Rust from pool light ground wire

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Replacing the niche would be a big deal. It's embedded in the concrete. So, you would need to jackhammer out the whole thing and run new conduit at least part way.

Another option is to replace the conduit with metal conduit as that satisfies the requirements because it is the bonding jumper.

You wouldn't want to drill through the niche where the old connector was because that's where the external bond wire is.

Trying to install a new lug wouldn't be easy. Drilling is likely to leak and probably wouldn't be strong unless you could get a nut on the outside.

Even then, it's a modified connection that might not be considered acceptable.
 
It's a bad design. I think that the connection is sometimes brass, which doesn't do well in pool water. There might be some stray current that has accelerated the corrosion.

They should use better metal and maybe install a backup connector for just this type of thing.
 
A low voltage lighting system could probably qualify for use without the bonding jumper. But, that would need an electrician to change out the light and maybe the wiring and add a transformer.
 
Well, I suppose unless everything is the same metal there's bound to be some amount of galvanic corrosion going on, enhanced by the salt in the water... just a matter of time. As in all construction, if it requires some type of goo to make it work (caulk, sealant, tar, whatever), that'll be the first to go...
 
Thanks for everyone's input. I did have the referred pool company come out and look at the bonding wire. The technician agreed it was a bonding wire. But in his opinion, and because the new Jandy light was installed a year ago and connects to a GFCI, that the bonding wire is not necessary and that they typically remove the bonding wire when installing new lights. (Implying that bonding wires were only necessary for older light models?). He is preliminary recommending to just pull out the bonding wire altogether to eliminate the possible source of the rust stain. I did ask him whether it would be better to just clip off the wire at the lug and seal the wire end in case later, I (or a future home owner) would want to reconnect the bonding wire. He was going to go back and report back to his HQs and confirm his recommendation.

Now, he thought the rust stain was coming from behind the light niche. The light niche itself was clean and did not have any rust stains. But there's a pin point at the bottom of the niche opening where the plaster meets the niche where there is a tiny but very dark rust stain. He thinks it's possible that there's some rebar behind the niche that is rusting through the pin hole, up under the light, and depositing on the plaster above the light. But he's recommending that we need to eliminate the bonding wire as the source of rust first.

Thoughts on removing the bonding wire?
 
If it's a 120 volt light, the bonding jumper is required by code.

If the connector is corroded off, there's no good solution.

Part of the problem is liability. If anyone got electrocuted, a lawyer would have an expert look for code violations.

If they can establish that there is a code violation that was known, they would be all over it, regardless of whether or not it could be proven to be the cause of the electrocution.

Someone could potentially face criminal or civil penalties for ignoring the code if someone gets injured.

My recommendation is to make sure that everything is code compliant.

Did the service technician say that the connection for the wire was unusable?

Faulty Pool Wiring Leads to Electrocution - AQUA Magazine

Months after the incident, two of the electricians who worked on the pool light were indicted for criminally negligent homicide, and Hernandez's family sued the hotel and the company that wired the pool.

An investigation by police, the city's Public Works and Engineering Department and the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation found the wiring to the pool light lacked the kind of circuit breaker that would have cut off the current in the event of a short circuit, court records show.

The pool also lacked proper grounding. Both are violations of the National Electric Code.

Family settles in pool electrocution lawsuit
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I didn't ask, but I assumed he was recommending to pull it all out because there was no easy connection. He was in the pool, had a dive tank ready if necessary, and could have easily just screwed it back in. I'll have to jump in and look myself, now that I understand more. Maybe because the niche is bonded from the outside, he is assuming the internal jumper is not necessary for code? His HQ may end up vetoing his idea.

Anyway, I did find this article during my research that was a little over my head, but could help others understand how bonding works.

https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2017/03/14/taking-the-mystery-out-of-equipotential-bonding-requirements-for-swimming-pools/

I love my pool, I love my pool,.....
 
I can understand the frustration of dealing with something that might seem unnecessary where the fix seems to be as easy as just removing it or leaving it unconnected.

The story that I linked to in my previous post shows that taking shortcuts might end up causing more harm than anticipated. Most likely, the service people responsible decided that they could ignore certain deficiencies and that it would be ok.

The committee that writes the NEC has deemed the bonding jumper to be necessary. One would have to assume that they don't just add superfluous items with no reason.

In my opinion, a pool service company is not qualified to say that the jumper can be eliminated.

At a minimum, I would want a master electrician to say if it's necessary or not.

