Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: I'm still not seeing the bottom

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,358

    I'm still not seeing the bottom

    I don't see any reason to start a new post my questionis exactly pertaining to the issue. Please correct me if needed.
    You should ask questions in your own topic, not in someone else's topic. Otherwise answers to your question and answers to the original posters question can get mixed up and create confusion. Thanks JasonLion

    My new filter running since Friday, and two 1 micron Slimebags are not clearing the extremely fine stuff from the pool. I backwashed yesterday. I'm still not seeing the bottom. All chems are right on and there is no live or dead algae. The "particles" come out of the pores in huge quantities when I lift the SlimeBags up a bit. I've promised a video of this but I had cleaned the SlimeBags and I'm just now getting one "loaded" using one submersible pump in addition to 24/7 filtering.

    Is it time for additional aids??

    Pentair Quad 80 using cellulose media. Sequestrate in use since AA treatment in fall.

    Advice/instructions please. I certainly don't want to foul the new DE filter and its four cartridges.

    Thanks, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  2. Back To Top    #2
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,887

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Seeing some very fine debris leaking through a slime bag is normal, especially if it happens while you are handling the bag.

    What does the water look like, in as much detail as possible: color, opaqueness, etc?
    Please post a full set of water test results.
    Has the water improved over the last several days even slightly?
    How much stuff are the slime bags catching and what does it look like?
    Why do you say there is no algae?
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Central NJ
    Posts
    3,192

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Alice, What speeds are you running the new pump at and for how long?

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Seeing some very fine debris leaking through a slime bag is normal, especially if it happens while you are handling the bag.

    Pics coming in a few minutes.

    I understand but it is an immense amount when it is barely moved. When I removed the Backwash Slime bag, I had to struggle with it for about 10 minutes because it was so heavy with water and substance. The water is really slow to drain from it and it is a huge bag.

    After last nights filtering the pool has cleared a lot. I can see the bottom drain well now. I took pics last night of the cloud. Posted below. Just got back from "delivering" DH to airport. I didn't look at pool before leaving. Added a couple of hours after starting this post.......... the pool is a gorgeous deep blue now that the sun is hitting it from an angle. Sparkle is beginning to happen.

    What does the water look like, in as much detail as possible: color, opaqueness, etc?

    Color is beautiful blue, no hint of green or aqua. It's the fine cloudiness. See pics below. The scale has been continuing to lift all winter after AA treatment; especially evident on steps. I fought keeping the CH up since I switched to BBB last summer, because of so much backwashing and splash out. Even with all the water replaced or let out due to rain the 220 CH from yesterday's testing is higher than I could keep up during during summer and fall. I think the main issue is the calcium coming off surfaces. The cloudiness really picked up when I started using the Aquabot, which really, really scrubs floor and walls, much more than the Vero 300 ever did. Vero couldn't make it up the walls.

    Please post a full set of water test results.

    I started adding CYA a few days before new pump and filter installed 6 days ago. CYA was 20 prior to addition.

    (I've been moving things around and I've misplaced my full TF-100 kit. I have separate, mostly Taylor reagents, that I purchased prior to ordering the kit and a separate FAS/DPD Chlorine Drop test, and have been waiting to use them up before breaking into kit; when I find it. )

    FC - 8 @ 75 F
    pH - 7.5 @ 75
    TA - 60 @ 53
    CH - 250 @ 53
    CYA - 60 @ 53
    Temp 53 F pool --- 75 F, brought inside and sat sample cup in hot water

    This has been one of the coldest, longest, cloudiest, rainiest winters on record. After AA treatment kept pH right at 7.2. Sequestrate all winter. Cl never tested < 2 all winter with chlorine additions when needed. Very low Cl demand all winter.


    Has the water improved over the last several days even slightly?

    Yes, dramatically as of this morning compared to last night.

    How much stuff are the slime bags catching and what does it look like?

    It is a mix of light tan to white with some brown depending on whether I set the submercible pump on bottom of shallow end, where most of the silt settles or hang from side of deep end. Most much lighter than our normal silt. It's hard to judge just how much. Two pumps, two Slime Bags .

    Why do you say there is no algae?

    I've been keeping close watch on pH and Cl. Water temp just crossed into 50's a little over a week ago. It's been in 30's and sometimes in low 40's until just recently. Never had any algae all summer, fall, when did AA, or after. I would be shocked if there was any algae growing in there.

    In Jan we had our "Big Freeze" with an inch of ice on pool. Water balance good prior to that and after. Even ran Vero 300 or Aquabot under the ice after I could chip a hole in ice. After I drained the pumping station for "Big Freeze" I kept water constantly circulating with submercible pumps, one on each end of pool and only stopped them when I ran the Vero 300 or Aquabot for at least 10 hours, several days a week. I went through at least 4 of the Aquabot "Nasty Bags", almost as fine as the Aquabot fine bag, and the Aquabot fine bag each cleaning cycle. Dip rinsed, three buckets, and then washed on cold gentle, a batch after each cleaning cycle. The Nasty Bags are so cheap I have a bunch of them.

