Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 43

Thread: Help?

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Help?

    Hello All,

    I am new to the board and have been reading through the amazing wealth of information found here. Simply amazing!

    Let me tell you about my problem. We have an 8,000 gallon fiberglass pool. One day we noticed that the walls and floor of the pool had a yellowish ting to them yet the water was still clear. Being ignorant to real pool care since this is the first home we've ever rent with a pool we super shocked the pool. The ting never lifted so I figured this was a different animal than algae.

    I started searching and searching for answers and came upon this site. Eventually I learned about iron. I did the vitamin C test and sure enough the stains started lifting. So I decided to try some ascorbic acid. I read about lowering the chlorine levels and the ph into the proper levels for treatment with the ascorbic acid.

    So I treated the pool with the ascorbic acid and the stain lifted and the pool was a beautiful Caribbean blue for about an hour. Soon after the pool turned dark green color. I thought this was the iron coming off the walls and now the particles were floating in the water. So I ran the pool for the recommended 48 hours and kept cleaning the pool filter every 12 hours or so. Eventually the water cleared albeit somewhat of a murky clear but I was happy and figured that would filter out with time.

    I read about adding bleach slowly because you do not want to shock after treatment with ascorbic acid. First I tackled raising ph and alkalinity and then proceeded to attempt to raise the chlorine level to around 3ppm. I added the recommended amount of bleach to raise the levels. At first when I tested the level was around 3ppm, about 2 hours later the levels dropped back to 0. This was an ongoing battle for about a week.

    I was getting increasingly frustrated. I took the water to get tested at a local Pinch-A-Penny and they gave me these readings.

    FAC 0
    TAC 0
    pH 7.4
    TA 80
    Calcium Hardness 250
    CYA 100

    The CYA really blew my mind being that high, which I knew was not good. Could that be why the chlorine was not holding?

    Anyway, throughout this battle we resisted calling the landlord because we knew he would just take and get the water tested then say shock the pool. That is his answer for everything.

    So eventually frustration mounted and we called him he came over took the water to be tested came back with the same results. He said there is no chlorine. We said that yes this is true, we were battling Iron and you cannot have shock the pool for 2 weeks while treating. He said well the pool store says add chlorine and shock and that's what were going to do. So he put the inline chlorinator to 5 but did not shock since he said we had to buy the liquid chlorine.

    Now the pool has run for 2 days on its normal 8 hour cycle and the **** yellowish stains are back clinging to the wall.

    I realize the CYA is high being 100 and I know that draining the pool is how you correct that.

    Even though I know that is too high the pool store feels it is within normal range and thus so does the landlord. But now thanks to his insistance on bumping the chlorine the pool walls are now the beautiful yellowish ting again.

    Please, can anyone offer any suggestions or help?
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  2. Back To Top    #2
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,887

    Re: Help?

    Welcome to TFP!

    It sounds like you were not using enough (or any?) sequestrant. It is critical to have enough sequestrant added to the water to grab hold of the metals as the come off the pool and into the water. Even with sequestrant you can sometimes have trouble should the FC level go up too quickly in the first week, but there are at least reasonable odds of success.

    Your high CYA level is going to be a problem, but I am not sure that it has been a problem just yet. After an ascorbic acid treatment, there can be a fair amount of ascorbic acid still in the water. For the first while, any chlorine you add will go to destroying the ascorbic acid. Only after the ascorbic acid is consumed can the FC level start to build up to normal levels.

    On the other hand, it is perfectly possible that you have gotten algae. Fighting algae with high CYA levels is quite a project. It is generally much simpler to replace some water to get the CYA level down to a more reasonable level than it is to battle algae with high CYA levels. The CYA level could actually be much higher than 100. Most of the common CYA tests only read CYA levels up to 100, and will report higher levels as if they were 100.

    There is some chance that if you lower the PH to 7.0 and add sequestrant that the stains will lift, but I don't think that is likely. Most likely, the only way to get the stains off at this point is to clean up the pool, including getting rid of the algae if there is any, and then do the ascorbic acid treatment over again from the start.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Re: Help?

