tsunami
0
Having 2 cartridges would be good. You could alternate using one while giving the other a good cleaning. What's the filter pressure now that the filter's clean?
New Pool Owner in Phoenix
- Thread starter JohnPHX
- Start date
Chems are still important. Your first order is to get the pH down to the low 7's to prevent scale from forming.
The VS-3050 can be speed limited so that those with 1-1/2 inch plumbing don't have to worry.. I believe you have 2" plumbing, so you will be fine. Your normal use speeds will be much lower anyway. You won't be using the full output capability, nor will you want to. By slowing the motor, it uses less power.
The motor itself is actually desigmed being able to go to controllers that can provide it with sufficient power to be rated at 6 HP. Pentair's controller limits it to 3 HP. This is able to be done because the motor is a 3 Phase 6 pole design. Regular pool motors use a single phase 2 pole design. The Pentair controller creates the needed power digitally using DC pulses in such rapid succession to accurately simulate a utility provided 3 phase power source. Getting 3 phase power from the power company is an expensive proposition. This is how the do it with large AC units, elevators, escalators, large hoists and many other applications. The technology behind it is sound and proven.
Your day time speed will use about 300 Watts. You're currently using a 1-1/2 HP which uses about 1500 watts. The motor for the Intellifow series of pumps uses it's power at this speed (about 1100 RPM) is about 90% efficient. Your current pump motor is about 50% with the wasted energy turned to heat. The casing is hot!.
Additional energy savings come in the fact that slower moving water through pipe has less friction loss.
I expect a flow rate from 30 to 35 GPM which will push enough water to feed the chlorinator. Your current flow is guestimated at 50 to 70 GPM, depending on whether the floor jets are on or off.
At night, Easytouch will change the return path to the floors and turn on the pump to about 2000 RPM, push about 70 GPM to drive the floor system. I expect about 800 watts. For two hours.
The bottom drains are normally open unless you close them fully or partially, like when you vacuum. They are independent of which returns are open.
Scott
PS zea3, lithium hypochlorite doesn't have any CYA either. It' just expensive.
The only chlorine type suitable in that feeder is 3" trichlor tabs.
The VS-3050 can be speed limited so that those with 1-1/2 inch plumbing don't have to worry.. I believe you have 2" plumbing, so you will be fine. Your normal use speeds will be much lower anyway. You won't be using the full output capability, nor will you want to. By slowing the motor, it uses less power.
The motor itself is actually desigmed being able to go to controllers that can provide it with sufficient power to be rated at 6 HP. Pentair's controller limits it to 3 HP. This is able to be done because the motor is a 3 Phase 6 pole design. Regular pool motors use a single phase 2 pole design. The Pentair controller creates the needed power digitally using DC pulses in such rapid succession to accurately simulate a utility provided 3 phase power source. Getting 3 phase power from the power company is an expensive proposition. This is how the do it with large AC units, elevators, escalators, large hoists and many other applications. The technology behind it is sound and proven.
Your day time speed will use about 300 Watts. You're currently using a 1-1/2 HP which uses about 1500 watts. The motor for the Intellifow series of pumps uses it's power at this speed (about 1100 RPM) is about 90% efficient. Your current pump motor is about 50% with the wasted energy turned to heat. The casing is hot!.
Additional energy savings come in the fact that slower moving water through pipe has less friction loss.
I expect a flow rate from 30 to 35 GPM which will push enough water to feed the chlorinator. Your current flow is guestimated at 50 to 70 GPM, depending on whether the floor jets are on or off.
At night, Easytouch will change the return path to the floors and turn on the pump to about 2000 RPM, push about 70 GPM to drive the floor system. I expect about 800 watts. For two hours.
The bottom drains are normally open unless you close them fully or partially, like when you vacuum. They are independent of which returns are open.
Scott
PS zea3, lithium hypochlorite doesn't have any CYA either. It' just expensive.
The only chlorine type suitable in that feeder is 3" trichlor tabs.
whatever you do don't rush and do something drastic - don't trust the test strip results as they are wildly inaccurate. You really do need one of the recommended test kits, there is a comparison of the two we recommend in Pool School.
So after you get the water tested, post back here. Order your own kit ASAP.
So after you get the water tested, post back here. Order your own kit ASAP.
Ok, I am now a believer. The test strips are junk.
The local pool supply/hardware store also uses the colored strips. So I jaunted over to Leslie's and had them run a check.
