3/4" eyeball) and some water was being drawn into the eyeball. Don't want that :!: :!: as it will pull some debris into the Polaris wall screen. I pride myself on always having a pristine Polaris filter screen.

I just rechecked my a.o. smith, centurion booster, new spring 09, and it is 1.125 HPSF (3/4 x 1.5 SF), 3450 rpm. YIKES No wonder my Polaris is so speedy. I need to do something about that. :!: :!:

The booster pump is way oversized for what is needed. Right???? Got too look at some calculations. And put the Tracker 4X in tonight to see what speed for VF needed to run it. With Polaris cleaning, with EZ bags, that filter down less than 5 or so microns, my pool really needs at least eight hours a day running any cleaner to keep pool to my standards BUT the booster pump is using several times more electricity than my VF uses and it can't have near the efficiency as the VF, especially running at 3450 rpm.

Do most Polaris boosters have such high rpm ratings? If I can get by with much less than that I surely would like that; maybe purchase another motor and sell this one to my friend whose Polaris booster motor is failing (actually I've given orders for no one to turn it on - it's one of the worst sounding motors I've ever heard) My friend doesn't need to run her Polaris nearly as many hours as I do. She can get by with 2-3 hours a day. And I'll give her a great price and install it free. :angel:

Comments/Opinions please. Thanks, gg=alice

 

[JasonLion]

That is a fairly standard booster pump, perhaps even slightly lower SFHP than average. I've seen SFHP on a standard booster pump up to 1.65. All single speed pool pumps use 3450 RPM motors.

In your situation the only serious problem is drawing water in through the returns without any kind of filtering at all.

 

[geekgranny]

That is a fairly standard booster pump, perhaps even slightly lower SFHP than average. I've seen SFHP on a standard booster pump up to 1.65. All single speed pool pumps use 3450 RPM motors.

In your situation the only serious problem is drawing water in through the returns without any kind of filtering at all.

Right. So I won't ever consider running booster without main pump running ever again. And that's a fact. :-D If we get the slightest electrical flicker I'll go out, visit with the snakes, under the deck, and make sure the VF is running. Or if I don't want to do that I'll take all the "on" switches off the booster timer and deal with it later.

I'm not going to have time to study up for a while, but what, ballpark, amount of watts (don't need precision here, please) is the booster drawing? Ballpark, Ballpark, Ballpark. I really have very little head to contend with as evidenced by my VF readings, the very low filter psi on big filter, and some boost the pumps get from gravity, on suction side. Okay, I know it is more complicated than that but I'm just mulling options over. I'll get technical later. If I opened up the restricted returns, restricted to get more flow to Pool Skim, I might not even get a reading on the filter gauge. Is that right? I was up all night, last night, so I'm getting dingier by the minute. Starting, clean cartridge psi 2 with only main pump running? I'm expecting the ver. 2 Solar Breeze in, soon, so I might not have to use the Pool Skim during the summer.

BTW.. My hose for my booster pump, the garden type looking flexible, that goes to and from the hard plumbing is larger than my friends hose. Just slightly but it is larger. What's up with that?

And I'm going to have my electric meter checked. I'm struggling to keep it under $500 per month, and most of my neighbors don't pay that much, even with bigger houses. Most though do have better insulation, as they are newer or their additions are newer. I have the whole upstairs basically shut down, don't AC the converted garage much any more, don't heat it in winter, keep the main part of house at ~80 to 85 in summer, keep the thermostat, in winter close to 66, and it's still higher than most. AC condensers are pretty new and high SEER, new furnace downstairs, rebuilt furnace up stair when new condenser installed. And we mainly cook with microwaves. (no gas here) Just this week I shortened the on time on most of my low voltage, outdoor lights. :blah: :blah:

EDIT... I'm think this darn booster pump, running so many hours a day might be one huge contributing factor. So what am I looking at running it 8-14 hours a day, every single day as I have been doing for so many years. By eliminating that, and finding a compromise with my other cleaners and my clean pool obsession the savings could pay for an after build, auto safety cover in not too much time. Or do without a cover until we win the lottery.