    I forgot to include that after adding the ascorbic acid I did use the required dosage of metal free. Everything lifted and cleared, a week later when I went to start adding chlorine again the yellowish ting came back and I used Jacks Magic Blue and Jacks Magic Colbat and Iron. Everything cleared again till this weekend when the landlord decided to have the water tested and put the inline chlorinator on 5. I had it on zero knowing that chlorine needed to stay low. Basically this seems to been a viscous cycle.

    I tell the landlord the CYA is too high at 100 and you need to drain some to lower that. He says I'll test the water and Pinch-A-Penny claims on their testing results sheet that a level of 100 is within range for CYA so he ignores that and since they said the chlorine is at 0 he shocks the pool and now the yellowish ting is back on the walls and floor of the pool. All that money spent on stuff to get rid of Iron wasted.
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  4. Back To Top    #4
    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    SWSuburban Chicago, IL
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: Help?

    Will the landlord know if you do a series of small drains and refills to lower the CYA level? Does he come often to check the pool - could you turn off the chlorinator and just use bleach?
    What does your lease specify?
    Have you mentioned the website to him? Tell him CYA is banned in public pools in New York State, maybe that will get him thinking....
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Re: Help?

    I did a small drain on Saturday and then we got two inches of rain. I turned the chlorinator off again. He also reset my timer which I had going from 8am-4pm. He turned it to 10am-4pm. And then he pointed all the returns to straight down, cause the pool people told him that is where they need to be during the summer.

    I figure I am going to follow his instructions. He said shock the pool, so I shocked it last night with the 3/4 of a gallon that the pool store called for. The chlorine held through the night which hasn't happened in weeks. Basically what I am dealing with is someone who won't believe what you say until they see it for themselves.

    I just received my taylor k-2006 test kit yesterday. I did the CYA test and the black dot disappeared I guess around what would be 125-130 on the tube.

    We live in Florida so I am not sure if he will even be moved by the thought of New York law. Basically he does whatever the pool store tells him to do.

    I will post updated numbers tonight once I get home. The last time I tried to add by using bleach the chlorine level would not hold and the pool walls turned that yellowish tinge.

    What could that tinge be? Yesterday when I came home it was turning that color again around the return where he pointed it straight down. This morning after shocking last night it does not look noticeably different. Usually it looks worst after adding increased amounts of chlorine.

    Any help or suggestions are always appreciated. I am learning more and more about proper pool care everyday through this site. Thank you guys!
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  6. Back To Top    #6
    poolgirl22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Stephens City, VA
    Posts
    595

    Re: Help?

    Not to be nosy..but does he buy all the chemicals and pay for the maintenance of the pool? If he does it may be hard to fight him. If you are already paying for the chemicals then you should be the one managing it. If he wants to do it his way then he pays. If you want to do it your way, then you pay. Time to play 'let's make a deal'.

    Since we know the TFP/BBB method is less expensive overall, ask him if he will let you manage the chemicals this year your way...turn over all pool maintenance to you. After all, you are the one swimming in the darn thing..There really can be only one chemical chief....In return, you will take on the expense of the chemicals for a specified time period. At the end of a specified time frame, you discuss which works better, your way or his and renegotiate the terms. If you show him your way is better, he's not having to fool with the pool and he's likely a happy landlord. Keep all test results. Go to the pool store periodically and get tested and see what they say..my pool store jokingly accused me of bringing someone else's pool water in because there was such a difference in ONE DAY's time...true story.

    If your way works (which it will), then you are in a good position to ask for a rent credit in exchange for maintaining the pool 'for him'.

    It's worth a shot to get control of that which you have to look at every day. People do this kind of thing around here when they do improvements while living in rentals. Landlords are happy they're improving to property and they didn't have to do the work.

    Good luck.
    Backyard pool-less, but used to be.....
    16,100 gallon, 18x38 3.5 ft deep oval AG, Vinyl, Sand, 1hp pump
    http://www.poolservicestech.com Liquidator
    http://www.poolcalculator.com/
    http://www.tftestkits.net TFT100 test kit

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cupertino, CA
    Posts
    1,966

    Re: Help?