They ran many separate tests and came back with the following:
FAC = 5
TAC = 5
CYA = 80
TA = 110
pH = 7.6
TDS = 1800
According to the paperwork they gave me, my pool is balanced. I have ordered the TF100 kit through the Pool School link but its nice to know that for now I am OK.
He said my chlorine might be a touch high (I am currently using 3x3" tabs in my container) and that I could let it get down to two tabs and hold it there or turn the dial down a bit.
I am stunned by the difference between the guess-a-color chart (and I am definitely not color blind as its a requirement for my profession and I get tested yearly) and what Leslie's came back with as results.
The local pool supply/hardware store also uses the colored strips. So I jaunted over to Leslie's and had them run a check.
They ran many separate tests and came back with the following:
FAC = 5
TAC = 5
CYA = 80
TA = 110
pH = 7.6
TDS = 1800
According to the paperwork they gave me, my pool is balanced. I have ordered the TF100 kit through the Pool School link but its nice to know that for now I am OK.
He said my chlorine might be a touch high (I am currently using 3x3" tabs in my container) and that I could let it get down to two tabs and hold it there or turn the dial down a bit.
I am stunned by the difference between the guess-a-color chart (and I am definitely not color blind as its a requirement for my profession and I get tested yearly) and what Leslie's came back with as results.
According to the CYA chart in pool school, based on a CYA of 80, your pool's target FAC would be 9, with a minimum of 6 (without a SWG), and your target FAC would be 6, with a minimum of 4 (with a SWG). Once you get your Test Kit, you will be able to get a "handle" on your chemical demand and keep your pool balanced. However, I recommend you use unscented bleach (chlorine) to keep your pool sanitized instead of the 3" tabs. That is also discussed in Pool School. Good Luck!
PoolGuyNJ said:
I would have no idea if my bottom drains or open or closed (partially or otherwise) nor how to change their status.
tsunami said:
With the clean(er) filter I get the following pressures:
Return only - 14psi
Return + pop ups - 14psi
Pop Ups only - 20psi
No pops or skimmer - 30psi
What I don't know is how to tell if the bottom drains are working properly and/or how to adjust them. Getting into that freezing water I suppose is one alternative and then see if I can feel suction beneath my feet. But I would think there has to be some other way.
With the skimmer operating, the pop ups come up at about say half strength. They make little "flowers" in the dirt on the bottom of the pool but don't seem to really be helping to clean it per se.
Per New Jerseys advice, I have switched my timer to run during the daytime from about 10am to 4pm for now. I am hoping to get a programmable timer next spring along with a more energy efficient pump.
I am assuming the skimmer and drains are both open unless otherwise stated.
Wall Return at 14 - good and makes sense
Wall and Floor @ 14 good, makes sense.
Floor only @ 20 Good and makes sense.
No Floor or skimmer @ 30 Doesn't make sense.
Running on the bottom drain and sending to the wall returns should yield a slightly lower than 14 psi result, not higher pressure in the filter. Something was partly closed, like a loose eyeball rolling in the return fittings or a valve not fully open.
The pictures you posted earlier show your skimmer and drain are tied somewhere at the skimmer. My question to you is where exactly are they tied?
Scott
Wall Return at 14 - good and makes sense
Wall and Floor @ 14 good, makes sense.
Floor only @ 20 Good and makes sense.
No Floor or skimmer @ 30 Doesn't make sense.
Running on the bottom drain and sending to the wall returns should yield a slightly lower than 14 psi result, not higher pressure in the filter. Something was partly closed, like a loose eyeball rolling in the return fittings or a valve not fully open.
The pictures you posted earlier show your skimmer and drain are tied somewhere at the skimmer. My question to you is where exactly are they tied?
Scott
PoolGuyNJ said:
I don't know how or if it is possible to partially or fully close my drain. I also don't know how to figure out where the drain and skimmer are tied together.
I took new pictures today, hopefully they help answer this question.
Would this require me to get into the pool and unscrew the caps from the two drains at the bottom?
And just to be clear, the return and the skimmer are the same thing right? I don't want my terminology to get mixed up.
From observing the movement of objects in the pump basket, it appears that there is much less flow when the skimmer is turned off and basically zero movement when the skimmer and pop ups are both off (this is also when the PSI jumps to its highest level).
Should the skimmer and pop ups be opened at all times?
Also, one more thing. The picture of the two drains under the skimmer basket, only one of those two has suction. I figured this out when I plugged in my vacuum.
Should both have suction?