    No organics allowed to sit in pool, skimmer sock, Pool Skim X 2 collection bags, for much over a couple of hours except at night; constant emptying through out the day, cleaners keeping leaves up during day when needed and most nights, all night during leaf falling time. Raised Cl levels up to shock level several times when I was in a hurry and didn't measure or use Pool Calculator. This was weeks after bringing Cl up slowly after AA treatment. Polyquat 60 (type) algae control, in abundance, during and after AA treatment. Chlorine demand low, late fall and all winter.

    It is highly unlikely anything is growing in it.

    I have been playing with the pump some. "Favorite Most Trusted Pool Guy" (he told me to leave it alone, don't use any cleaners, let it clear before doing anything other than backwashing if needed) had pump set to 30 K 1 cycle a day but for only one 12 hr period. Clean filter pressure 7 psi. I bumped it up to 2 cycles per 24 hr period for a couple of days, 25 K. Then I set it on 4 cycles per day, 24 hour, 20 K which gave me ~ 2300 rpm, and psi rise to 10. Second day at 4/day I ran the Polaris 280 with E-Z bag (psi went down some), and for past two days, a backwash and then 2 cycles per 24 hours. Filter pressure back down to 7 psi, went up to 8 overnight.

    I think it may have hit the magic point some time during the night. The pool never has been totally sparkly at night and got worse and worse when I started using the Aquabot.


    Comment on pump..... it is so quiet. And it is very sensitive to small amounts of organics and dead worms in pump basket. About 3-4 days in it wanted me to do a backwash, although the pressure hadn't risen much. With pump running there were bits and worms going up the basket about 3" but stuck to sides of basket and not filling the center. After I emptied the basket and removed the skimmer sock (changed several times a day because of fine "stuff" but little other debris becuase of the two Pool Skims and the Solar Breeze keeping most visibile debris up prior to reaching skimmer) it was happy again.

    I'll take more pics tonight with light on. I'm goint to post this and then get last nights pics uploaded to PhotoBucket and then will edit this post with pics.

    Thanks, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Alice, What speeds are you running the new pump at and for how long?

    Scott

    See post above this one. Contrary to what "FMTPG" told me to do I have been playing with pump some.

    Thanks, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Central NJ
    Posts
    3,192

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Run slow (2300 is fine) and continuously, 23 hrs a day. No sweeps. Let whatever fall to floor fall. Manually vacuum the stuff on the bottom.

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Run slow (2300 is fine) and continuously, 23 hrs a day. No sweeps. Let whatever fall to floor fall. Manually vacuum the stuff on the bottom.

    Scott
    Thanks Scott,

    That is what I was supposed to do. It's hard not to play with new toys. I'm not going to tell "FMTPG". He'll be disappointed that I didn't follow his instructions. Well not really, but I just wanted to say that. I might, though, get an "I told you so."

    I'm leaving it alone, now, except for when I video lifting the Slime Bag, probably tomorrow.

    Just checked and it's running 1755 rpm right now. I have it set for stopping cycle 0845 and then starting back up 0910. Should I increase stopped time to one hour? Just out of curiosity, why stop it for an hour?

    I purchased a manual vac hose this week. My old one was shot. I'm not going to start running backwash water through Slime Bag and back in to pool, another use for vac hose, untill it clears a lot more.

    Thanks, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  8. Back To Top    #8
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,887

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Good, it is clearing up. That means that you just need to do more of what you have been doing.

    It sounds like the cloudiness is being caused by something that is right on the edge of what the slime bags can catch. Slime bags don't catch 100% of everything on one pass, some always gets through, while most of it gets caught. Running the pump 24/7 until the water is perfect will speed up the process.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cupertino, CA
    Posts
    1,966

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Quote Originally Posted by geekgranny
    (I've been moving things around and I've misplaced my full TF-100 kit. I have separate, mostly Taylor reagents, that I purchased prior to ordering the kit and a separate FAS/DPD Chlorine Drop test, and have been waiting to use them up before breaking into kit; when I find it. )

    FC - 8 @ 75 F
    pH - 7.5 @ 75
    TA - 60 @ 53
    CH - 250 @ 53
    CYA - 60 @ 53
    Temp 53 F pool --- 75 F, brought inside and sat sample cup in hot water
    Do the pH test without warming the sample up. The CYA test does want the sample warmed up. For the other tests temp doesn't matter so much, except the sample for FC/CC shouldn't sit around long as the chlorine could start outgassing.
    --paulr
    BBB "Intermediate Swimmer"
    IG plaster pool 18.5K gal, Hayward Pro-Grid DE filter, 3/4 HP Hydramax II; Polaris 380, 3/4 HP booster
    AG spa 325 gal, probably Sundance of some kind
    Water testing instructions on one page

