Standard Eyeball Returns-Different Types/Uses?

[geekgranny]

I have the standard eyeball returns, four, in my pool. When I put in my first PoolSkim I replaced two of the eyeballs with smaller openings to divert more flow to the PS. Then I put in the second one. I reduced one eyeball to 1/4" and another to about 1/8" (or less-didn't measure) to get adequate flow to the two PoolSkims. If you are familiar with me you will probably remember that we have an extreme environment and two PoolSkims is not overkill especially when plants are messy in Spring and huge amounts of falling/blowing leaves from Oct through end of Dec. In addition constant doggie hair, blowing silt, and pollen much of the year.

So new developments: The Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) is doing a remarkable job!!!! I started using it when there were still a lot of blowing leaves so it can get overly full during high leaf time so the PoolSkims helped tremendously. Prior to putting in the PSs I directed the returns upwards and around the pool so that leaves would finally make it to the skimmer but it would fill in minutes so that I would need to be here when the pump was running; 1.5 hp, 1.5 SF pump, one speed so flow was fabulous. I would have to turn off bottom drain to keep leaves from going to pump basket and clogging it in a few minutes too. Polaris, with several leaf bags (actually the after market Aquawerx jumbo bags hold more leaves and catches smaller debris too), had to be emptied many times a day to keep up with leaves that made it to bottom. PSs bags needed a couple or more emptyings a day also. I will use this setup in the fall but for Spring/Summer/Early Fall I'm going to use a different setup.

During all year I still have the issues with sand and very fine silt. I have the new Pentair Intelliflo VF that I plan on, during non leaf falling periods, using on very low with pretty constant filtration 24/7; speeds to be determined once I start playing with it. The Solar Breeze, running 24/7 will take care of much of the fine stuff and plant debris that blows into the pool. I may not need to use the Polaris during the day as the Aquabot, with fine bag (again after market ScumBags are the best for silt) running at night, when dogs are put up, will take care of virtually all of the fine silt (in addition to constant low speed circulation) and all sand. Due to these two products, SolarBreeze and Aquabot, I doubt that the Tracker 4X will be needed much at all (and it requires higher pump speeds) so it may be semi-retired. Polaris will probably be kept up until leaf falling time. One or both will be kept handy for really fast cleanup when needed.

Okay RETURNS. Has anyone used the eyeballs with the slits? I am thinking that I won't be needing the returns to direct the flow to skimmer as the SolarBreeze will capture virtually all blown in debris pretty much round the clock (with the Li-ion batteries it will run all night, without sunlight, as long as it gets enough sun during the previous day, building up charge while continuing to run). I thought about putting a slit eyeball at the shallow end, middle of wall, directed downwards to gently push some of the silt (that collects very heavily in small shallow end) towards the bottom drain in deep end. Is this one of the things the slit return is designed to do; spread out the flow? I do know from looking at one, on Internet, that it can be directed more acutely in any direction compared to the round opening on eyeballs.

I can, also, play with the other returns for directing water down and towards the deep end, too, possibly using the slit eyeballs, but the most effective one will probably be the one at shallow end wall.

Which leads me to. Is there such a return fitting that can be adjusted for amount of flow right at the return? If it doesn't exist that surely would be a great thing to get a patent on. In my case, and for many other people, I/we don't have valves for each return. Easy, quick, adjustment for each return would be fabulous. When adjusting returns for PoolSkims to get enough flow to the PS(s) the fittings have to be taken off, and various sizes of eyeballs have to be tried out. In my case that is 2 or 3 returns that have to be fiddled with taking off and replacing return fittings several times to get the flows just right. It would be nice to adjust the returns for many purposes like PoolSkims and/or increased/decreased flows when one return needs more flow like for my end return (slit hopefully) for movement of silt in a direction, and many other reasons.

I can use some kind of redneck configuration to do this but then I'm looking at the return sticking out into the pool more than desired.

BTW.... as I probably won't be using the Polaris much I can use its return, also (without booster pump, of course) for an additional eyeball.

Comments, suggestions, please.