In May 2002, a 14-year-old girl from Arlington, Texas, was electrocuted when wiring problems in an apartment swimming pool's underwater lights charged the water with electricity.

Don't Swim With Shocks - CPSC, American Red Cross Warn of Electrocutions in Swimming Pools, Hot Tubs and Spas | CPSC.gov
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According to CBS Miami, “the family of a 7-year-old boy who was electrocuted in a swimming pool has filed a lawsuit against four companies.”

The accident occurred on April 13 this year in a backyard pool owned by the boy’s family. The Sloan family alleges that the death of their son was caused by electrocution due to a faulty pool light, faulty electrical grounding and faulty bonding for the lighting system.

The wrongful death suit cites four companies responsible for their son’s death:
Click to expand...
 
I'm still learning about bonding, so am in no position to speculate or advise, which is kind'a my following point:

When a "technician" needs to "go back and report back to his HQs and confirm his recommendation," then he shouldn't be recommending anything. But at least he had the smarts to not just "declare" something he doesn't know for sure. If he was qualified to do this work, he should know for sure, and should have told you what James just did. If it's code, it's code, and nobody working on your pool should suggest you circumvent pool electrical code, doesn't matter how good the justification sounds, to him or you, and certainly not because "that's what they typically do."

And based on what I think I'm learning about bonding, his justification doesn't sound good to me, at all! Bonding is there to provide a safety back up, when other things go wrong, which has nothing to do with the age or design or condition of the components of your electrical system. To suggest that one can tear out a bond wire because your light is not that old sounds ridiculous to me. Just as relying on a GFI breaker does. They go out all the time. Think about it: they have a built in testing mechanism!! They are designed and manufactured with a way to tell when they fail!! Because they can fail!!! For someone to get shocked in a pool (James, correct me if I'm wrong here), TWO things have to go wrong: something in the electrical system is or becomes faulty, AND the bonding system is or becomes faulty. So you don't go about removing a component of the bonding system because you think the thing it's protecting you from is new, or not likely to fail, or because it's on a GFI circuit. Uh, that's crazy talk, forgive me for saying.

Was this guy a licensed electrician? One that specializes in pool wiring? And not just a pool guy who needs to go and check with someone else about what to do? Someone else, who may or may not be a qualified electrician, or know any more about what to do than he, or you or me? Who, I'll point out, hasn't actually been on the job site to see for himself what's going on?

Sorry, just pilin' it on to make a point...
 

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Hosertx said:
I called the pool company and they did also feel that the repair may not be easy and referred me to another pool company
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Talk about passing the buck back along to you!

Hosertx said:
They pointed out that the bonding wire could have been been jarred and broken during the plastering of the pool.
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"Not our fault!"


Is it any wonder the pool business has such a bad reputation?
 
I suspect that the connection probably just corroded off.

Maybe the service people noticed it and maybe they didn't.

If they did see it, they probably didn't want to deal with it because there's no easy answer.

The problem now is what to do to fix it?
 
Update: HQ agreed with the technician's recommendation to remove the bonding wire. The lug has broken off and there's no way to re-attach the bonding wire, except for replacing the entire niche, which requires chiseling into the pool and deck. The head of service said that, in his experience, most bonding wires are removed when new lights are installed in old niches, usually because they can't fish the new light wire through the conduit with a bonding wire sharing the same conduit. When I asked whether this was to code, he admitted it was not.

Now, I did further research and found an inline anode and water bond accessory that bonds the water. It was recommended for those who replaced their lights with plastic or nichless LED lights. Pool Defender® - CMP If I remove the bonding wire from the niche, but add this inline anode and water bond accessory, would that essentially provide an extra layer of safety that I'm losing by removing the bonding wire? I understand it may still not be to code.
 
Based on the description of others on how those niches are bonded, you didn't defeat the bond of the niche by cutting or removing the stranded bond wire. There should be a bond lug on the outside of the niche that is connected to the #8 wire that runs throughout your system. The wire you're removing connects the bond of the niche back to the j-box. That's the component that is currently detached from the bonding grid, not the niche. You can confirm this by looking in the j-box. Does the big stranded wire terminate in there? Or is it connected to another, big stranded wire that runs out of the box. The smaller ground wires (sometimes green-jacketed) don't count. The bond wire is supposed to be a certain gauge (8 or larger I believe).

