Very high results

[PaulR]

Trichlor is acidic, so it will add FC and CYA as well as putting downward pressure on pH. However it dissolves relatively slowly so while these effects are all in the direction you want, they won't happen overnight. When I use tabs (when I go on vacation) I figure they will last about a week.

This is the SG pool, you said; in 13,500 gallons, each 8oz of trichlor will add about 2.5 to CYA. If you are targeting CYA 30 then you'd need to use probably 80 oz total (assuming there is a little CYA left over now). Or if you think in metric, around 2.25 kilos.

You will still need to monitor pH and FC while you're using the trichlor, to make sure you're not going too far in one direction or the other. It isn't worth testing CYA again until you think you should be near your target.
--paulr

 

[HardTrance9]

PaulR many thanks for your recommendations. They will be very useful for tomorrow.

Yesterday we added only bleach 6% and the FC got to 5.5 and reduced the pH from 8 to 7.5

Today we checked and the FC was 3.5; pH was stable at 7.5

Tomorrow we will check again the FC and will start the procedure (felt like a MD hehe) with the trichlor. We will only
add a maximum of 1 kilo, will test the pH and TA, will wait 30 min. and test again FC, pH and TA to monitor and ajust pH.

My guess is that we will have to add some soda ash (sodium carbonate) to raise the pH, and monitor the TA because it was 220 before (we added Muriatic Acid to get the pH to 7.5 but couldn't test the TA that day, but should be lower).

I will post results late afternoon tomorrow..

Thanks a lot! I can't leave out the feeling of excitement on doing and learning about pools with your great help guys...

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

FYI the trichlor will slowly lower the PH AND the TA, because it is acidic. So keep that in mind.

Borax will raise the PH and affect the TA very little, but using soda Ash will raise both, not sure you want that. Do you have access to Borax?

Adding simply bleach should not cause the PH to go down....usually it's the opposite. I suspect possible testing error on one of the tests?

 

[HardTrance9]

FYI the trichlor will slowly lower the PH AND the TA, because it is acidic. So keep that in mind.

Borax will raise the PH and affect the TA very little, but using soda Ash will raise both, not sure you want that. Do you have access to Borax?

Adding simply bleach should not cause the PH to go down....usually it's the opposite. I suspect possible testing error on one of the tests?

We don't have access to Borax down here, so we will have to play a little with the soda ash and monitor de pH..

Sorry If I confused you on my explanation... the pH went down after we added MA and once the pH got to 7.5 we added bleach..

On daily FC tests the progress was like this after adding 5.5 liters of clorox 6%:

FC: 5.5
FC: 3.5
FC: 2.5 (today)

We added 1,000 grams of trichlor, waited 30 min. and the results were:

FC: 2.5 no change? maybe takes more time to show the effect?
pH: 7.5 no change also
TA: went down from 220 to 190

 

[polyvue]

It depends on the format of the Trichlor. I've found that the powdered form tends to boost chlorine and CYA much more quickly. If you're putting Trichlor pucks (tabs) in a floating dispenser, you'll see a much slower increase to FC and CYA. That's why I suggested taking Trichlor tabs out before you reach the CYA goal... it will continue to rise for several days after you've removed the pucks. The quickest way to raise FC is through application of liquid chlorine (with the pump/filter running, of course.)

 

[HardTrance9]

It depends on the format of the Trichlor. I've found that the powdered form tends to boost chlorine and CYA much more quickly. If you're putting Trichlor pucks (tabs) in a floating dispenser, you'll see a much slower increase to FC and CYA. That's why I suggested taking Trichlor tabs out before you reach the CYA goal... it will continue to rise for several days after you've removed the pucks. The quickest way to raise FC is through application of liquid chlorine (with the pump/filter running, of course.)

Interesting. In this case we are using powder not tablets. Tomorrow we will test again and check the effect of trichlor.

Also will try to inspecto today or tomorrow the cell.

 

[HardTrance9]

Well, the trichlor did an unexpected effect on the pool because I didn't take the right decisions plus have very little experience with trichlor..

