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Thread: equipment...

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
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    equipment...

    Well, wife and I were talking and we have some extra cash laying around and figure while we got it we should put it towards what we use 7 months out of the year, before we spend it on something else (like maybe a new truck to replace my 192k mile 8 year old pick up ). We would really like to install a heater and automagic remote control LCD screen thingy for our pool. I have a new filter and pump. But am not happy with the pump so I want to replace it with an intelliflow one. Filter is great though. we also agree its time to go salt water. But im getting mixed answers on whether to go gas or electric for my heater, and blank stares when I ask for the digital LCD screen system so I can control it all from the house.

    I dont have natural gas run. But the city can run lines from the street. Im finding that gas heaters tend to be cheaper. but am worried about how much it would cost me in natural gas every month. If I did gas I would also have them run me a line for a gas stove and fireplace while their at it. But Electric is more expensive to buy, but could be installed by my electrician. And while he is running a 220V for a heater. Might as well have him run a 220 for a new hot tub as well.


    But IM getting very confused when I ask pool stores for the things I want. What is this magic automatic controlly thing for your pool called? How hard is it to have it added to our current set up? It would be great to just touch a button someware inside the house and have the heater turn on. AS well as change the pump speed. Plus im a nerd and like gadgets. But I have found out that bigger is better as far as heaters go. Whats the biggest gas and electric heater I can get? I want a big one as that way it will heat up quicker and wont work as hard to heat it up and then should (if my logic is correct) keep the monthly costs down. Solar is out since our house has lots of sky lights and trees. No place to add one that is free of sky lights, or has sun for more than 3 hours a day. I notice some electric models include pool Cooling. Which would be very nice in the summer when the pool peaks 96 degrees and becomes very unpleasant, But are only 116k BTU compared to 400k BTU of the gas model, and the gas model is much cheaper. Thanks for the help guys.
    John
    15x30 inground vinyl pool. 1 hp hayward pump, 200 pound sand filter. 8 feet deep in the deepest part. 3 feet in the shallow. 4 returns 2 in the steps, 1 in the shallow end, and one in the deep, 1 skimmer (wish there were 2) and one Main drain. Only thing I wish is I had a more powerful pump, The jets never really put out alot of power. No frills pool. Has a light and thats about it as far as specail features go. BBB user ever since I opened this season thanks to TPF

  2. Back To Top    #2
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: equipment...

    The break even between a natural gas heater and a heat pump depends on what you are charged for electricity vs natural gas. If the cost per therm is more than 4.7 x the cost per kwh, then a heat pump makes more sense. Otherwise, gas may make more sense. This assumes a COP of 5 and a NG heater efficiency of 80%.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: equipment...

    The remote control is part of what is called an automation system, or a pool control system, for example the Hayward ProLogic or Pentair IntelliTouch (just to name two of many choices). If you talk to a builder, instead of a pool store, they should know exactly what you are talking about.

    Heat pumps are a great deal many places, but not so good in places with very high electric rates (such as much of California). Where I am on the east coast a heat pump pays back the extra costs very quickly. Either way, the cost to heat the pool for more than a couple of weeks on either end of the season can be substantial.

    It takes a huge amount of heat to heat the pool. Even with a very large pool heater (about four times the size of most whole house furnaces) it will take hours to heat the pool. If you use the pool more than a day or two a week you will want to keep it heated (and covered) all the time. That is part of why the smaller heat pumps make sense. Large gas heaters are commonly used to heat up a spa really quickly, but they won't heat an entire pool at all quickly.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: equipment...

    What is your electric rate as well as your gas rate per therm? That would give us an idea wha makes sense for you.
    The smaller BTU ratings for heat pumps will naturally take longer to heat thte pool, but generally people with heat pumps will maintain the pool at a set temperature 24/7 so the initial heat up is only done once per season. My heating season runs from opening in early May thrru thr middle of june, and then from the middle of august thru close around Columbus day. I probably see an extra $120 a month, on average, in electric charges during heating season. But a solar cover is a must. For comparison, my electric rate is around 9 cents per kW for generation charges and around 3 cents for distribution so a total of 12 cents per kW. Pretty cheap compared to the west coast. I dont have NG where i live, but its pretty cheap too at 65 cents per therm.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: equipment...

    gas here is around a buck a therm in the summer and a buck fifty in the winter (i guess since people are heating their homes and using it more). Electricty how ever is 9 cents a KW. Peak times in the summer is 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. What I like about gas is no peak time ****, and its its hotter. Would that not mean a warmer pool quicker? Also that it runs in -10 as well as it runs in 110. If we heat the pool I want to keep it open year round. There are days in the winter where its 75-80 and warm enough to use a pool. But the water is cold. My heaters are electric (2 for the house). My house uses an energy management system and this saves me on average 50 bucks a month. So I could tye in the pool heater to this if it was electric which would save me a bit of money there. So yes for the first couple days of heat up it would be expensive, but once up to temp. Its just maintaing it much like a house. Keep it at 85 degrees or so. Is there anything I can use thats safer than a solar cover? I have a big worry of someone (k9 or human) falling in and getting trapped in the cover. I would be willing to put in an auto cover. But this is only if there is no other option as I know its rather expensive. Is it possible on an existing pool? We plan to stay in this house for ever, so i have no problem putting money in to something we use. But only if we have exhausted all other options.
    John
    15x30 inground vinyl pool. 1 hp hayward pump, 200 pound sand filter. 8 feet deep in the deepest part. 3 feet in the shallow. 4 returns 2 in the steps, 1 in the shallow end, and one in the deep, 1 skimmer (wish there were 2) and one Main drain. Only thing I wish is I had a more powerful pump, The jets never really put out alot of power. No frills pool. Has a light and thats about it as far as specail features go. BBB user ever since I opened this season thanks to TPF

  6. Back To Top    #6

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    Re: equipment...

