How Does Water Temp Affect AA Treatment Results

geekgranny · Oct 5, 2009

I want to do the AA treatment.

The water temp is now 70 F but the puppies are still getting their daily swim time and romp in back yard. When it rains a lot I have to keep them out of the front fenced yard, their usual yard, until the muddy areas get somewhat firm (it does this really fast but we've been having multiple days of rain lately). For our and their sanity they have to have the swim time to burn off energy (lots).

I don't know how much longer they will spend time in the pool but for now the 70 F doesn't seem to bother them. I'll be keeping the pool open all winter.

I would like to wait to do the AA treatment until it is much colder (and when there is not so much rain so they can use the front yard) but if colder water is going to reduce the efficacy of the treatment I don't want that.

The stains, mostly iron, probably from our sand and silt, are from last winter and this summer as I acid washed last fall.

About how long will the pool be unusable for doggie swimming if everything goes ideally?

How will water temp affect the success of treatment?

Thanks, gg=alice

chem geek · Oct 5, 2009

Colder temperatures slow down all chemical reactions so the treatment will take longer. I don't know the specifics of the reaction rates for the treatment, but generally speaking reaction rates increase from 1.5 to 4 times with every 10ÂºC temperature rise (a "rule-of-thumb", that really isn't, is a 2x increase with every 10ÂºC increase). So going from 85ÂºF to say 50ÂºF is about 20ÂºF so could be slower by a factor of 2.2 to 16. If you are able to do the treatment with the water at 70ÂºF, it would be quite a bit faster than at 50ÂºF.

geekgranny · Oct 5, 2009

chem geek said:
Colder temperatures slow down all chemical reactions so the treatment will take longer. I don't know the specifics of the reaction rates for the treatment, but generally speaking reaction rates increase from 1.5 to 4 times with every 10ÂºC temperature rise (a "rule-of-thumb", that really isn't, is a 2x increase with every 10ÂºC increase). So going from 85ÂºF to say 50ÂºF is about 20ÂºF so could be slower by a factor of 2.2 to 16. If you are able to do the treatment with the water at 70ÂºF, it would be quite a bit faster than at 50ÂºF.

Thanks for quick reply. If I do in pretty soon and everything goes ideally how much time am I looking at for keeping doggies out of pool?

There is a pretty good chance that pool water temps will increase as these past three weeks have been very unusually cool and mostly cloudy for three weeks. Very unusual for here this time of year.

BTW..... over past three weeks I've had to lower pool 15" from rain. Also have added probably 15" for backwashing, which is needed more often due to change over to cellulose media and now the new Tracker 4x (vacuum side) that is really clearing the water up because of picking up so much settled silt that, in the past, has been kept in suspension from Polaris. Bummer in that when the pool fills with rain it's usually right after I've backwashed. Also, puppies dragging in less sand and silt because of the moisture on/in ground. My filter, 36 sq ft, which is in great shape and has been adequate till now, is showing itself to be smaller than I want after 23 years because of the extreme increase in silt/sand in pool from puppies. May have to start a money jar for new filter next year. :wink:

Thanks, gg=alice

gg=alice

geekgranny · Oct 22, 2009

All of my supplies should be in today to start the AA treatment. YEA :-D My water temp is only 64 F but I really want to get these stains taken care of ASAP as they are somewhat fresh as I acid washed pool last year about this time.

As asked above, ...... (if) "everything goes ideally" (considering the low water temp) "how much time am I looking at for keeping doggies out of pool?" (if at all)

In reading around TFP I have seen some opinions that, as long as the water is sanitized, it shouldn't hurt people to swim in the pool. I'm certainly not planning on getting in the water, unless one of the puppies knocks me in .... there have been a few close calls :lol: I don't think the sanitation part is going to affect them as, after all, they are the ones who put most of the "contamination" in the pool in the first place AND they have a lot better resistance to most pathogens than humans do. Dogs also ingest fecal contamination when they clean themselves. Surprisingly I don't think they pee in the pool because they frequently get out, go to the back, pee, and then get right back in the pool. :-D

So basically the only issue, as I see it is the low acidity. Wouldn't that be similar to cleansing with vinegar/water or rinsing your hair with vinegar or lemon juice, as was done in past times or, I'll bet, some who still do that?

Also, what about the effect of the low pH on my cleaners? The leaves are really starting to fall. Pool Skim is catching a lot, and I have a second one coming in very soon, hopefully today, but I'm still going to need to keep up with the leaves that make it to the bottom. I'm not too worried about the Polaris but what about the Tracker 4x (same as The Pool Cleaner) and the metal pump inside the Aquabot?

BTW... puppies are not swimming as much now that it is cooler but they do step in or go further down the steps and drink out of the pool. The algaecide I'm going to use is a polyquat 60 formulation and I probably won't need to go overboard with it as the temps are lower, we're having way too many cloudy/rainy days, and there is no algae in my pool. It has taken me what seems like forever to get the Cl down. It's still hovering around 2-4 but I'll just have to deal with that and use more AA.

Thanks, gg=alice

chem geek · Oct 22, 2009

At a pH near 7.0 which is what you'll probably have during the treatment, this could somewhat irritate your eyes, possibly a slight stinging sensation. 7.0 is "neutral", but the pH of tears is closer to 7.5 though it varies by person.

The ascorbic acid treatment does NOT have the pool be sanitized. The treatment requires lowering the FC to 1 ppm or lower and then adding ascorbic acid which will end up bringing the FC to ZERO. Ascorbic acid and chlorine are not compatible -- the ascorbic acid is a reducing agent and will convert the chlorine to chloride (salt). This is why using PolyQuat 60 algicide to at least help prevent algae growth during the treatment.