First added in the morning 2 kilos of trichlor a couple of days ago. Tested the water in the afternoon that same day and FC and CYA we not giving any readings. FC was supposed to go up to 35 and CYA to 30's as I commented before.

So, we added one kilo more, total 3 kilos (2 kilos in the morning, 1 kilo in the late afternoon, Friday 18th).

On Saturday morning these were the results:

FC: 41
CC: 0
pH: 8.0
TA: 180 (here something strange happened. The solution didn't turn red/pink, instead it turned light yellow? :?: )
CH: 230 (here also when the solution changed into "blue" it was a very light blue, almost white)
TA and CH were tested twice...
CYA: 70
Temp: 22ºC
Salt: 810

- Added some MA 33% to lower the pH and added some salt (have to buy more later; ran out already).
- Also was trying to check the cell, but as the FC was too high, I had to abort the cell inspection. I just unscrewed it and the screwed it back to where it was (vertically).

- As we couldn't get Sodium Thiosulfate to lower quickly the chlorine level, the only thing I thought we could do, was to empty almost 1/3 of the pool so I would have enough time to refill for Sunday (today) morning and the guests could use the pool.

- After doing this, I just came back and these are the results:

FC: 35.5 (before 41)
CC: 0
pH: 7.2 (before 8.0)
TA: 200 and again it was yellow at the end.. is this normal? (before 180, the city water adds TA, at the beginning of this thread was 780!)
CH: 200 (before 230, but at the begining of this thread it was 980!)
CYA: 50 (before 70)
Temp: 22ºC
Salt: 1,230 (before 810)

So empyting the water less than 1/3 aprox. this time didn't help much. Actually some trichlor powder was still on the bottom of the pool because on Friday night, there was a power shortage and the time on the computer got wrong (the program remained ok) so the pump ran only like 3 hours instead of 8.

So after refilling and leaving the pump all night until today those were the levels. Meanwhile I was there I put the hose in the pool to fill in some city water "trying" to dilute the FC a little.

At least the CYA wen't down from 70 to 50 so that should a little to lower the FC with time. Also set up the chlorinator to 10%, but remeber that we have a problem with this cell so I don't know if it will do anything at all.

Ann by the way, today that I went to check on everything, this time the chlorinator Aquarite was showing "No Flow" (steady light, not flashing), and there it says that has to do with some Delay on the Flow, but I don't understand why it shows that?

Before and after we drained almost 90% of the pool, the chlorinator diplayed No Flow for some minutes and then it didn't show that anymore. Also, as before, after refilling the pool it showed again "Inspect Cell" and diplayed a wrong reading on the salt of 1,400 (salt strip was around 9,000 and after draining was 810, but the chlorinator always marked 1,400).

Now the chlorinator marks Salt = 0 and there are no other readings because I think it has to do with the "No Flow" warning. Didn't have the time to read on the manual (yes yes yes I know but will read asap..)

This happened after I "re-installed the cell" (I didn't take out the metal parts nor did any cleaning.

Going back to reducing the FC I guess now I just have to try to find some Sodium Thiosulfate right? I was trying to find another name for it and found "Salicilic Acid" but I am not sure it is the same as the S. Th.

Any ides on how to lower the FC in this pool? or where do you usually find the sodium thiosulfate or under what names? If I get some, how much should I get and how much should I add?

EDIT: just found that the Sodium Thiosulfate is also called: ANTICHLOR, SODOTHIOL, SULFOTHIORINE, AMETOX and that it should be used : 1 drop for each liter of water. Do you know if this is correct?

Well, sorry for the long post... jjust noticed it got a lot of words... :?

Thanks for any help.. and spanking for me not doing things correctly, but well.. still in the learning curve...

NEW EDIT: just found very little antichlor.. those used for home acquariums... instructions say 1 drop for every 2 liters. Have two kind of bottles (took all available from the grocery store):

- 6 bottles with 40 ml (1.5 oz aprox) (drop type)
- 2 bottles with 45 ml (2 oz) (drop type)
- Total of 230 ml or 8 oz

Does anyone has a rough idea on how many drops you could get from each bottle?