    Quote Originally Posted by gman
    If we heat the pool I want to keep it open year round. .
    That answers your question right there. If you want to be able to heat it year round, then NG is the only option. A heat pump will not work once the air temp gets below 45-50 or so.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: equipment...

    Just keep in mind that a natural gas heater is going to be quite expensive to keep running all winter, probably a couple of hundred dollars a month in the winter (with a cover), quite a bit more without a cover. A heat pump will cost about 1/3 that much as long as the outside temperature averages above about 50 degrees. Heat pumps don't do very well when the air temperature gets below that.

    Yes, a 400,000 BTU gas heater will heat the pool more quickly than a 140,000 BTU heat pump. The gas heater might get 2 degrees an hour, while the heat pump might get 0.7 degrees an hour. If your pool starts at 60 degrees, you are still talking 10+ hours for the gas heater to heat the pool. If you are planing that far in advance, it is often easy enough to turn on the heat pump two or three days in advance. You get a dramatic energy cost savings with the heat pump if you are willing to plan a little further in advance (assuming the air is reasonable warm).
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: equipment...

    Were averaging about 60 degrees at night and 75 in the day right now. I say average as every now and then we get a 50 degree day. But thats rare this time of year. So if I went with an auto cover and just keep the pool open year round and only heat march through october (after october weather becomes to unpredictable). So maybe electric is the way to go as far as energy usage is concerned. To heat my pool to 85 from 60 degrees. How much money would it cost with a cover each month for gas or electric roughly? If I got the automatic pool cover which has insolation value (I think the company told me r45) And just maintained 85 degrees. Would electric be better then?
    John
    15x30 inground vinyl pool. 1 hp hayward pump, 200 pound sand filter. 8 feet deep in the deepest part. 3 feet in the shallow. 4 returns 2 in the steps, 1 in the shallow end, and one in the deep, 1 skimmer (wish there were 2) and one Main drain. Only thing I wish is I had a more powerful pump, The jets never really put out alot of power. No frills pool. Has a light and thats about it as far as specail features go. BBB user ever since I opened this season thanks to TPF

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Re: equipment...

    The main reason I can't/won't use a solar cover is just what your concern is; k9 and human and other critters getting trapped and drowning. Although the dogs get put up in the evening from the back/pool yard mistakes do happen. I've always had double gates all around my houses, two gates or doors always closed between certain dogs and/or dog yards, but people all too frequently don't comply with the rules or get careless. In our case it has usually resulted in dog fights but could easily be a drowning.

    The other reason for out here is the extreme winds we frequently have. I don't know if cats/tiny dogs/squirrels/raccoons/opossums etc., would have issues with the solar cover though. A friend of mine has regular visits from bobcats drinking from her pool. Hopefully other will report.

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  10. Back To Top    #10

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    Re: equipment...

    Quote Originally Posted by gman
    So yes for the first couple days of heat up it would be expensive, but once up to temp. Its just maintaing it much like a house. Keep it at 85 degrees or so.
    It's actually not that simple. Heating the air in your house by 10 degrees on a cold morning doesnt use that much energy as compared to heating water.

    For you pool, I'm assuming its around 16000 gallons given your dimensions in your sig. Using that, a 10 degree rise in temp would require 1.3 million BTUs. At a buck a therm, a 400,000 BTU heater would cost around $20 per day to maintain. If you ran the heater 24/7, even with cover, you might lose only 10 degrees in a 24 hour period. So, that $10 day x 30 days, thats $300 a month.

    If you didnt keep it warm 24/7, say you saw a forcast for a nice day 3 days away and you wanted to swim that day. Your pool is now 60 degrees. A 25 degree rise would take 8+ hours. With a 400,000 BTU heater, it will use about 1 therm per hour per 100,000 BTU. So, 4 therms per hour times 8 hours times $1.50 per therem is around $48. Of course the temperature delta scould vary, and the heaters ar about 85% efficient, so the cost can vary. But, you get the idea. Keeping a pool open year round is a pretty expensive proposition.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

  11. Back To Top    #11

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    Re: equipment...

    Ok, for a heat pump. Lets say it puts out on average 100,000 BTU. That can vary depending on the ambient temp, humidity etc. As a ballpark, they will use about 7 kW per hour. At 9 cents per kW thats ~0.63 cents per hour. That same 25 degree rise in water temp will still take 2.6 million btu, but a 100,000 btu heater will take 22 hours and $20 to heat to 85. Takes longer, but costs about half. But, keep in mind, if the air temp is about 60, you might only get 80,000 BTU per hour out of a heat pump.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

  12. Back To Top    #12

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    Re: equipment...

    ok good info guys. Thanks. It would be one **** of a shock to open my gas bill and see I owe 350 bucks.
    John
    15x30 inground vinyl pool. 1 hp hayward pump, 200 pound sand filter. 8 feet deep in the deepest part. 3 feet in the shallow. 4 returns 2 in the steps, 1 in the shallow end, and one in the deep, 1 skimmer (wish there were 2) and one Main drain. Only thing I wish is I had a more powerful pump, The jets never really put out alot of power. No frills pool. Has a light and thats about it as far as specail features go. BBB user ever since I opened this season thanks to TPF

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