Thanks, gg=alice

 

[mas985]

I don't know of any returns that allow you to adjust the flow rate but it would seem to be counter productive. Reducing the orifice size of returns may increase the exit velocity of the water but it also increases head loss and reduces over all flow rates so the pool requiring more run time for the same filtering. So in effect, you are reducing the energy efficiency of the pool. Plus, I doubt you could get the velocity high enough to move the silt. Anyway, I think you want to have the returns as large as possible such that the flow rate is high as possible such that the silt can be filtered out before settling. By the way, the lower speeds of the Intelliflo would likely make silt worse as flow rates would drop. Also, I would rely upon the vacuum cleaners or one of the robotics to get the silt.

 

[PaulR]

You've probably mentioned this elsewhere, but have you considered enclosing the pool? It doesn't have to be a greenhouse, I remember hearing about types of glass panes that are really good at keeping the heat out.
--paulr

 

[geekgranny]

Reducing the orifice size of returns may increase the exit velocity of the water but it also increases head loss and reduces over all flow rates so the pool requiring more run time for the same filtering.

Not if some are increased while others are reduced. Watching the filter pressure gauge is a pretty simple way to gauge that.

BTW... I will be able to use the Jandy valve on the dedicated pressure cleaner return for some adjustments, too, as I probably won't be using the Polaris much, if all, till the leaves start falling en mass in late Sept.

I don't know of any returns that allow you to adjust the flow rate but it would seem to be counter productive. Reducing the orifice size of returns may increase the exit velocity of the water but it also increases head loss and reduces over all flow rates so the pool requiring more run time for the same filtering. So in effect, you are reducing the energy efficiency of the pool. Plus, I doubt you could get the velocity high enough to move the silt. Anyway, I think you want to have the returns as large as possible such that the flow rate is high as possible such that the silt can be filtered out before settling. By the way, the lower speeds of the Intelliflo would likely make silt worse as flow rates would drop. Also, I would rely upon the vacuum cleaners or one of the robotics to get the silt.

Thanks Mark. I'm going to mull over what you have said. I'm hoping to get out today to pick up the pipes and fittings so I can install my new filter and pump this week, unless something else come up; never can tell. The weather has been too bad, for months, to do it. Then I'll be starting with all new circumstances (except environment, of course) to begin observations and trials. When we first moved out here it took me a whole summer to get the returns just right (and everyone was threatened with broken knees if they changed them ).

One of the conditions that makes for adjustments of returns is prevailing wind directions, which are strong and frequently variable, with lots of blowing debris always. A gentle breeze, out here, is 20 mph. We had an almost still day in past week or so and it was almost scary; too still for my liking, although it felt good with no wind chill and sun out for a few hours.

It took a lot of time getting the two remaining returns adjusted (flow) so that the two PoolSkims had enough flow for the venturi action. Adjusting for flow rates and directions required many put-ons/take-offs/change-outs of return fillings because of amounts of variables. PoolSkims need the majority of flow to work properly. They have virtually no restriction so they are just like a 1.5" return with no fitting. That was after I had spent considerable time adjusting three for the first Pool Skim. (This was all before I started using the Solar Breeze so I still needed to consider flow directions to get things to the skimmer and Pool Skims. I'll have to go through that several times when the leaves start falling in late Sept. when I put the PoolSkims back on. (We are at the highest elevation in Texas between the Red River on north border and a certain point on the coast with west Texas prairie winds blasting us much of the year, funneled straight up our valley from the plains.) Leaves will continue to fall through Dec with prevailing wind directions changing twice after I get them set up the first time. (I'm not going to use the Pool Skims again until the leaves start falling as the Solar Breeze will handle the "regular" debris.) We finally have some sun today so it is out there quickly paddling up loads of holly leaves and berries right now. :-D

I am well aware of the head chages just observing the pressure while fiddling with the returns and there are fine adjustments in return flows (eyeball sizes) watching the filter pressure during the whole process to have adequate flow to Pool Skims while keeping the filter pressure as close to pre adjustments as possible. Until I got a tiny hole eyeball I had to use an eyeball blocker, I had on hand, on one return, to get enough flow to PoolSkims. With one and then two Pool Skims and different levels of restriction on other returns, both with and without Polaris running (which made no difference) my max pressure increase at filter, for any configuration, was 4 psi.

I'm going to start off, after new filter and pump installed, with all return fittings off, as a base point for filter pressure, then probably install regular returns on each and go from there. BTW... my first degree was Physics so I not only have some aptitude for this but also enjoy the theorizing, planning, observations, adjustments (except for so much fiddling with putting on/taking off returns, especially when water temps are below 50 - I got my arm length vinyl gloves after working with the first Pool Skim adjustments in chilly water past fall), etc., etc.

On to another point. I've been thinking about in floor "cleaning systems". I have never seen one in action, in person, nor did I ever observe one in any pools that might have had them prior to learning about their existence reading about them on TPF. Don't they push debris across the pool floor towards a drain? I was thinking that maybe a slit eyeball might facilitate moving some debris, not just silt but sand also, out of the curve at shallow end wall to floor. Although this "new for me" old Aquabot moves more slowly than many of the newer ones it does stir up less silt than its faster moving cousins; just what I needed/wanted when I traded my Verro for it. But it does stir up a bit of silt when it goes up that wall. I was wishing that the slit eyeball could move a bit away from wall before I put the Aquabot in for the night. BTW.... I'll adjust the Intelliflo, as I go along, for different conditions during a 24 hour period to get as much silt filtered/moved as possible. Even at higher flows it has to be more efficient, an all ways, than my old, one speed, big pump running sometimes 24/7.

Which leads me to............ I've been toying with designing an aftermarket, red-neck, jury-rigged, quickly and easily put on and removed, PVC floor system for a couple of areas of pool, using returns, mostly out of curiosity to see what could be accomplished. Again, another reason for quick, easy, point of use, adjustable return fittings. I may not have any success but, at the very least, it will be fun and challenging (as if there aren't enough already :lol: ).

I'm going to order some slit eyeballs. At the very least I can use one for a small fountain.

gg=alice

 

[geekgranny]

You've probably mentioned this elsewhere, but have you considered enclosing the pool? It doesn't have to be a greenhouse, I remember hearing about types of glass panes that are really good at keeping the heat out.
--paulr

Help me pick winning lottery numbers and I'll do just that in addition to hiring professional glass cleaners to come out once a month and someone to supervise them. :lol:

Seriously though, The glass would have to be heavily tinted, with several layers with gas between, because of our extreme sun and 100+ temps and able to resist scratching from blowing sand. Opening windows for ventilation, even with screening, will let in virtually as much of our silt as open exposure. That's evident in our house even when it is kept closed up. So it would have to be kept totally closed and ventilated with big motorized blowers/fans with large, several stage filters to catch the silt.

I do have a 24' X 12' greenhouse, insulated with heavy gauge, clear pool, solar cover and high UV shade netting for most of year. The only way to cool it enough in summer is AC (It's too humid here to use swamp coolers), even with loads of ventilation and fans, which have to be used most of the time, during "normal" winters. And it is totally shadded by house in the afternoon. In early spring, even when low temps are still expected, plants have to be moved out or they will literally cook during the day, even with high UV shade netting.

But if you pick those numbers well enough (I'll split the winnings with you) I can put in the GIANT, really tall, wind generator, in the front 40 (.77 acre :lol: ), and completely cover the house roof with solar panels.

gg=alice :-D

 

[The Mermaid Queen]

What about a screen room? It would not keep out the silt, or probably the doggy hair, as I assume that falls off of the four-legged invited guests, but it would keep the leaves out, not trap the heat, and provide a teensy amount of shade...

 

[mas985]

Not if some are increased while others are reduced. Watching the filter pressure gauge is a pretty simple way to gauge that.

If you reduce the size of some returns but increase the size of others, the water will simply take the path of least resistance so the small returns will have reduced flow rate while the large returns will have more flow. The smaller returns might have a little higher exit velocity but the flow rate would have been less. My main point is that having some small returns and some large will have more head loss than if all the returns were large but perhaps it was not all that significant in your case.

As for in-floor cleaners. they are designed for the purpose of cleaning the floor so the jets are installed at floor level and horizontal to the floor plus the drains are designed to handle large debris. Also, most systems require fairly large pumps and pressure to maintain high velocity for effective cleaning. I'm not sure that having a jet higher up on the wall will be all that effective at moving debris on the floor. The exit velocity and pressures would have to be extremely high.

 

[geekgranny]

What about a screen room? It would not keep out the silt, or probably the doggy hair, as I assume that falls off of the four-legged invited guests, but it would keep the leaves out, not trap the heat, and provide a teensy amount of shade...