    The CYA test, as you know, gets really hard to figure out above 100. You can try this: In a bowl or large cup, measure out equal parts pool water and tap water. Stir thoroughly. Test the CYA of the resulting mixture, and double the answer you get. This will double the range of the test (because tap water has no CYA) and give you a better idea of what you're contending with (could even be CYA 200).
    --paulr
    BBB "Intermediate Swimmer"
    IG plaster pool 18.5K gal, Hayward Pro-Grid DE filter, 3/4 HP Hydramax II; Polaris 380, 3/4 HP booster
    AG spa 325 gal, probably Sundance of some kind
    Water testing instructions on one page

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Re: Help?

    I control the chemicals. I only asked for his help because I could not figure out why the chlorine would not hold. I should have figured his answer was to follow whatever the pool store told him.

    When I cleared the iron away, I could not get any chlorine to hold using bleach. I went through 4 128oz bottles where the chlorine level would rise for a short period of time, only to drop again. When I treated for Iron I waited at least 3-4 days in between trying to introduce chlorine again.

    Now it looks like since he turned the chlorinator on, the stains have reappeared. I don't know what to do. I am tired of spending money on Iron treatments. I just want to swim in the darn pool. That was the allure to renting the place.
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  9. Back To Top    #9
    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    SWSuburban Chicago, IL
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: Help?

    When you do the AA treatment - it causes an increase FC demand for the first couple of weeks, this is normal and why you couldn't get the chlorine to hold. You just have to keep adding small amounts at a time until it does. As you know, you should not shock the pool for the first few weeks after doing the AA treatment. What's happened is the iron has redeposited on the pool wall, the AA treatment would have to be repeated to remove the stains, and the method for raising chlorine followed to the letter to prevent a repeat. Clearly he's not going to do that.

    Ideally the CYA needs to come down to 30-40 if he wants to continue with tabs - and then the FC still needs monitoring and supplementing with bleach if the tablets can't keep the FC /CYA ratio - overtime they'll cause the CYA to rise which necessitates a higher FC level.

    Honestly, if this were not my pool I wouldn't worry about the staining. Just maintain the proper chlorine level according to the CYA chart - stains and the color of the water are purely asthetic - is it worth spending your own money on it if he doesn't even care? Keeping it sanitary is one thing - the asthetic stuff is his problem, KWIM?
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Re: Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom
    When you do the AA treatment - it causes an increase FC demand for the first couple of weeks, this is normal and why you couldn't get the chlorine to hold. You just have to keep adding small amounts at a time until it does. As you know, you should not shock the pool for the first few weeks after doing the AA treatment. What's happened is the iron has redeposited on the pool wall, the AA treatment would have to be repeated to remove the stains, and the method for raising chlorine followed to the letter to prevent a repeat. Clearly he's not going to do that.

    Ideally the CYA needs to come down to 30-40 if he wants to continue with tabs - and then the FC still needs monitoring and supplementing with bleach if the tablets can't keep the FC /CYA ratio - overtime they'll cause the CYA to rise which necessitates a higher FC level.

    Honestly, if this were not my pool I wouldn't worry about the staining. Just maintain the proper chlorine level according to the CYA chart - stains and the color of the water are purely asthetic - is it worth spending your own money on it if he doesn't even care? Keeping it sanitary is one thing - the asthetic stuff is his problem, KWIM?

    I understand what you are saying. It is just that I was raised to take care of things that are in my possession. I am just afraid that once it is time to leave here, I will be held responsible. What I find very interesting is his pool store and their test believe that a CYA of 100 is acceptable. Everything I have read says this is not true. Does anyone have any experience with a partial drain and fill and how much that might cost?
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cupertino, CA
    Posts
    1,966

    Re: Help?

