Help with bid

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courtneyg

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Jun 12, 2018
7
Grapevine, TX
Hi there. We are building our forever home and are planning to put in a pool. We're close to signing a pool contract, but I figured I'd better get all the help I can before I sign on the dotted line, especially because I've researched everything I can, but still don't know enough. We've never owned a pool, though I had one growing up and cleaned the filter most of the time.

I'm frustrated that my first attempt at negotiating the price was met with "here's what you can give up." I'm not sure if they aren't negotiating because there's no room (they are the cheapest quote of 5 by a few thousand) or if my project just isn't worth it. I always expect a deal and won't sign until I feel like I'm getting a good one.

The company is reputable. The three references I've checked have all been happy. The in-floor system, aqua bright, travertine, and aqualink system are clearly upgrades, but they are must-haves in our forever pool. I've read on this website that ozone and UV aren't worth it, so we've decided not to do that. We just want to be sure we're not getting taken for a ride!

Thanks in advance.

Here's what we have:

pool - 13,451 gal/102 ft perimeter/422 sq ft/14x34 ft
spa - 720 gal/28 ft perimeter/49 sq ft/ 7 x 7 ft

2.0 HP Jandy E pump
Jandy 120 GPM feature pump (booster pump, for water features? will probably drop this one for $1k)
460 sqft Jandy Cartride Filter (VP)
iAqualink PS8 w/4 relays
chlorine feeder
ozone/UV combos (dropping this for $1200)
2 valve motors
5 nitchless LED color (1 in spa)
waterway spa jet
2 bev tables (dropping for $500)
pool miser autofill
12 eyeballs (?)
start up chemicals
acid case
maintenance kit
in-floor pool cleaner (paramount PV3)
zodiac natural gas JXI 400k BTU heater
jandy 1 1/2 hp blower

#4 rebar

2 skimmers
5 returns
6 main drains (VGB compliant drain covers)
6 spa jets

104 lf of travertine coping
102 lf of tile

3 bubblers
2 rockports

581 sf of travertine pavers

Aqua Bright interior

Total = $77,749

2.jpg3.jpg
 
Ony advice I can give is to buy a house already with a pool! Will cost about 65-75% less. But I bet that is too late. But..based on some pools built by some people I know down here in San Antonio, and what they spent, that seems high. And here they have to dig into bedrock. Grapevine is clay I think, not as bad. Seems about 10-15 too high, but then, I am not comparing apples to apples.

Looks awesome though!
 
Courtney,

It all looks good to me except the in-floor system... I suggest you do a little research here on TFP, before getting one.. They are not the do all, does all systems that they are made out to be... :(

Use the search box in the upper right of your screen and you will find plenty of pros and cons...

It makes sense to delete the UV and Ozone, but what do you plan to use to sanitize your pool? I would suggest that you go with a Saltwater Chlorine Generator (SWCG)...

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.
 
Courtney, the answer is yes "chlorine will sanitize". That is exactly what the SWG produces, it converts the salt into chlorine gas. I've had one for over 14 yrs and I have never tasted the salt. If the chlorine feeder is a "puck" feeder it will lead to high cya values and if water is not drain to keep in a manageable level will lead to problems.
 
courtneyg said:
Thanks, Jim. I don't care for the salt taste/feel. Won't the chlorine sanitize sufficiently? That's what I read on posts about the UV/Ozone system. Or am I missing some issue here?
Click to expand...


The salt level required by the SWCG is somewhere between 3000 and 3500 ppm. The salt level in the ocean is over 10X that amount. There is no salt taste to the water.
Chlorine is what you are creating with the SWCG - it is turning the salt (NaCl) into sodium (Na) and chlorine (Cl) via the metal plates and electricity. The Cl is dissolved in the pool water as it flows over the plates and enters the pool.
The other way to add chlorine to your pool without adding either hardness (CA) or stabilizer (CYA) is with liquid chlorine. But the issue with adding that is that it needs to be done on a daily basis (may or may not be an issue on your schedule - but the issue often arises when you have to go on vacation or are otherwise away from your pool for days or weeks at a time). That can be overcome with automatic liquid dispensers, reliable neighbors or a SWCG. Usually the SWCG is the most economical solution (as it basically is a break even with the cost savings of liquid chlorine over the lifetime of the plates).
Also, after years of adding liquid chlorine to your pool, there will be enough salt in the water (without adding any salt) to equal what is required to run the SWCG (3000 - 3500 ppm) just from the chemical reactions of breaking down the chlorine.
 