As for the lower pH on cleaners and other pool materials, it isn't low enough for long enough to be a problem -- not even for plaster.

geekgranny · Oct 25, 2009

I've been doing the treatment for four days now. Water temp 63 F. Started with 4 lbs AA. Yesterday added 3 lbs more. pH 7.2 prior to adding additional AA last night. Noon or so, today, the pH was 6.8. An amazing amount of scale has lifted. My blue and white plaster is getting bluer and bluer. I added (couldn't wait any longer) 40 oz of "extra strength Metal Out". Instructions say, for regular use, to keep pH between 7.2-7.6. I have to run out for a couple of hours and hoping you guys/gals will answer by the time I get back.

Most of the stain is on the scaling, below the line where pool sat for a year (frog pond), late 2007-Aug 2008. (Acid washed Sept 2008 but didn't concentrate on bottom, and process interrupted by my injury.) Pool, did though sit, most of winter 2008-09 without circulation with goo-goobs of organics in bottom. Most of staining appeared spring/summer 2009. I have done testing for stains. The tan stains, on thick scale in shallow end responded to virtually neither the Vit C or puck test. But it is lightening considerably.

I haven't tested pH since adding the Metal Out. Instruction say to keep pool above 7.2. but mine is 6.8. Something is going on since I added Metal Out; more blue appearing and less scaling.

Questions:

1) Will this hurt my dogs to drink it?

2) Should I raise the pH a little or let it stay low?

3 How do I know when to add more Metal Out?

Thanks, gg=alice

chem geek · Oct 25, 2009

I wouldn't have the dogs drink the water during the treatment -- it might be OK, but I wouldn't take a chance.

If 6.8 is the lowest reading on your pH test, then you don't really know if it's lower than that so I'd raise it to 7.0 so you'll know it's not way below 6.8.

It's hard to know when you have used enough Metal Out. If there are still stains left to be dissolved and they seem to have slowed down in dissolving, then I'd add more Metal Out IF that seems to help dissolve more.

geekgranny · Oct 28, 2009

chem geek said:
I wouldn't have the dogs drink the water during the treatment -- it might be OK, but I wouldn't take a chance.

If 6.8 is the lowest reading on your pH test, then you don't really know if it's lower than that so I'd raise it to 7.0 so you'll know it's not way below 6.8.

It's hard to know when you have used enough Metal Out. If there are still stains left to be dissolved and they seem to have slowed down in dissolving, then I'd add more Metal Out IF that seems to help dissolve more.

Thanks much. Sunday, late afternoon and in to evening, we had a MAJOR storm come through. Wind shear at or above 80 mph. Only :roll:

five inches of rain though. We watched our 11' commercial umbrella, secured very well with heavy base, lift up from table a few feet, and hang there and then lift out and over on to deck. No damage at all. One thing that makes it "commercial" is the fiberglass arms. Couldn't really do anything outside until next day except for turning off the pump because of all the leaves and branches in the pool. The two (2) PoolSkims and skimmer were virtually instantly overfilled. Lots of cleanup next day and next day. We didn't loose any trees but major "pruning" done by good old Mother Nature. Fences and trees down out here. Several panels of one neighbors 10 ft, solid fence down. You enter their property from another street. It separates their back from ours and helps to keep fence fighting down between their and our big dogs. Someone is working on it now, thank goodness, but can't let dogs out there. Yesterday was the first time puppies had gotten to romp, since Sunday, and boy did we all need for them to let out some energy. Front yard too muddy.

If I'm remembering the day correctly (hectic here now), I think I added two more 40 oz bottles of Metal Out on Monday or it may have been Sunday before the storm came through. Yesterday, Tuesday, after testing (numbers below) I added about 40 oz of Borax to raise the pH but that was all I did except for more debris clean up and a back wash. (I can hardly wait to put in the new 80 sq ft Filter.) There was a bit of organic staining from leaves but that will be taken care of when I start to add the Cl. I'm wondering if the high acidity accelerated organic staining. I'm not worried about that though; just wondering.

Today just tested the pH and the 40 oz Borax, added yesterday, took the from pH 6.2 or lower to a solid 7.2 today. Pool Calculator called for 56 oz in addition to other things but I only wanted to take the pH up a bit and not do anything else until I am sure I am finished with the AA treatment.

Pool cloudy right now but nice blue. I had the timer set to stop the pump in middle of a.m in case we got some more heavy winds. Here's numbers from yesterday prior to adding Borax. Wondering if I need to add any more Algaecide? All leaves/sticks from storm removed on Monday but of course PoolSkims and Polaris 280 are able to keep up with them as long as the winds are "normal" (20 mph or less). I started with 40oz bottle of WaterWarehouse Algaecide 60 but haven't added any more. I do, though, have one more bottle. Pump running so pool starting to clear some.

Numbers yesterday prior to adding Borax

FC - 0
pH - 6.8 or lower
TA - 40
CH - 220
CYA - 20 (about ????)
Temp - 63
CSI - -1.29

Over past month, or a bit more, I've let lots of water out because of rain ~ 20", backwashing lots with addition of new water, and even lowered about 6K gallons, at one point, to put in fresh water to adjust numbers.

According to PC if I had added 16 oz more Borax (did not do), 169 oz Baking Soda to bring up TA to 70 (did not do), 249 oz calcium chloride to bring up CH to 290 (did not do), 32 oz stabilizer to bring up to 30 (did not do), the SCI would get to -0.76. Considering that I want to go a few more days of AA treatment what should I concentrate on changing right now without throwing the treatment too out but to help protect my old plaster? BTW.. I probably won't know for a few more hours, till the pool clears a bit more, if I want to end the treatment AND maybe I should because of increasing damage to plaster?

There is some pitting in the plaster, in only a couple of spots, where the scale has lifted. Recommendations please.

Huge Thanks, gg=alice