The "return" is where the water returns back into the pool. It is the outlet where water enters into the pool from the pump/circulation system. The skimmer is where water is skimmed from the top and goes back to the pump via the suction lines. So the return and skimmer are opposites -- water from the pool goes into the skimmer to the pump, filter, etc. and then back into the pool via the return.JohnPHX said:
A floor drain also takes water from the pool (like a skimmer, but at the bottom of the pool) while a pop-up is like a return on the floor putting water back into the pool.
chem geek said:
Ok, so if the skimmer and return are opposites, then there is not valve for my skimmer.
I have a valve marked return that when I shut off, also shuts off the skimmer at the wall.
This is why I have been considering them to be the same thing. While I realize that one is sucking in and one is pushing water out, they seem to be controlled by the same valve. So I am guessing I need to leave this valve open at all times?
http://picasaweb.google.com/carlyrobey/ ... irectlink#
One valve cannot be controlling both the water input and the water output at the same time -- not unless this was a complex valve that was controlling two pipe inputs to two pipe outputs at the same time (very unlikely). Perhaps this valve is marked incorrectly. Note that if your skimmer were the only input of water into the pump (for example, if there were no floor drains or other inputs), then shutting off this input would starve the pump and effectively shut off the output (returns) as well since there would be no water flowing into the circulation system so none could flow out.
A more typical scenario has separate valves for separate inputs of water -- say, one for the skimmer(s) and a separate one for the floor drain(s). Note the placement of the valve -- is it between a pipe coming from the ground and going directly to the pump? If so, then this is an input of water from the pool. Pipes from the pump usually then go to the filter (and other equipment such as heaters) and then go back to the pool. Exceptions to this would be separate pumps for pool cleaners that usually have inputs of water that T off of the main input to or output from the main pump and then their output goes to a pipe going directly back to one or more specific outlets in the pool.
A more typical scenario has separate valves for separate inputs of water -- say, one for the skimmer(s) and a separate one for the floor drain(s). Note the placement of the valve -- is it between a pipe coming from the ground and going directly to the pump? If so, then this is an input of water from the pool. Pipes from the pump usually then go to the filter (and other equipment such as heaters) and then go back to the pool. Exceptions to this would be separate pumps for pool cleaners that usually have inputs of water that T off of the main input to or output from the main pump and then their output goes to a pipe going directly back to one or more specific outlets in the pool.
From the pictures you posted earlier, there is no valve separating the two at the pump. That tells me it's tied at or under the skimmer. Looking in the skimmer picture, there are two openings. One of openings is either tied to the drain or to an equalizing port in the pool wall just below the skimmer. Is there an opening just below the skimmer? If there is, then the skimmer is closed by plugging the the other hole. The bottom drain would be tied in under the skimmer.
The purpose of an equalizer here is to ensure you don't lose prime at the pump if the pool's water level drops below the skimmer mouth. If it did, the suction from the pump would start to empty the sump in the skimmer. Once the sump's level is below the waterline in the pool, water would enter from the equalizer port. Water seeks it's own level. Since the equalizer creates a direct path to the pool, the air pressure on the pool pushes water in to try to keep the sump in the skimmer at the same level as the pool. The pool won't skimmer but you won't lose prime and run the pump dry.
We don't see a lot of this in the N.E. because they can be tougher to winterize reliably. It also prevents turning the drain into a return. This can be useful to people with 8' deep ends and no floor jets. Assuming the water level is high enough for the skimmers to operate, shutting a valve on the suction side and opening another on the return side can allow heated water to be sent deep. It keeps me from whining. An 85 degree pool in the shallow end may only be 70 in the deep end down low. That initial shock wakes you right up!
I suspect that you were turning off a return when the pressure jumped to 30 PSI and that the pump was dead headed, that is trying to push water but the return path was blocked.
Anything after the filter is a return to the pool. They are called return inlets. Anything in front of the pump is called a suction outlet. The inlet and outlets are with respect to the pool, not the pool equipment. Suction side goes out of the pool and return side goes into the pool. Using the terms inlet and outlet will confuse anyone, even experienced people if the usage isn't confirmed by both parties.
Added the following additional stuff:
You might want to retest what you did and relabel your valves. The ones labeled arator and skimmer are miss labeled. I'll bet they are the regular returns.
The flaking you see is scale. The pH got high causing the calcium in solution to drop out and form deposits. The treatment appears to have been started but not completed which is why you have flaking.