Development while typing this. My smaller "Slime Bag" came in yesterday. The huge Backwash bag has been here a few days so I'll hook it up when I take out the smaller one in a bit to clean it. Last night I hooked the smaller one up to a hose attached to a 4/10 hp submersible pump hanging down into pool but not on bottom. It has been running about 14 hours (probably too long without cleaning it). I just went out to check it. When I gently, lifted it out of the water, just a few inches, a cloud of light, brown "dust" came out of the walls of the bag. This bag is the "Vacuum/X-Tra Polishing" bag [SB 1.5018] 60 GPM @ 50 PSI that is rated at filtering down to 1 Micron. About 400 microns will fit inside an average size period in a sentence. A micron is one 300th the diameter of a human hair. DE (different grades) has a particle size ranging from less than 1 micron to more than 1 millimeter, but typically 10 to 200 microns. See this good article about DE. It explains some of the things I refer to in following post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth

Silt is the main issue; always has been outside and inside the house and constantly in the pool. I keep part of my army of robot floor vacuums (different brands/types for different jobs) running much of the time and during wet weather (past three months) at least three iRobot Scoobas running many hours a day (I have six working Scoobas and bunches of extra batteries). The Scoobas, really, really help to keep the dust down, too, as floors are constantly "damp dusted" while they are running; keeps mud from big and GIANT paws cleaned up and from drying and moving into the air when disturbed. The 'bots have to be run in multiples as one or two running alone are quickly overwhelmed by the amounts of "dust" (and hair) we have making clean outs/filter changes too frequent during one cleaning cycle. I sometimes use the DirtDogs (shop 'bots) to scrub the big Trex deck and pool Kool Decking. Major cuts down on water use (and more mud).

Our "dust" has many of the properties of DE; as fine or some finer than most grades of DE and saps the moisture right out of your hands, especially noticeable when dusting without gloves. We attribute our lack of most "bugs" in the house to our "dust" as we don't use insecticides inside and only "green" controls, sparingly, outside, on a few plants and fire ant hills. (Amdro is a fabulous control measure-we, also, have less problems with fire ants than neighbors.). Our huge bird population (we feed hundreds year round) and other wildlife, take care of many outside pests too. (Everyone, especially in/near protected habitat areas battle mean, dangerous critters in their houses, and outside too, many using poisons and have more problems with "bugs" than we have.) We are virtually "organic"/"green" inside and outside.

Our situation is compounded by the herds of GIANT house-dogs (and a few "only large" dogs too) we've always kept as family, house-dogs even if they are show/working dogs. Even when our numbers have been in the teens (but usually between 6-10) we have no "kennel dogs" so they have several large, fenced yards, all with access to either the house or heated/cooled pens in the converted garage. It is impossible to keep grass alive or healthy everywhere so we have larger areas of beaten down grass, or no grass, than most neighbors. There's too much area to concrete. When DH and I were both, more employed and not as "semi-retired" as we are now, we had full time help mostly for the house and doggie care. The various "she's" vacuumed the house at least once a day, and one insisted on mopping twice a day. We can't afford that any more but the 'bots do a great job and the Scoobas wet-clean the floors better than any person or crew can.

We have only three dogs now (and one very frequent neighbor girl), all extremely active and major swimmers. In addition we have had two continuous years of drought. So our silt has been worse than usual in past year.

Yikes, gotta run...... Need to get the big SlimeBag in pool and working.

gg=alice

 

[geekgranny]

Not if some are increased while others are reduced. Watching the filter pressure gauge is a pretty simple way to gauge that.

If you reduce the size of some returns but increase the size of others, the water will simply take the path of least resistance so the small returns will have reduced flow rate while the large returns will have more flow. The smaller returns might have a little higher exit velocity but the flow rate would have been less. My main point is that having some small returns and some large will have more head loss than if all the returns were large but perhaps it was not all that significant in your case.

As for in-floor cleaners. they are designed for the purpose of cleaning the floor so the jets are installed at floor level and horizontal to the floor plus the drains are designed to handle large debris. Also, most systems require fairly large pumps and pressure to maintain high velocity for effective cleaning. I'm not sure that having a jet higher up on the wall will be all that effective at moving debris on the floor. The exit velocity and pressures would have to be extremely high.