Make sure to specify a VSP or variable speed pump. Check your utility for rebates on that too. Also for sure 100% you want a saltwater pool. As others stated you will not taste any salt in the water and they are SO much less maintenance.

Lose the magical ozone/UV garbage and drop the puck feeder. Also doesn't seem like enough JVA (automatic valve actuators - motors). You have a PS8 but only 2 of them. I think you will want to motorize more valves so you can turn things on/off remotely.

Order ASAP a TF-100 test kit so your pool will remain clear and clean and safe to swim in. It is not a good idea to spend $80k for a pool and then not commit to a few hours a week to do your own maintenance.

What water features are you getting? You don't list them. You may or may not need an extra "feature" pump.

What about a robot cleaner?
 
What would eliminating the infloor cleaning system do to the overall bid? Might be cheaper to purchase a robot cleaner...

Have a client with an infloor system and it works ok but manual vacuuming is still required at times.

You have a ? by the eyeballs - is there a diagram on their design for proper flow/circulation? Why are there 6 main drains in a pool that size?

Only have one client with Jandy equipment (same client with infloor system) seems to work okay.

You can use the tablet feeder so long as you understand the effects they have on your various chemicals and how to resolve any problems that arise. For example, periodic replacement of water will be needed to lower the CYA level.

What's included in the "start up chemicals"?

Have them add an extra set of cartridges for the filter.

Will the spa have a way to be isolated? I'm assuming the heated water will be distributed 50/50 until the spa can be isolated, which shuts off the spill over?
 
How much deck are you getting? As in how many square feet? You will want to specify in the contract how much extra for extra decking. For sure this is the #1 thing you will add after the fact and very expensive. Also I did not see a fence specified. Is this required for your local? Don't assume running gas and electric are included but the should be so make sure. Your gas most likely will need to be heavied up for that heater.
 
PoolGate said:
How much deck are you getting? As in how many square feet? You will want to specify in the contract how much extra for extra decking. For sure this is the #1 thing you will add after the fact and very expensive. Also I did not see a fence specified. Is this required for your local? Don't assume running gas and electric are included but the should be so make sure. Your gas most likely will need to be heavied up for that heater.
Click to expand...

Good point, Make sure they are included in the quote, and like PoolGate said, verify if your gas can accommodate a heater that size. Honestly in Texas, seems a bit large for that size pool? I have a 250k BTU and its more than enough, not sure how far South Grapevine TX is :)
 

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Hi again Courtney :handwave:! As you already know, I used this same pool builder and that quotes seems about right comparatively. My designer did work with us, but did exactly what yours is doing with the "well here's what you can give up..." I believe it's just how they start. At that price point you are definitely not particularly on the low end of what they do (lots of people putting basic pools in for about 45k around the metroplex). Try this tactic. Get a quote without the stuff you're giving up, then go back to them and tell them "I've given up all i can, but I just can't spend quite that much. If you would come down to (insert reasonable, but low number here) I would come sign with you but I do have other quotes I'm considering." I will leave others to comment and recommend equipment just noting that the reason people are telling you to get rid of the inline chlorinator is because 3" chlorine tablets create problems if used exclusively and often. Good luck with your negotiations!
 
I'll second the recommendation to think long and hard about the in floor cleaning system. From what I understand they are expensive and folks either love them or hate them. There always seems to be someone showing up with issues of one kind or another. A good robot will do the floors and the walls too.

Drop the erosion chlorine tab feeder and go with a salt water chlorine generator.
 
Seems rather reasonable price wise, but I am from Connecticut.

Paramount Infloor is a great feature, if the dealer has Paramount dictate piping & placement based on steel schedule, the performance is impressive.. Paramount offers the design service to all dealers.


Most in floor naysayers, have builder designed systems.

What are they specifying for suction side safety measures?
 