The center tube of the Paramount distribution mushroom is the feed line from the plumbing. Water comes up the center pipe, spins a turbine on the gear box/transmission. The turbine spins the gears which open a valve over the other tubes, one at a time and at a rate that is based on flow rate. The other tubes are plumbed to different sets of floor jets.
When you run the floor cleaning system, run it alone. Lets see if the boost in return flow is sufficient to do a better job cleaning.
Watch your chems. Since you don't have a heater, keeping the alk at about 100 and the pH at about 7.3 will prevent it from getting worse. Its OK to brush off the flakes. Then gently sand them smooth with fine wet/dry sand paper.
Scott
The purpose of an equalizer here is to ensure you don't lose prime at the pump if the pool's water level drops below the skimmer mouth. If it did, the suction from the pump would start to empty the sump in the skimmer. Once the sump's level is below the waterline in the pool, water would enter from the equalizer port. Water seeks it's own level. Since the equalizer creates a direct path to the pool, the air pressure on the pool pushes water in to try to keep the sump in the skimmer at the same level as the pool. The pool won't skimmer but you won't lose prime and run the pump dry.
We don't see a lot of this in the N.E. because they can be tougher to winterize reliably. It also prevents turning the drain into a return. This can be useful to people with 8' deep ends and no floor jets. Assuming the water level is high enough for the skimmers to operate, shutting a valve on the suction side and opening another on the return side can allow heated water to be sent deep. It keeps me from whining. An 85 degree pool in the shallow end may only be 70 in the deep end down low. That initial shock wakes you right up!
I suspect that you were turning off a return when the pressure jumped to 30 PSI and that the pump was dead headed, that is trying to push water but the return path was blocked.
Anything after the filter is a return to the pool. They are called return inlets. Anything in front of the pump is called a suction outlet. The inlet and outlets are with respect to the pool, not the pool equipment. Suction side goes out of the pool and return side goes into the pool. Using the terms inlet and outlet will confuse anyone, even experienced people if the usage isn't confirmed by both parties.
Added the following additional stuff:
You might want to retest what you did and relabel your valves. The ones labeled arator and skimmer are miss labeled. I'll bet they are the regular returns.
The flaking you see is scale. The pH got high causing the calcium in solution to drop out and form deposits. The treatment appears to have been started but not completed which is why you have flaking.
The center tube of the Paramount distribution mushroom is the feed line from the plumbing. Water comes up the center pipe, spins a turbine on the gear box/transmission. The turbine spins the gears which open a valve over the other tubes, one at a time and at a rate that is based on flow rate. The other tubes are plumbed to different sets of floor jets.
When you run the floor cleaning system, run it alone. Lets see if the boost in return flow is sufficient to do a better job cleaning.
Watch your chems. Since you don't have a heater, keeping the alk at about 100 and the pH at about 7.3 will prevent it from getting worse. Its OK to brush off the flakes. Then gently sand them smooth with fine wet/dry sand paper.
Scott
Its been awhile since I posted.
Thank you Scott and everyone else for all of the great advice.
I bought a new filter and threw out the old one, it was really pretty bad. Even after soaking it for 24 hours it looked horrible and a lot of the dirt and grime just didn't want to come off.
With the brand new filter in place the PSI has dropped to 8!!!!
Scott you were right, what I was thinking of as the "skimmer" valve is just a return valve. The reason the skimmer shuts off when I turn it off is because there is zero flow and that makes sense.
I went out and bought a vacuum and am now resigned to vacuuming once a week or so and the pool looks tons better. I ordered my test kit almost two weeks ago however and I still haven't received it.
Hopefully it will be coming soon.
Again thank you to everyone who helped out, I am sure there is still a lot of information to learn from these forums and I can't wait until next summer when I actually get to use the pool for the first time.
Thank you Scott and everyone else for all of the great advice.
I bought a new filter and threw out the old one, it was really pretty bad. Even after soaking it for 24 hours it looked horrible and a lot of the dirt and grime just didn't want to come off.
With the brand new filter in place the PSI has dropped to 8!!!!
Scott you were right, what I was thinking of as the "skimmer" valve is just a return valve. The reason the skimmer shuts off when I turn it off is because there is zero flow and that makes sense.
I went out and bought a vacuum and am now resigned to vacuuming once a week or so and the pool looks tons better. I ordered my test kit almost two weeks ago however and I still haven't received it.
Hopefully it will be coming soon.
Again thank you to everyone who helped out, I am sure there is still a lot of information to learn from these forums and I can't wait until next summer when I actually get to use the pool for the first time.