Now, that is assuming that (1) I know what I'm talking about! and (2) that the bond wire connected to the outside of the niche is still intact and functioning, which is a big if, considering the internal bond wire corroded off. There must be some way to test that, but it might not be possible with water in the pool (not sure).

That's why I had asked in a previous post if you could run a bond wire from somewhere else in the grid, into the j-box, to replace the bond wire that is broken off in the niche.

I'm hoping JamesW can confirm or correct...

I don't believe the bonding anode will make up for the broken wire in the niche. It may have its own advantages and further advance your pool's bonding grid in some way, I don't know about that.
 
The light niche should be bonded from the outside. The metal niche provides the water bond.

Unfortunately, the code is what it is.

For a service firm to knowingly remove something required by code is extremely risky and it exposes them to a lot of liability if anything goes wrong. They could potentially face charges up to criminally negligent homicide if someone gets electrocuted and dies.

I would make sure that the pool is code compliant.

You could replace the conduit from the niche with metal conduit. That would not require the niche to be replaced.

You could replace the light with a listed low voltage lighting system.

Maybe get an electrician to see what options you have.

It's a similar situation to replacing the gfi breaker to the light with a regular breaker because the hardware store didn't have a gfi breaker. The person might say "well, it's not up to code, but it will probably be ok."

Ultimately, the code exists so that people don't just do whatever they want. No one has the authority to ignore the code. The authority having jurisdiction might be able to issue an exemption, but they would probably require an expert to approve the exemption.
 
Dirk - per your question " if you could run a bond wire from somewhere else in the grid, into the j-box, to replace the bond wire that is broken off in the niche."

All of the metal pool equipment seems to be bonded (copper wires bolted on to each one). Is it as simple as running right gauge wire from one of the pool equipment's bonding wires and including an in-line water bonding aparatus for good measure?

The irony of all this, from my research, is that many if not most older pools are likely not bonded correctly or the bonding has failed, and many new ones aren't either. Ignorance of all this would have been bliss. Just rip it out. Probably time to call an electrician who will, for liability reasons as well, tell me I have to replace my light niche.
 
Use any of my thoughts on the subject with caution, as I'm still learning about bonding.

It's not exactly clear to me what the internal wire is doing. If the niche is bonded externally as JamesW is describing, then what is the internal wire for? All I can surmise is that it's connecting the j-box to the bonding grid. That notion is based on a picture I found here, which I cannot now find, which shows a big (8 gauge?) stranded wire very clearly coming out of the conduit that heads to the niche, and attaching to a bus bar. That bar also has other ground wires attached to it: the ground coming from the pad, and the ground that runs to the light. Presumably the bar is connected to the j-box. But the big stranded wire ends in that box, which led me to believe it is not "delivering" the bond to the niche, but rather "receiving" it. That's why I asked if you could see your bond wire in your j-box, and if it runs on anywhere else or does it terminate inside the j-box. Is your j-box connected to any metal conduit? Or just PVC? If the bond wire terminates in the j-box, and the box has only PVC conduit running to it, that would indicate to me the same set up, that the bond wire that came loose is not actually bonding the niche to the grid, but rather the j-box to the niche. If in your j-box, the bond wire is only attached to the box, and maybe some other smaller gauge ground wires, then maybe all you have to do is bond the j-box in some other way. But I have no idea if that would satisfy code or not. The way JamesW described it, the wire has to come from the niche.

Where JamesW lost me was why a 12V light would make a difference. I would have guessed that the metal in the niche, and in the j-box, would still need to be bonded, regardless of what voltage was available in any of the other wires. But that just further demonstrates my ignorance on the subject, so, again, I'm only suggesting questions to ask of a licensed electrician, not offering any solutions.
 
(a) Metal Conduit. Metal conduit shall be approved and shall be of brass or other approved corrosion-resistant metal.
(b) Nonmetallic Conduit. Where a nonmetallic conduit is used, an 8 AWG insulated solid or stranded copper bonding jumper shall be installed in this conduit unless a listed low-voltage lighting system not requiring grounding is used. The bonding jumper shall be terminated in the forming shell, junction box or transformer enclosure, or ground-fault circuit-interrupter enclosure. The termination of the 8 AWG bonding jumper in the forming shell shall be covered with, or encapsulated in, a listed potting compound to protect the connection from the possible deteriorating effect of pool water.
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Listed low voltage lighting is exempt. Metal conduit would satisfy the requirement.

It seems like there is some uncertainty as to whether the wire is intended to be a ground, bond or both.

I would avoid replacing the niche if at all possible.
 

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