Thanks! Will ask about the VSP. What does it mean to motorize more valves to turn things on/off remotely? What will I want to turn off and on remotely?

Rockport waterfall features. Probably will drop the feature pump.

Don't need a robot if we stick with the in-floor filter.
 
Sorry, didn't finish my response. Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies! I'm blown away by your willingness to take the time to respond to help me out!

Eliminating in floor filter would save about $3k. Yes, spa can be isolated.

581 sq ft of travertine pavers for decking. Great point about additional decking! Gas and electric are included, I just didn't list. House builder is doing the fence.

I'll ask about the size of the heater.

"What are they specifying for suction side safety measures?" I don't know what this means, but will ask.
 
The 6 main drains is what caught my eye.....Ask your PB to show you where all the returns, skimmers, and main drains will be going. Share that info with us so we can go over it. There are some pools that have NO main drains so......6?? I think it is 3 sets of main drain but still that is one too many. It should be one set in the main pool and one in the spa.

Kim:kim:
 
kimkats said:
The 6 main drains is what caught my eye.....Ask your PB to show you where all the returns, skimmers, and main drains will be going. Share that info with us so we can go over it. There are some pools that have NO main drains so......6?? I think it is 3 sets of main drain but still that is one too many. It should be one set in the main pool and one in the spa.

Kim:kim:
Click to expand...

Pool and spa & possible rock water fall - 6 sumps makes sense.
 
courtneyg said:
Thanks! Will ask about the VSP. What does it mean to motorize more valves to turn things on/off remotely? What will I want to turn off and on remotely?

Rockport waterfall features. Probably will drop the feature pump.

Don't need a robot if we stick with the in-floor filter.
Click to expand...

Your equipment list specifies the Jandy PS-8 automation center. This can control up to 4 motorized valves. Each valve you are getting can be automated so you can set up programs with the automation so things can be controlled remotely. So you click "spa" and all of your valves switch to spa mode. If you have a waterfall, you click a button and the waterfall starts. The PS8 includes 2 motorized valves (called JVAs) but can operate up to 4. With a pool, spa and waterfall, I can see at least 4 being needed/desired to automate everything. I would ask for a plumbing plan and have your builder specify on the plan where each valve goes and if it is automated or not.

Here is a handy guide to the automation you are getting.

https://www.jandy.com/~/media/zodiac/global/downloads/sa/sa6465.pdf
 
If m guessing 6 main drains so the in floor system will work better

Look around at robots, they seem much better, and if you have problems it's with this small little unit that can be replaced, if you have problems with the in floor, well......

Robots also won't extend the time needed to build
 
Ok, so I'm a contractor..... not a pool contractor but a landscaping contractor, but it applies nonetheless, so let me give you an opinion/perspective from the other side of the fence:

1: You say that this is a known to be reputable company, with good references (which you've already verified), and, per your own words, is ALREADY a "few thousand" cheaper than any of the other bids you received for presumably the same pool...... All due respect, but what more do you want from the guy? You say you won't buy unless you feel like you're getting a good deal. You're getting a pool built by a quality builder with a good reputation for cheaper than any of the other quotes you received. Seems like it's already a good deal.
2: What's more important here? A quality built pool or the best price?
3: If this guy knows his market well, he likely already knows he's giving you a very competitive price. This is likely why you aren't getting anywhere trying to negotiate. I'm the same way when I give a quote. My price is my price. If you aren't willing to make concessions on your end, why should I? Again, all due respect but my goal as a business owner, and your PB's job is not to make you feel like you're getting a good deal, its to make sure that he feeds his family and the families of his employees/subcontractors. Pricing is a complex equation of making sure all the company's obligations are met and my family is provided for while at the same time being able to sleep at night knowing I'm not ripping you off. I'm not going to, nor do I feel that it is a good business practice to, artificially inflate my price just so that there is some negotiating room. I don't like playing games with people, and I don't like people trying to play them with me. If your quote was for $20k, thats what I can do the job for. If I felt that I could have done it for 18,500, that's what the price would have been originally.Among reputable companies that are not desperate for work, in my experience from doing some networking, this is a pretty common mindset.

No offense intended by any of these comments, just giving an "inside" opinion from the other side.
 

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