200 drops per bottle (1.5 oz?) maybe?

Anyways I think is to little to lower the FC ?

Suppose 200 drops per bottle x 8 bottles = 1,600 drops x 2 (ratio 1:2) = 3,200 liters will be affected to lower the FC out of a total fo 51,000 lts (SG pool on signature). Unfortunately they won't re-stock with those antichlor until the end of the next week. but hopefully it will lower a little the FC (3,200 out of 51,000 = 6.3%, so FC would be down 6.3% ? is this a logical way of estimating this? Current FC is 35.5 minus 6.3% gives us a final FC of 33? Doesn't sound that good...

 

[Ohm_Boy]

You can't really trust PH readings when FC is over around 10. I would not make any PH adjustments based on readings taken while FC is elevated.

 

[HardTrance9]

You can't really trust PH readings when FC is over around 10. I would not make any PH adjustments based on readings taken while FC is elevated.

Ok, will remember this comment. Thanks!

I think I might be able to get antichlor at the pharmacy, but still reading before leaving to the supermaket. Also read you can get it at pet stores, but here there ain't any + is Sunday so many places are closed in this small town :grrrr:

 

[PaulR]

You can also use hydrogen peroxide to reduce FC, if that's easier to find. I have this in my notes:

So to lower the FC by 5 ppm in 390 gallons, you would use 4 fluid ounces (1/2 cup) of 3% hydrogen peroxide or 1.8 teaspoons of 35% hydrogen peroxide.

This is the SG pool, right? So 13.5K/390 = call it 32 for simplicity, 32 x 4oz = 128oz = 1 gallon.

And I guess the real lesson is, give the trichlor time to dissolve!
--paulr

 

[JasonLion]

Very high FC levels tend to change the colors you see in the TA and CH tests. The results should still be valid.

Antichlor is a generic term, it might actually be any of several different chemicals. The dosage depends on which particular chemical the product you purchased contains, the volume of the pool, and how far you want to lower the FC level. The dosage you quoted is for removing chlorine from tap water so that it is suitable for aquariums. Tap water will never have FC levels as high as what you are reporting.

The FC level will come down over time if the pool is exposed to sunlight. With CYA around 50, a full day of direct sunlight, and swimmable water temperatures, you should lose about 50% of your FC level per day. Colder water, higher CYA levels, and less sunlight all slow down the process.

You need to be much more careful about calculating and measuring amounts of the various chemicals. If you continue to make mistakes, like adding way too much trichlor, you will have trouble getting things under control and will eventually damage the pool.

I can't quite follow your explanation of what the "No Flow" light is doing. It is normal for the SWG to show no flow for several seconds after it is turned on. After that the no flow light should go off. If the no flow light is on when the pump has been on for a while you might simply need to clean the filter, or there may be something more complex going wrong.

 

[HardTrance9]

You can also use hydrogen peroxide to reduce FC, if that's easier to find. I have this in my notes:

So to lower the FC by 5 ppm in 390 gallons, you would use 4 fluid ounces (1/2 cup) of 3% hydrogen peroxide or 1.8 teaspoons of 35% hydrogen peroxide.

This is the SG pool, right? So 13.5K/390 = call it 32 for simplicity, 32 x 4oz = 128oz = 1 gallon.

And I guess the real lesson is, give the trichlor time to dissolve!
--paulr

Many thanks for sharing your notes and calculation PaulR!

I belive hydrogen peroxide is much more easier to get over here. Do you know if adding hydrogen peroxide only reduces the FC? Is there any known effect on the other indicatord when adding this?

And yes, believe, lesson learned... I though the powder would disolve faster than the tablets, but also didn't expect the CYA to raise that much (70 instead of 30 the before draining the 1/3 yesterday).

Willl keep you posted, thanks again!