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulR
    Quote Originally Posted by geekgranny
    (I've been moving things around and I've misplaced my full TF-100 kit. I have separate, mostly Taylor reagents, that I purchased prior to ordering the kit and a separate FAS/DPD Chlorine Drop test, and have been waiting to use them up before breaking into kit; when I find it. )

    FC - 8 @ 75 F
    pH - 7.5 @ 75
    TA - 60 @ 53
    CH - 250 @ 53
    CYA - 60 @ 53
    Temp 53 F pool --- 75 F, brought inside and sat sample cup in hot water
    Do the pH test without warming the sample up. The CYA test does want the sample warmed up. For the other tests temp doesn't matter so much, except the sample for FC/CC shouldn't sit around long as the chlorine could start outgassing.
    --paulr
    Thanks Paul, Will do. It just takes a few minutes to warm the sample water so it doesn't sit around long. I haven't had time to post pics yet. Did a short video with digital still camera last night, of cloud moving in front of light and will post to Youtube later today.

    Pool light wasn't working for several years, I thought. It was just the GFI so replaced it last year and then put in new Color Splash. The "cloud" is not nearly as noticeable during the day. All last year I was unable to get all the particles out running DE filter 24/7. Of course this was with a way undersized filter and over-sized, for the filter, pump. I'm hoping the Intelliflo VF running on low, with such a big filter will eventually do a better job. When I switched to cellulose last year it seemed to get a little better. I do think the AA treatment, with such old, scaly plaster may be the main culprit although our two years of drought and increasing silt coming to our property is contributing too. I've maintained that some of our silt is smaller than pool DE. I guess I'm going to have to get out the higher powered microscope (as opposed to the dissecting microscope we keep in kitchen) and make up some slides to really measure it. There are all kinds of filtering bags going down way below 1 micron. I don't, though, want to keep purchasing expensive bags until I know what micron size I'm dealing with. After it gets as clear as possible I may just have to do a monthly polish with a bag that filters down smaller than the SlimeBag.

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Good, it is clearing up. That means that you just need to do more of what you have been doing.

    It sounds like the cloudiness is being caused by something that is right on the edge of what the slime bags can catch. Slime bags don't catch 100% of everything on one pass, some always gets through, while most of it gets caught. Running the pump 24/7 until the water is perfect will speed up the process.
    I've been running the two submersible pumps pushing water through the Slime Bags for a couple of weeks or more. I got impatient and took bags out and cleaned them before they dried, as per instructions, because I wanted to see what the new filter/pump would do. I'll leave the current bag in a lot longer to see if the collection of particles will add some additional filtering capability. I think you may be suggesting, and what I'm thinking too, as the bag is used, it eventually has to be replaced. I guess that's because the "fabric" eventually become too clogged. Maybe they will work best as they clog up and get near replacement time.

    Question: when the particles start coming out of bag when it is not disturbed is that time to clean it?

    Thanks, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Video taken with digital still camera. Yesterday was the first day I could see the bottom drain. This is video from last night. At night, with pool light on, the difference from the night before and last night is not as obvious as it is during the daytime.
    Video goes through several colors. Drifting clouds show up better on some colors than others.

    [youtube:4lgwo8h9]zy_Dy2DDdBE[/youtube:4lgwo8h9]

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  13. Back To Top    #13

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Central NJ
    Posts
    3,192

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Alice,

    The shutdown time prevents the DE from hardening on the grids. This is true for ALL DE filters. I've told by Pentair 1 hour is the recommended period. I would generally set it for night since there is no sun and FC will stay put.

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Alice,

    The shutdown time prevents the DE from hardening on the grids. This is true for ALL DE filters. I've told by Pentair 1 hour is the recommended period. I would generally set it for night since there is no sun and FC will stay put.

    Scott
    WOW No one has ever suggested doing this. This sure does make sense. I wish I had know this 23 years ago.

    Makes me wonder how many people with DE filters, or Pool Builders, or Pool Guys even know about this let alone advise people to do it.

    Much thanks, gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  15. Back To Top    #15

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    271

    Re: I'm still not seeing the bottom

    I don't have anything else to add Alice, seeing as how I know nothing about DE filters, just wanted to say keep up with the POP. You will be happy with the result, and I have faith you'll get it there. Just keep at it!
    John

    24' round Vogue AGP 12,000 gal. Flotec AT251001-01 1HP pump, Hayward S310T2 sand filter, Aquarite SWG T-15
    TF-100 (found at TF Test Kits) with Speedstir and Samplesizer

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •