Very high results

[HardTrance9]

Hi,

I just tested the pool labeled "SG" on my signature and I am in shock...



Well I am in shock as I never in my super short experience read this results... These come from an operator (no real knowledge as I can say) on pool balancing.. just plumbing knowledge... and I believe he added lots of "stuff" (salt and other things) according to what "he believed" was right... ouch!

Also the pool cell (aqua rite turbo cell) seems not to work properly.. don't know if it's the sensor or what, but it always shows 1,500 Salt.. but the Salt Strips from Aqua Check showed completely different today...

Results:

Pool capacity: 13,493 US gallons
Surface: plaster
FC: 0 ??
(after adding the R-870 powder, the water didn't change to pink. Actually it looked foggy as it happens with the CYA test)
CC: 0
TC: 0
pH: 8.0
TA: 480
CH: 980
CYA: 100+ (looks like 140 to me.. pictures attached using the Taylor K-2006)
Temp: 80ºF
Salt: OUT OF SCALE!

The maximum reading on the bottle for the strip Salt test is 7.8 indicating 7,160 salt, but the strip showed 8.6 !!! So don't know what the salt level is for real. I think it could be around 9,000?? There are no bugs living there! Well there was one of those black bug swimmers.. but only one... I wonder if this pool is like the Dead Sea (tons of salt).. Looks like a lot of salt is helping the chlorine.. but I am worried about the tubes, pump, etc. Don't know how bad it can be.

I took over this pool now 100%. I said thank you to the other guy (who was there before and just stayed there meanwhile I catched up with other things).

The strange thing is that some people were using this pool and had no complaints at all. Actually it looks crystal clear a very clean. Don't have more pics, but one is attached too.

I am also attaching other pictures where I am not sure if the sun caused the discoloration on the filter and other parts (they look shiny) or because of the water balance issue? (or both?). All this machinery is not covered and gets direct sunligh, which I think it's not good, but can't tell as I am not an expert on this either.

Any interpretation and recommendation? I input everything on the pool calculator, but would like expert advise...

1) I belive the first thing to do is empty 70% of the water? Wow, that's a lot.. I think I am going to be known as the "pool drainer" over here.... (can't do it until the end of November because the house is occupied.. any suggestions so the guests will not get disturbed? ugggh...)

2) Will try to get Cal-Hypo over here.. 65% or 73% if possible?

3) Then will try to lower the pH to 7.5? with Muriatic acid?

I there any possibility that these results are wrong? hehe.. .Don't think so...

Well, will have to work hard to get this pool back to a good level...

Phew... any orientation or suggested steps would be very appreciated as always...

 

[HardTrance9]

DE filter with some white powder?? calcium? chlorine? sun? does not show easily.. soon other pic

If you look below the gauge.. you can barely see something there.. sorry... soon will update..

 

[polyvue]

Results:

Pool capacity: 13,493 US gallons
Surface: plaster
FC: 0 ??
CC: 0
TC: 0
pH: 8.0
TA: 480
CH: 980
CYA: 100+ (looks like 140 to me...)
Temp: 80ºF
Salt: OUT OF SCALE!

1) I belive the first thing to do is empty 70% of the water?

2) Will try to get Cal-Hypo over here.. 65% or 73% if possible?

3) Then will try to lower the pH to 7.5? with Muriatic acid?

• 1 - Agree that draining is the best course of action with CH & CYA so high.
  
  2 - Cal-Hypo may not be a good solution here because it adds calcium (in addition to the chlorine.) If this isn't a SWG pool, increase FC through the use of liquid chlorine (6%, 10% or 12% sodium hypochlorite.)
  
  3- Draining/refilling may reduce pH depending on make-up water. Recommend re-testing pH after refilling pool. Then, if the pH is still too high, muriatic acid is a good response.

• EDIT (revised 11-10-2009 11:42 pm PST)
  
  #2 - Use liquid chlorine or bleach until Free Chlorine (FC) => 5 ppm and the SWG is working again. Avoid Cal-Hypo because it adds calcium.
  
  END-EDIT

 

[chem geek]

With a saturation index of at least +1.2, I am quite amazed that you haven't had any cloudiness or obvious scaling in the pool -- you should double check the plaster pool surfaces to see if they feel particularly rough. The pool SWG cell probably isn't working because it's probably clogged with calcium carbonate scale.

 

[HardTrance9]

With a saturation index of at least +1.2, I am quite amazed that you haven't had any cloudiness or obvious scaling in the pool -- you should double check the plaster pool surfaces to see if they feel particularly rough. The pool SWG cell probably isn't working because it's probably clogged with calcium carbonate scale.

I am attaching two pictures (more to come later) of the spa... This was done before I took on this pool...

What does it look like? Like chlorine burned the surface? or like too much calcium ate the surface? It is hard to remove..

Also some algae is growing in the corners...

In the other pictures I will attach later, you will be able so see how the walls have some sort of "whitening" areas.. I guess could be caused by the high CH too?

The pool surface looks like it is hard sand rock... but don't know if this is also called a "plaster" type?

Today I added 3.3 liters of sodium hypoclorite 5.25 - 5.50%... I think the only bad thing (among the other bad things) is that it will raise the salt again...
http://www.alen.com.mx/alenamericas/MSD ... %20%20.pdf

Will test again tomorrow morning before the house gets occupied the FC level and pH.. (or any other you guys suggest me to test).

Can't drain it till the end of November..... so I guess I will just have to monitor the FC and pH until then?

 

[HardTrance9]

Forgot to answer to Chemgeek that the walls feel the same almost everywhere as they are like hard sand type...

Could not feel the difference on the "roughness" on many spots..

Sorry for this questions, but don't know the term of "scaling" in this context. Could someone help me understand better what would this be, how does it look, etc.? I searched on the pool school, but didn't find answers for this questions (only to be aware on high pH and high CH).

While testing with a Taylor K-2006 kit that I found I noticed it says "High". I tried to looked in the forum and other places for the difference of High vs. Low test kits but couldn't find answers. Anyone knows about this?

:?:

Pictures I took were bad... so won't post them now.. have to take new ones.. sorry

 

[polyvue]

Sorry for this questions, but don't know the term of "scaling" in this context. Could someone help me understand better what would this be, how does it look, etc.? I searched on the pool school, but didn't find answers for this questions (only to be aware on high pH and high CH).

• CH (and high pH) contributes to the CSI (Calcite Saturation Index) which indicates the tendency for plaster damage or calcium scaling. Scaling can take the form of calcium formations on pool surfaces and equipment. A plaster pool should have CH levels between 250 and 350 if possible. You lower calcium by replacing water. The deposited calcium (scale) hardens readily and becomes very, very difficult to remove.
  
  Source: Most of this excerpted from ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

Can't drain it till the end of November..... so I guess I will just have to monitor the FC and pH until then?

It's unfortunate that you can't drain and refill sooner; we will try to help you address some of the problems you have with this pool but it will be more difficult-- and I doubt there's any clever solution to this until you're ready to drain at least 1/2 of the pool volume.

Last test results for "SG" reported Nov. 10 2009

Plaster pool - 13,493 US gallons

FC: 0 ??
CC: 0
TC: 0
pH: 8.0
TA: 480
CH: 980
CYA: 100+ (looks like 140 to me)
Salt: OUT OF SCALE!

The maximum reading on the bottle for the strip Salt test is 7.8 indicating 7,160 salt, but the strip showed 8.6 !!! So don't know what the salt level is for real.

First thing--if you expect that people will be swimming in this pool--is to fix pH and Free Chlorine. I would recommend re-testing the following values:

• pH
  FC
  CC
  CYA

For the CYA test only, dilute the pool sample water with an equal amount of distilled or bottled water so that you're testing with 1/2 pool water and 1/2 fresh water. Fill the CYA mixing vial with this half and half mixture up to the 7 mL mark, then add R-0013 Cyanuric Acid Reagent to 14 mL mark and perform the test as usual. Double the CYA ppm result. For example, if the dot disappears at 60 ppm, you'll want to write down 120 ppm.

Then post back these results.

If you'd like, you can enter the new test results in the Pool Calculator

 

[HardTrance9]

This is a late answer... but still have a lot to do with this one..

I am waiting for the CYA kit I ordered as we ran out of it so I haven't been able to test the CYA as suggested by Polyvue...

The people using the pool last week (now are gone) heated up the pool and after 6 days, the pool started to show some greenish algae at the bottom.. This never happened before (1 month) no matter the levels were so crazy like they are now.. but also the pool was not heated up before either..

Does heating up + daily usage by humans of the pool could cause algae to grow a little?

The last day we added some bleach and brushed and it was back to "normal" and usable for the last day..

In the meanwhile I tried to find if this pool had some sort of valve or exit to drain it, but no... it doesn't!! (as explained in the other thread need-your-help-only-have-until-dec-2nd-2009-t18056.html)..

