Rehab a IG liner pool in the high desert.

[michael_adkins]

I have to replace my liner and now is the best time to some required maintainance and I have a lot of questions. I am a DIYer, so this will be all my own labor.

The pool a bit more than 20 years old and I inherited with the house. If I were building new, it would probably look a lot different. It just a boring rectangle. I put a lot of information in my "introduction" thread, but I'll post a couple of pictures to start discussion. Here is an overview shot and a close-up if the liner, coping and removed automatic cover.

Several questions?

This pool seems to have concrete sides, al least to where it slopes. I won't know for sure until I take the liner out. If it is concrete, can it be plastered? I'm guessing not, but why not ask?

The coping is bullnosed brick. Below the coping is one course of brick above the liner. It need a complete tuckpoint job. As you can see in the pictures, the automatic pool cover was removed and the hole concreted in. I need to procure at least 20 feet of brick coping, so I'm thinking it would be easier to tear out the complete coping and do something different. I'm thinking pre-cast sections of coping. I'm still learning about available products, but it looks like coping is 2" thick, so I have to do something about the extra course of brick. What do I do there that will look good? Any decking would have to salt water tolerent.

This pool does not have a main drain. Any chance its worth putting in? I do not have chemistry problems, but with our high solar load out here in the desert, we do stratify quite a bit and a bottom drain I'm thinking will stir up the water more. The pool has one skimmer and one return and an extra return that was originally for a pool cleaner (which has since been removed). Piping is 1 1/2".

Since there is substantial wiring in the dirt near where the old automatic cover was, I'm guessing ther used to be a light niche in the deep end. Whether there was or wasn't, is it worth putting it in? Since I have electric, can a light be added without removing the existing deck. If there is a light niche under the liner, I would suspect its in poor shape and would have to be replaced anyway.

The pool deck is in good shape for 20 year old concrete. No heaving. Just a few hairline cracks and minor spalling. I see no need to remove. I do need to deal with the plastic expansion joints. They are pretty much toast. What is the standard repair?

Pool liner? There originally was a receiver fastened to the top of the bond beam prior to the course of brick and coping installation. When this liner was installed, that was abandoned and a vertical receiver was installed. The screws for this receiver are quite rusty and since its plastic, should I just plan of replacing the liner receiver as well? One thing I don't like is that the receiver ends up being proud of the wall 1/2" so the liner isn't exacally up aginst the wall right at the top. I assume this is standard and not a problem, but I'll ask anyway.

Automatic cover? Worth re-installing? Can it be done by a DIYer? Cost? I'm guessing north of $5k, and if so, it ain't going to happen.

Thanks for any and all comments...

 

[waste]

Welcome to TFP!!

While I'd love to answer all of your questions, time constraints keep me to just a couple, for now

I strongly doubt that turning this into a 'crete pool is worth the cost, regardless of the feasibility (but may be possible, if you really want to)

I suspect that your main issue with the deep end is because the pool is "underplumbed" (1 return and 1 skimmer) adding a MD would be substantial work! As an option, I'd activate the pool cleaner line and point it's flow down into the deep end to 'stir things up'

Without a complete overhaul of the pool, this is all I'll cover in this post. If you really want to change the other things you mentioned, I'll happily give my professional advice

 

[michael_adkins]

Welcome to TFP!!

While I'd love to answer all of your questions, time constraints keep me to just a couple, for now

I strongly doubt that turning this into a 'crete pool is worth the cost, regardless of the feasibility (but may be possible, if you really want to)

I suspect that your main issue with the deep end is because the pool is "underplumbed" (1 return and 1 skimmer) adding a MD would be substantial work! As an option, I'd activate the pool cleaner line and point it's flow down into the deep end to 'stir things up'

Without a complete overhaul of the pool, this is all I'll cover in this post. If you really want to change the other things you mentioned, I'll happily give my professional advice

As a minimum, the liner will be replaced.

As a minimum, I must at least repair the bad concrete with some new coping. I would prefer to replace the coping as I'd rather not tuck point everything. I've tuckpointed other things before. Not fun.

The light and main drain are just wishes. Neither will be cheap or easy.

The lack of mixing isn't too bad, just definitely noticable. 5 minues of splashing and its gone. one turn with the pool robot does even better.

 

[duraleigh]

1. If it was originally concrete, a liner may have been dropped in it because of some severe cracking. Since the deck is in good shape, tho, they probably did it to save money. It can certainly be replastered. I am a huge DIY guy and would not plaster....my skill level is not there for a really good job.

2. I think re-coping the pool will be the single biggest improvement you will make. I'd figure a way to level it up and cope it new all around.

3. You can do without a main drain and it is a huge hassle to get one in there.

4. The old light niche is probably still there but, unless it powers up, trying to get it re-wired may be next to impossible.

5. Polyurethane caulk does a great job on the expansion joints and will last a long time.

6. If it turns out to be a concrete pool, I have an idea for the liner track. Install a track about 6" below the bottom of the coping (yes, it'll be underwater) and then tile on top of the track up to the coping bottom. The liner will be completely submersed (yeah, it works) and will last 25 years....no UV degradation.

7. I agree on the auto cover.....big bucks.

 

[michael_adkins]

The pool vertical walls are definitely concrete. I can see it through the tear in the liner and I can see a portion of the top where the pool cover was filled in with concrete.