Much thanks, gg=alice

 

[JasonLion]

Booster pumps vary a fair bit, but call it 1400 watts.

 

[geekgranny]

Booster pumps vary a fair bit, but call it 1400 watts.

YIKES Thanks for the bad news.

Figuring two different ways. Ballpark the booster pump accounts for about half of my total household electrical usage in lowest kW hr months and 1/3 in highest kW hr usage months.* I figured about $250/mo for the amount of hours I run the Polaris each month at our current kWh rate. That certainly accounts for the differences I and my neighbors pay per month for electricity.

* We've been using 90% CF bulbs for years, one new refrigerator, in the garage has one of the lowest electric usage ratings of American fridges. My big freezer, is not a self defrost. The heating/cooling all up graded in past three years. Had all windows in open living area upgraded to double pane/gas filled in the 90's. Several years ago I put my watt meter on several things in house and they did not have outrageous draw. I know I lose some efficiency with the warehouse vinyl flap curtain on back door but it is on the north side of house and gets no direct sun. Washer and dryer are high efficiency rated, front load, cold water and never higher than low on dryer. We don't have that much stuff to wash, etc. Downsized our electric water heater that is for bathrooms only. (The two electric, whole house, on demand heaters just couldn't push consistent temp hot to upstairs. I had two in series. When they came on each surged to 13-14 kW for a few seconds. I've been considering running the tank heater to upstairs only, keeping the temp down as we only use those bathrooms when someone visiting, and then re-plumb one of the on demands back to the downstairs bathroom. The kitchen has a 120 v 6 gallon tank, kept really hot (you learn to not leave warm watter running) and dishwasher has water heater built in. It is new from last year and pretty efficient. Laundry has a 6 gallon 120v tank. Washer never uses six gallons of hot water. And we've done a lot of other things like spot cool DH's "command center" when he is home and office/bedroom only at night if needed. There's a small fan at door jam leading to down bath and office that pulls enough of main house cool air in most of time. (no duct work to that area from main AC/heating down stairs.) So we've done a lot. In past three years I've gotten the monthly electric bill down $300 to $500 a month. We have much less income now so it is becoming more and more important to get some frivolous expenses down. Our gas royalties, retirement, have gone down by 2/3 in past year and a half and that really hurts. DH's business expenses have increased $2K a month now that he is flying out of town every week to work. So we have to find a lot of ways to cut down. Oh, and, I'm slowly replacing the halogen bulbs in outside, low voltage, lighting with LEDs going from 20-50 watts down to 3-5 watts each. With a lot of research, and trial and error, I have found some warm white replacement LED bulbs, MR-16, wedge, etc., that almost match the warmth of the halogen and iridescent and most are as bright or brighter than what they replaced. It's kind of a science though, replacing them, as the transformers need a certain amount of draw on them or the LED bulbs will blink. Have much more work over the summer to get all that redone. The LEDs aren't cheap, though.

My last three electric bills were under $500. Two of those months were running the Polaris booster at least 10 hours a day. Electric meter will probably be read tomorrow so this is a good time to use the vac Tracker 4X for a month, instead of Polaris, to look at difference. I can use last years electric bill to make adjustment for booster use versus non booster use. The bill has a chart showing same month usage for previous year, previous month current year, and average daily temperature for each of those months.

For people who only use their booster pumps a few hours a week this won't be nearly as important.

I, of course, will be upping the flow rate on VF some, to get adequate suction, but hopefully it won't be too much. Even running VF at ~200 watts, with main drain open the skimmer has pretty strong suction.

There are several things that will need to be taken into account. One is that I'll be backwashing more, as the dust and silt will be going into the filter instead of the EZ Polaris bags but I won't have the cost of the EZ bags which is between $30-$40 per month, getting them at the lowest cost I've found, and there is the cost of the additional Fiber Clear per month.

I'm off to get loaded up on Sunscreen and bug repellent and will report in later after doing much needed chores and vac cleaner into pool.

gg=alice