With the recommendations of JoshU I went to find out how much does a submergible pump costs and found two options:

1/3 HP costs around $95 USD here
1/2 HP costs around $150 USD here

Does anyone know the advantage of getting one of 1/3 HP vs. 1/2 HP for real? Do you think it worths to get the 1/2? Don't know anything about mechanics and if there is big difference on the pumping power to empty faster (hrs.) a pool..
so we can lower the CYA, CH, TA and everything that is wrong with this pool (SG on signature) before the 20th of Dec...

Thanks again as always...

 

[polyvue]

I use a 1/4 hp pump that works fine with a standard diameter garden hose. A 1/2 hp pump is probably too much pump for a single hose, so you'll probably do fine with the 1/3 hp.

 

[HardTrance9]

I use a 1/4 hp pump that works fine with a standard diameter garden hose. A 1/2 hp pump is probably too much pump for a single hose, so you'll probably do fine with the 1/3 hp.

Ok, thanks for sharing your experience... helps much!

 

[HardTrance9]

Hi again,

So finally the pool was drained with the 1/3 HP submergible pump... first with a hose but after watching that the pressure was very low, had to improve and use the pool hose for vacuuming .. hope it's not bad to do this.

So now the pool is refilling SLOWLY... since last Friday with the automatic system (floater)... put an extra hose to accelerate the filling for one day and now the pool is 1/3 full... need more water! but that's difficult here... guests arriving on the 20th so I have to hurry up with this one...

Questions I didn't ask before are:

1) After draining 80% of the pool and refilling, what should I take care off to balance it again properly while it's getting full?

2) If it doesn't fill up quick enough I might need to get a water truck... water quality will be difficult to know.. Any suggestions if this has to be done to have the pool balanced?

3) How can I know if the filter is actually a DE filter or Sand filter? By pictures on the Pool School I saw the same filters labeled as "DE" filters.. but when asking about it in other thread where I posted different view points of the filter the comments were that it was not a DE filter.. Could you help me out here? Wouldn't want to screw up all this refilling, re-balancing process which we have been waiting for quite a bit and finally could be started..

The filter is a Pentair one...

Some pics on the filter again... Thanks!

 

[polyvue]

1) After draining 80% of the pool and refilling, what should I take care off to balance it again properly while it's getting full?

First things first: Fill the pool, then test the water (all tests) Adjust pH and chlorine (FC). Then make other adjustments, as needed

2) If it doesn't fill up quick enough I might need to get a water truck... water quality will be difficult to know.. Any suggestions if this has to be done to have the pool balanced?

Consider adding another hose or two. If you're close to the neighbors, pay them a little something for the water and bring a hose from next door. You don't want to take a chance with water that might have 1000 ppm calcium or is in other ways out of balance.

3) How can I know if the filter is actually a DE filter or Sand filter? By pictures on the Pool School I saw the same filters labeled as "DE" filters.. but when asking about it in other thread where I posted different view points of the filter the comments were that it was not a DE filter.. Could you help me out here? Wouldn't want to screw up all this refilling, re-balancing process which we have been waiting for quite a bit and finally could be started..

My guess is that it's a cartridge filter (I don't see a backwash valve). Look for a label on the side and try to identify the model.

The filter is a Pentair one...

Some pics on the filter again... Thanks!

 

[JasonLion]

Once the pool is full you should get a full set of water test results and post them. That will tell us what will need to be adjusted.

While you are waiting for the pool to fill, you should do a visual inspection of the SWG cell, and if there are white chalky deposits it will need to be cleaned.

 

[HardTrance9]

Polyvue and Jason, many thanks for your recommendations. Will do so and let you know asap.

Though I haven't opened a cell yet, will hav to figure how to do this with the manuals Polyvue posted a while ago (Aqua Rite - Hayward site). :study:

The cell was cleaned about a 1.5 months ago but didn't seem to work. Then a comment from Duraleigh (I think) was that maybe due to the high levels of CH the cell could be clogged and have very bad readings.

Will try to check on this asap too and post back.

 

[HardTrance9]

Hi,

The pool is now full finally. Did the full testing and there are the numbers after filling just with city water:

FC: 0
CC: 0
pH: 8.0
TA: 210 (before 480!)
CH: 150 (before 980!)
CYA: 20 (tube got full but still could see the black dot... maybe CYA is 10? or zero?) pics attached with the tube FULL from top and sideways..
SALT: 370
Aqua Rite computer display: Inspect cell and Check Salt

Did not opened the cell yet as don't know how to this yet. Will read today how to open it and have a look at it. Also don't know how to clean it if needed. Any easy suggestions if they exist?