I do not really know if it would be called a bond beam or not as I cannot evaluate its thickness yet. The original liner receiver is sandwiched between the to of the concrete wall and the coping and is laid flat. The currently used liner receiver is vertically mounted on the face of the concrete wall. I can see a couple of fasteners and they are very rusty, so the receiver will likely be replaced. Since the original receiver is sandwiched between the top of the wall and the coping, The pool has always been a liner pool.

Regarding tile then liner. I have seen the Tru-tile system on the web. Now, if one were to just use tile and a vertical receiver, how does one deal with water migrating behind the liner? Without a good deal of info showing this works, I could not risk such a system. If you have references for this, I'm game to research further. On the tru-tile system, the tile area and bead receiver are integral so the only leak path is around the liner bead, which I assume seals because of the weight of water on the receiver lip. With just tile and a standard receiver, ther eis a leak path going over and behind the receiver. The tru-tile system is not recommended on concrete pools.

 

[duraleigh]

My pool.....5th year with submerged liner. Liner track is attached to wall with waterproof adhesive and concrete screws.

Liner bead hooks into horizontal portion of track and weight of water hold it tightly in place. Liner track protudes about 3/8" from wall so tile and thinset sitting on top of track are on the same vertical plane.

 

[michael_adkins]

My pool.....5th year with submerged liner. Liner track is attached to wall with waterproof adhesive and concrete screws.

Liner bead hooks into horizontal portion of track and weight of water hold it tightly in place. Liner track protudes about 3/8" from wall so tile and thinset sitting on top of track are on the same vertical plane.

Well, if I had read your signature...

This is intriguing.

I'll admit a bit of ignorance regarding the water tightness of concrete products. You don't get any leaking of water through the block or behind the liner track, especially at the mortar joints? Got any more pictures, especially of the tile, grouting, and how the coping works.

 

[duraleigh]

Mike,

I lost several photos thru my own computer incompetence.

This one shows the finished product fairly well.

Masonry is not waterproof...even pool plaster is microscopically porous.

So there is some seepage thru the grout. I had to replace my liner (defective) the 2nd year and it was damp behind the liner but the water was certainly not excessive. In the winter, I lose probably less than 1/8" daily..perhaps 1/4" max in the summer. I've never tracked it very carefully.

I don't have coping but rather carried the decking slab cantilevered out over the wall by a couple of inches and then tiled the face of the slab.

An important construction point that you probably already know...do not physically attach the decking to the vertical wall of the pool. They must remain independant of each other to allow for some movement.

 

[michael_adkins]

Thanks for the picture. Your pool looks very nice.

I do know that the deck and pool need to float relative to each other. The pool builder, however, did not as far as I can tell. We don't get frost heave here and the soil is apparently fairly stable though.

Once we do the archeology, we will figure out the best route of repair. I really may not know anything substantial for three weeks. I'm getting ready for a two week vacation and I really need to wait 'til I get back. I do have a loose coping brick I'm going to pull up and look under though.

This gets exacerbated because my coping does not rest directly on the bond beam. There is one course of brick between. I will have to replace this brick course with something complimentary to the new coping.

I have a line on a cast coping manufacturer one town south of me. He may be able to provide a suitable substitute. I won't call until I get back though.

 

[michael_adkins]

I did a little archeology yesterday. I'll get pictures today if I can.

It looks like the top of the pool wall is 6" thick. It also looks like chipping off the mortar that hold on the brick and coping will pop right up.

It also looks like I have two options. Balance the coping on the 6" wall and let if float with the pool or use cast in place and tie it to the pool deck. Since my concrete skills aren't the best, I will likely tie the coping to the pool wall. The existing coping is tied to both aw we know that is not right.

Now, if someone could help me figure out how to pour concrete better (get out all the air bubbles, etc) then a cast in place coping is very do-able. Itwould also probably look better.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Getting all the bubbles out of concrete is easy. Harbor freight sells concrete vibrators just for that job. If you don't want the expense of that, a bunch of light raps with a hammer on the form after the concrete is placed will do the same thing along the edge. If you do go the vibrator route just be careful and don't over vibrate the concrete it'll deform the form.

 

[michael_adkins]

Getting all the bubbles out of concrete is easy. Harbor freight sells concrete vibrators just for that job. If you don't want the expense of that, a bunch of light raps with a hammer on the form after the concrete is placed will do the same thing along the edge. If you do go the vibrator route just be careful and don't over vibrate the concrete it'll deform the form.

I've been looking at videos of how to install the cast coping with foam forms and the vibrator is the way to go. The HF model is less than $100. I would also need a concrete mixer which is about the same. Cheap relative to the cost of labor and I can sell after the job. I would have to make a few practice pours which is no big deal.

I'm looking at the Stegmeier forms, but they do not match the height of my needed coping. From the top of my bond beam to the top of my existing coping is 6 1/4". Not exacally standard. This pool was not built by normal men. I'll attach a couple of shots of the archeology I did a couple of days ago. The top of the pool wall is 6" wide or so. Stegmeier forms max out at something like 4". I would have to cast a 2" cap. Then, I would have to attach the liner receiver and that would raise my liner relative to the skimmer and i would have to think about whether thats OK. Now, if I went with a submerged liner, that could be OK, but I'm not sure on that submerged liner idea yet. I am also considering just making my own forms. That would likely lead me to a square edge, which would be more fragile.

I think that the pool wall is a bit narrow to bond the coping to the pool wall. 12" cap on a 6" wall. If I go pour-in-place, I would probably drill the existing deck for rebar and tie into the deck and put a slipsheet between the coping and the pool wall. As it stands, the existing coping is bonded to both (which we know is a bad idea).

Here are a couple of additional pics.