 

[HardTrance9]

Very high FC levels tend to change the colors you see in the TA and CH tests. The results should still be valid.

Antichlor is a generic term, it might actually be any of several different chemicals. The dosage depends on which particular chemical the product you purchased contains, the volume of the pool, and how far you want to lower the FC level. The dosage you quoted is for removing chlorine from tap water so that it is suitable for aquariums. Tap water will never have FC levels as high as what you are reporting.

The FC level will come down over time if the pool is exposed to sunlight. With CYA around 50, a full day of direct sunlight, and swimmable water temperatures, you should lose about 50% of your FC level per day. Colder water, higher CYA levels, and less sunlight all slow down the process.

You need to be much more careful about calculating and measuring amounts of the various chemicals. If you continue to make mistakes, like adding way too much trichlor, you will have trouble getting things under control and will eventually damage the pool.

I can't quite follow your explanation of what the "No Flow" light is doing. It is normal for the SWG to show no flow for several seconds after it is turned on. After that the no flow light should go off. If the no flow light is on when the pump has been on for a while you might simply need to clean the filter, or there may be something more complex going wrong.

Thanks for the color explanation with high FC levels and also with the comments reasuring how the FC will lower per day given certain weather conditions.

I used the pool calculator to estimate how high the FC and CYA could get with trichlor. FC was in range but didn't know that it would remain that high for more time. Thought FC would drop in the same as when adding bleach, but now I know it's not the same. CYA however went higher than the calculator predicted (3,000 grams of trichlor was supposed to raise the CYA to aprox. 50 but went to 70. Considering the last test, maybe the pool had a max. of CYA=10, so the total would be 60, but well anyways, it was a mistake first, to raise the FC so high, and second, to think that trichlor would disolve/dilute as !quick" (considering a CYA=50) as bleach.

The "No Flow" light didn't turn off this time. I think has to do with cell. When I removed the cell from the PVC tubes, I tried to open the compartment, but could only open a small lid where the wire connections were. The wires moved a little but I put them back to where they were. I'm thinking maybe the wires could get loose? Hope I didn't pull the connections therefore the cell is not transmitting any information? Wires looked normal for me. Should I use a multimeter to check if there is some sort of electricity/voltage in the wires? Is there any "easy" way to check if the wires are ok? Never done this before. If anyone have recommendations on this it would really help me out.

Will schedule to clean the cartdrige filter too. It might help as you suggest.

Thanks for all the comments! Eventually will learn bit by bit, hopefully withouth damaging anything. Next time will be more cautious.

 

[chem geek]

Do you know if adding hydrogen peroxide only reduces the FC? Is there any known effect on the other indicatord when adding this?

The hydrogen peroxide will act as a reducing agent to get rid of chlorine and will lower both FC and CC in that regard. The only other effect is the same one that occurs whenever chlorine is consumed/used which is a slight lowering of pH (and ever so slight lowering of TA as well) since this process is acidic. The net reaction is as follows:

HOCl + H₂O₂ ---> O₂(g) + H⁺ + Cl^- + H₂O
Hypochlorous Acid + Hydrogen Peroxide ---> Oxygen Gas + Hydrogen Ion + Chloride Ion + Water

Other than the extra water produced, this is essentially the same reaction that occurs when chlorine breaks down in sunlight.

Richard

 

[HardTrance9]

Do you know if adding hydrogen peroxide only reduces the FC? Is there any known effect on the other indicatord when adding this?

The hydrogen peroxide will act as a reducing agent to get rid of chlorine and will lower both FC and CC in that regard. The only other effect is the same one that occurs whenever chlorine is consumed/used which is a slight lowering of pH (and ever so slight lowering of TA as well) since this process is acidic. The net reaction is as follows:

HOCl + H₂O₂ ---> O₂(g) + H⁺ + Cl^- + H₂O
Hypochlorous Acid + Hydrogen Peroxide ---> Oxygen Gas + Hydrogen Ion + Chloride Ion + Water

Other than the extra water produced, this is essentially the same reaction that occurs when chlorine breaks down in sunlight.

Richard

Richard, thank you very much for the info. Filing your comments into my notes. Tomorrow will go and get the hydrogen peroxide.

 

[polyvue]

The only thing I would add to the above comments is my recommendation to focus on one (1) crisis at a time! Right now I wouldn't bother with the SWG operation until you have the water balanced, the chlorine and CYA and other measurements right where you want them. (As you've discovered, boosting chlorine and CYA with Trichlor can be tricky business, at first measuring too low and then spiking to excessive levels.) Don't give yourself any more work to do than that required... adjust things slow and easy, day by day.

 

[HardTrance9]

The only thing I would add to the above comments is my recommendation to focus on one (1) crisis at a time! Right now I wouldn't bother with the SWG operation until you have the water balanced, the chlorine and CYA and other measurements right where you want them. (As you've discovered, boosting chlorine and CYA with Trichlor can be tricky business, at first measuring too low and then spiking to excessive levels.) Don't give yourself any more work to do than that required... adjust things slow and easy, day by day.

Ok Polyvue. We focus in 1 at a time. It's a good recommendation. I was just concerned that the "No Flow" problem could be also very bad if not fixed asap. Hopefully it's not that bad.

Today checked the FC and from 35.5 yesterday, dropped to 29 today in the morning after adding only 8 oz. of antichlor for house aquariums and after considering that the CYA level is now 50 (before 70).

Searched for peroxide hydrogen (need 4 gallons today, maybe will need 3 if I pour it tomorrow) but in the town I will only get about 1 gallon today.

Will keep you posted..

 

[polyvue]

Ok Polyvue. We focus in 1 at a time. It's a good recommendation. I was just concerned that the "No Flow" problem could be also very bad if not fixed asap. Hopefully it's not that bad.

It could be a flow switch problem but you might also be able to fix it by unplugging everything (cycle the power) for a while and letting the system reset.

Worst case: Your pump is dead-headed because a valve or valve actuator got turned the wrong way, but I think you'd be able to determine this right away by checking the PSI at the filter and making sure there is flow into the skimmer and out from the pool returns.

I see you've added more pools to your signature. The devil's work is never done! (kidding...) :lol:

 

[HardTrance9]

Ok Polyvue. We focus in 1 at a time. It's a good recommendation. I was just concerned that the "No Flow" problem could be also very bad if not fixed asap. Hopefully it's not that bad.

It could be a flow switch problem but you might also be able to fix it by unplugging everything (cycle the power) for a while and letting the system reset.

Worst case: Your pump is dead-headed because a valve or valve actuator got turned the wrong way, but I think you'd be able to determine this right away by checking the PSI at the filter and making sure there is flow into the skimmer and out from the pool returns.

I see you've added more pools to your signature. The devil's work is never done! (kidding...) :lol:

Ok. I will d/l and read the manual to see if there is any instructions there for this case. Unfortunately, the pressure gauge is broken in this filter and sitll don't replace it. Just found last week where to buy it (almost a 2 hour drive, so have to plan on doing other things around for that day too). Skimmer flow is ok. Didn't check the returns.

Will also consider the unplugging/re-setting option.

Two more pools. Smaller ones with smaller skimmers too. Wonder if the pool hose will fit. Work work work.. Good thing is that with forum help I have been able to stabilize now most of the pools. Only one in process (JK on signature) but has minor balancing issues, so now you CAN'T imagine how calm I am compared to before. Everything just in time for the Christmas. And of course I plan on having the pools well balanced from now on.

This SG on signature pool, has the "no flow" problem and just spotted two leaks: 1) pump 2) one of the valves.

They are small leaks but well.. one at a time..

 

[polyvue]

Glad to hear things have calmed down for you.... it will make your holidays more enjoyable.

Pressure gauges are ridiculously inexpensive; if you must drive 2 hours to get one, pick up a boxful and just store them. You'll need to replace them on occasion (not periodically, but if one malfunctions on a pool you manage, it becomes an easy fix.)