What would you recommend to do now with this pool?

Polyvue said to adjust chlorine and pH but I'm not sure if I have to adjust it to the normal level? Sorry for the obvious question, just don't know if some "special" targets should be set when one just refilled a pool.

I was also thinking in spreading some salt but I think I have to wait until I have a better idea on what's going on with the cell inspection?

Thanks as always!

 

[PaulR]

Polyvue said to adjust chlorine and pH but I'm not sure if I have to adjust it to the normal level? Sorry for the obvious question, just don't know if some "special" targets should be set when one just refilled a pool.

No, use the normal levels. Although with the TA so high, you are likely to see the pH keep going back up for a while.

The CYA tube looks pretty clear, I'd assume there's essentially no CYA.
--paulr

 

[JasonLion]

The SWG cell is typically connected to the rest of the plumbing with unions. You disconnect the unions and look in through the pipe connections to see what you can of the cell. Ideally you should see several either silver or black metal plates with nothing on them (ignoring any support brackets). If you see any white chalky buildup on the plates, the cell needs to be cleaned.

Cleaning should follow the manufacturers directions. Typically those include soaking in a diluted solution of muriatic acid for as long as the solution bubbles or foams. 4 parts water to one part acid is a typical dilution, but you really should check you manual.

For a start on suggested chemical levels, see this article at pool school. You want to lower PH, raise FC manually for now, and get started on adding salt and CYA (but don't over do).

 

[HardTrance9]

Ok, many thanks for your comments! Thanks for the reference Jason... I will someday remember which files contain what I need to look at.

Another question:

At this point with almost no CYA, zero chlorine, etc., could I use trichlor for now? I have a lot (bought it befero joining the forum) and would like to use it, but only if you guys recommend it. I would think on maybe using a little ro raise CYA maybe to 30-40? and then only use clorox bleach 6% (finally found some here!, the other one was 5.25%)

So summarizing, please correct me if I am wrong or there is a better order:

1) Before adding anything, check the cell and clean it if needs to be done
2) Add salt to raise to a level of 2,500-3,000 ppm
3) Lower TA with Muriatic Acid until it gets down to 100? or 80 better?
4) At the same time pH will go down, until I get to the 7.5 mark
5) Then add trichlor (or only bleach; question above) to raise CYA to maybe 30-40 and FC to 5 maybe?
6) Test and post results

Today I finally noticed that the pump leaks from the bottom. Any thoughts on this? Also one of the valves leaks a little, so it will have to be replaced.

The filter is a cartdrige Pentair filter.. I thinks is the model 420. Will replace the non working gauge. I saw a gauge kit for this filter here for $25 USD...

Thanks!

 

[polyvue]

I'm a bit cautious about doing too many things at once, so I recommend following order of Jason's advice:

1) Adjust pH to recommended level
2) Adjust FC to recommended level
3) Check/clean SWG (anytime, really)

When you've got these things in order -- both FC and pH steady for a day or two, and the SWG ready to operate -- then add salt, sweeping it toward the main drain and running the pump for 24 hours so the SWG cell is happy. Finally, determine what level of CYA and TA you want to achieve.

Would I recommend using Trichlor pucks to increase CYA and chlorine simultaneously? No, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea! I'd be worried about overdosing, so decide in advance how much CYA you're going to need and pull the Trichlor pucks out BEFORE you get to your goal...

Someone more qualified will respond to your question about a leaking pump.

 

[HardTrance9]

I'm a bit cautious about doing too many things at once, so I recommend following order of Jason's advice:

1) Adjust pH to recommended level
2) Adjust FC to recommended level
3) Check/clean SWG (anytime, really)

When you've got these things in order -- both FC and pH steady for a day or two, and the SWG ready to operate -- then add salt, sweeping it toward the main drain and running the pump for 24 hours so the SWG cell is happy. Finally, determine what level of CYA and TA you want to achieve.

Would I recommend using Trichlor pucks to increase CYA and chlorine simultaneously? No, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea! I'd be worried about overdosing, so decide in advance how much CYA you're going to need and pull the Trichlor pucks out BEFORE you get to your goal...

Someone more qualified will respond to your question about a leaking pump.

Ok, great. Thanks for your thoughts. It's good to know as tomorrow we will start with this pool in the morning.

I guess I will use Trichlor (if nobody says the contrary) to raise CYA maybe to 30 max. But will wait and see what other also think about this hehe..