My thoughts, just for experimenting, are to run (trying various sizes) PVC down the wall from the return and then with various lengths of single pipe running to a T, Y, elbow, etc., all on floor, with various sizes of holes (will be determined with experimentation) directing flow along bottom surface. Over the years I've used and played with various types of misting systems for air cooling, outside sitting areas and for plants inside the greenhouses, and outside, for hydration, cooling, and watering. There exists a multitude of types, brass (my preference) and "plastic" heads, for use with soft and hard "plastic" and vinyl tubing/pipes that control flows from extremely fine mist to spray to drip to streams. I have a big box of misting/irrigation heads. I usually dump (recycle) the tubing/piping and many heads when I do major changes. The brass heads, though, can be cleaned and reused with O-rings replaced when needed. For misting/irrigation I do use particle/mineral filters to keep, especially the misters, from clogging/caking/scaling too fast. In the beginning of my pool project I'm not going to introduce the element of finer filtering the feed water, beyond what is at my pumping station, just to keep things simpler. Finer filtering my not even be needed anyway.

BTW... for years, my indoors, bad weather hobby was hacking, hardware/software, various Internet Appliances, early Pen Tablets (commonly seen in Police cars, trucks, and industrial equipment), and other electronics, all "computers" of sorts, for uses other than what they we designed. I do miss doing that.

I'm going to play with this when the weather warms up. Although I'll be "playing and relaxing in and by the pool" and "just enjoying the pool" I'll get in a bit of "real work" in the process. :lol:

gg=alice

 

[geekgranny]

As for in-floor cleaners. they are designed for the purpose of cleaning the floor so the jets are installed at floor level and horizontal to the floor plus the drains are designed to handle large debris.

Except during our Fall, late Sept through late Dec, I don't have much "larger debris" other than sand. The SolarBreeze will catch virtually everything else that would normally settle to the bottom, except for toys, with virtually everything stopped at the main drain (Virtually everything, and I really mean everything, is a toy for the puppies. Jake Mastiff recently threw a 30" planter into the pool; sans most of the soil, thank goodness. And, of course, there are the big river rocks they are so fond of throwing in.).

I've just recently became concerned with the affects of sand on the main pump impeller (Well, impellers on most of my pumps) so I'm looking at rigid metal screening, similar to the screening used in the Polaris pressure cleaner wall-fitting screen, to be used in the pump basket. I have used other materials, in the past, especially for trash-pump pot, but I'm now more concerned (thanks TFP members :-D ) with head loss so I'm looking for something that will allow maximum flow but catch some of the larger/grittier sand that is mostly deposited in the pool by the puppies.

I got a really good deal on a Jandy Energy filter, with 3-way Jandy valve. So I'm toying with ideas how it might be of use suction and/or pressure side for additional filtering at pool pad and/or with new 3/4 hp trash pump. I have other ideas too, including making use of the Hayward, big canister, in-line leaf catcher for suction side cleaners. I've ordered various micron sizes, filter capability, materials and bags, used for various types of filtration, but all chemical resistant, to play with. The largest micron size is 100 microns and going down from there.

The very first cleaner, that was here when we moved in, was the "floating disc/octopus arms" pressure cleaner that had its own return but no separate pump needed, now that I remember. It had a Jandy Energy type filter somewhere at the pad. I had to use extra material inside the filter to catch some particles that clogged the wall fitting screen. Same for when we put in the next cleaner, the Ray Vac. I think it may have used a booster pump but I'm not totally sure. I really liked it, especially using the fine screen, but it just couldn't handle our Fall leaves. Although I fought it, at the time, the person who installed our first pressure Polaris and Polaris booster, insisted on taking the Jandy type filter out. Sure wish I had saved it. I, almost entirely, do most of my hoarding with things that belong or used outside, or can be stored in the garage or shed, or TOOLS and parts, so I can't imagine why I didn't keep that. :?

This should be a fun summer with many, relatively inexpensive, pool "projects". ANYTHING TO BE OUTSIDE!!!!!! "Sure, friend, I'll dig that ditch for you..... uh, DH, I can't clean the house this week."

Now, just don't get me started on the roofing racks I want to build for the solar panels I want. :lol:

gg=alice

 

[Davegvg]

I have 1 scooba, I was an early adopter.

It doesnt work to well in my house, but it was way better than me cleaning the hardwoord floors.

The cacophonous aural assault supplied by just one makes is enough to drive me from the area of operation.

- 6 must be like a construction project in your house.


Dave