    Quote Originally Posted by deerpack2003
    Does anyone have any experience with a partial drain and fill and how much that might cost?
    That mostly depends on water rates and restrictions where you are, which is probably Florida? As a renter probably your landlord pays the water bill, but you can surely find out what the water rates are anyway. And with your small 8000 gallon pool, it won't be a huge hit.
    --paulr
    BBB "Intermediate Swimmer"
    IG plaster pool 18.5K gal, Hayward Pro-Grid DE filter, 3/4 HP Hydramax II; Polaris 380, 3/4 HP booster
    AG spa 325 gal, probably Sundance of some kind
    Water testing instructions on one page

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Re: Help?

    All utility bills are paid by us.
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  13. Back To Top    #13

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cupertino, CA
    Posts
    1,966

    Re: Help?

    Water company probably charges by 100 cubic foot "units" which are about 750 gallons each. You should check the rules in your area, where I am a drain has to be into the sewer (not the ground, not the street, not the storm drain). Also probably don't want to drain more than about halfway at once, because groundwater can actually make the pool "float" and that would be a VERY BIG problem.
    --paulr
    BBB "Intermediate Swimmer"
    IG plaster pool 18.5K gal, Hayward Pro-Grid DE filter, 3/4 HP Hydramax II; Polaris 380, 3/4 HP booster
    AG spa 325 gal, probably Sundance of some kind
    Water testing instructions on one page

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Re: Help?

    On our bill they charge us by the 10's of gallons.
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  15. Back To Top    #15

    Re: Help?

    Ok, so here are my numbers from testing the pool this afternoon.

    FAC 0
    TAC 0

    I shocked the pool last night and had a reading of FAC 6.4ppm. Now I am back to zero.

    pH 7.0
    Alkalinity 80
    Calcium Hardness 250
    CYA 120 I did the half and half method that was described earlier in the thread.

    Also, the pool walls are starting to have that discoloration again. It is almost like a light khaki color.

    Any comments, suggestions or anything would be amazing.

    Thank you.
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  16. Back To Top    #16
    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    SWSuburban Chicago, IL
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: Help?

    Well, you need chlorine - I would add enough to reach 14 - do you know how to use the pool calculator? Your "min" level is about 9 - assuming you don't refill. Target 12-14 each night and keep it above 9 at all times to prevent algae. Should you have algae develop or need to shock the pool - you will have an extremely difficult situation on your hands with CYA that high.

    As for the staining, honestly that's a losing battle if he's not going to understand the chemistry. He can't hold you responsible if he won't let you fix the problem.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Help?

    Question, since the pool is fiberglass, can I drain it halfway? The pool is 8000 gallons. Would draining 1/4 be harmful?
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cupertino, CA
    Posts
    1,966

    Re: Help?

    The short answer is, draining 1/4 should not be harmful. If you have shallow/deep ends then if you leave a foot or so in the shallow end then I think it would be okay, whatever fraction of the pool that is.

    Longer answer: The fundamental question is, how far down is the water table. If it's not far down, then draining can lower your water level below the groundwater level, and in effect turns the pool into a boat. It can literally float, pushing up out of the ground with dire consequences for everything connected to it (primarily the plumbing). Now, obviously when they installed the pool in the first place, they dug a big hole and sat the fiberglass shell down into it; and in areas where there is a high water table, there should be a relief valve down at the bottom that will let groundwater in if the water level in the pool gets too low. But still, you'd rather not risk any of that, especially as it's not actually your pool.
    --paulr
    BBB "Intermediate Swimmer"
    IG plaster pool 18.5K gal, Hayward Pro-Grid DE filter, 3/4 HP Hydramax II; Polaris 380, 3/4 HP booster
    AG spa 325 gal, probably Sundance of some kind
    Water testing instructions on one page

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Help?

    Paul,

    Thank you for the reply. The pool goes 4ft in the shallow to 6ft in the deep end. I hate having to fix something that is not my fault. But with the CYA being around 120 this is the only solution.
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Re: Help?

    I think the worst case scenario is about to unfold. I believe there is now algae in the pool. I just treated it again for iron. With the CYA level so high and the Iron treatment, what do I do? Help??
    28,000 Gallon Inground Pool
    Cartridge Filters (4)
    Chlorine System

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •