Please, help me choose automation (with pics)

[dmj4]

I have spent a ton of money on a new pool that is all manually operated. I am disappointed in myself for not knowing better and a little disappointed in all the other people that had a hand in building the pool and didn't tell me. In the end, it is my fault though. Too late, I realized I would have to leave the pump on 24-7 when we vacation. I already paid lots of money for the electrical without realizing I was not getting a timer, so I'm hoping I can put some sort of automation that will allow the electrical wire to just be moved from the present electrical box to the new automation system. I have been looking at the Intermatic 100 AMP Dual Timer. I don't know if this is what I need or even the best choice.

If someone could please help me decide how I need to get this pool automated on timers, I would appreciate it.

I have (I know some of this is in my signature but I will list it again):

18 X 37 vinyl liner Grecian shaped pool with 2 main drains, 2 skimmers and 3 returns (1 of them is on the steps)
Jandy 3000 heater with hot gas defrost and heat/cool options
Hayward sand filter
1 1/2 HP Hayward Pump
Polaris 280 cleaner with dedicated line
3/4 HP Polaris Booster pump Cleaner
AquaRite SWG
Jandy deck jets
X-stream slide
ColorLogic 4.0 pool light
I have one double electrical plug at the pool pad
I have a switch for the ColorLogic light at the pool pad

The AquaRite is on the back of the post behind the Electric Box.
The breaker for the Heater is on the left below the one that says plug & light.
The 3/4 HP pump breaker is on the right below the one that says pump.
The AquaRite breaker is on the right, at the bottom.

Thank you!
Donna

 

[Titanium]

Donna,

Sorry you are having the issues with your pool control.

I don't see any reason why the Intermatic wouldn't work. There are several different flavors of these - do you have a link to the exact model that you're looking for? There are both mechanical and digital versions for these Intermatic timers. Also, are you ever going to want to do more than have the pumps on timers? Like being able to turn the pumps on and off from the house or a wireless remote?

It looks like your main pump is 240 Volts and your booster pump is 120 Volts from the pictures of the breaker panel.

What you're going to need is the style of Intermatic timers that have both the timers AND the breaker panel built into the same enclosure. These Intermatic timers don't come with circuit breakers, of course. Hopefully the existing circuit breakers in your existing pool panel will be able to be used in the Intermatic panel. We won't know this for sure without knowing the brand and model of your existing breaker panel.

What is your budget for this project? Do you have any electrical knowledge yourself?

 

[dmj4]

Thank you for your reply. Yes the pump is 240 and booster is 120.

The only reason I was looking at the Intermatic is because someone mentioned it to me. I am at a true loss when it comes to this pool stuff. It would be great to be able to control everything wirelessly from inside. I would be open to any suggestion that would be somewhat easy to move the wires and program.

The pool panel box is a General Electric (GE Powermark Gold Load Center). I'll have to lie on the pool pad to see the model number.

I have wired electrical outlets. I did one for my over the oven microwave. I have also run wires from the breaker, box in the basement, to new outlets.

We don't really have a set budget.

 

[Titanium]

dmj4,

If you wanted to go the least expensive way (mechanical timers and no future wireless or automation), the link below shows the Intermatic timer that I think would work for your system for $187.99. No future automation or wireless is possible with this mechanical timer system.
http://www.westsidewholesale.com/10...-120v-spst-timer-and-one-240v-dpst-timer.html

The link below shows an Intermatic timer with electronic timers, and the cost is 374.99. There is a freeze protection version for $384.99. This Intermatic timer also would enable you to place your pool and spa lights on timers.
http://www.westsidewholesale.com/60a-3-circuit-control-center-with-digital-time-clock.html

The Intermatic electronic timer shown above is modular in that you don't have to add wireless controls right now - you could add them in at a later date for a total of $347.50. These wireless controls, which appear to be waterproof, would enable you to turn your two pumps on and off from the house or at the pool. I find being able to turn pumps on and off from the pool (without going back and forth to the pool equipment pad) is handy when I'm adding chemicals or cleaning the skimmers or pool cleaner. You would also be able to turn your pool and spa lights on and off from either the house or pool. I think, but am not 100% sure, that you could add valve actuators to this system in order to switch from pool mode to spa mode and vice versa.
PE950 Transmitter $182.75 http://www.westsidewholesale.com/i-wave-pool-spa-wireless-transmitter.html
PE650 Receiver $164.75 http://www.westsidewholesale.com/i-wave-pool-spa-wireless-receiver.html

I don't have any direct experience with the vendor links shown above. All of the above prices include free shipping per their website. I also don't have any direct experience with the Intermatic electronic timers. I do have some experience with the Intermatic mechanical timers.

If you've added outlets and ran circuits before, and understand the necessary safety precautions when doing electrical work, then I don't think there is any reason you couldn't do this work yourself. Although I would recommend asking any questions about things you're not sure about, and posting pictures of the electrical install so we can help ensure that everything was installed correctly.

I'm not sure that your GE breakers are going to work in the Intermatic panels. I tried checking out the Intermatic owner's manual in order to verify this, but for some reason I'm not able to download them.

Good luck!! And let us know what you end up deciding to do.

 

[dmj4]

Titanium,
Thank you so much for all the research you did. As I said, I just didn't know enough about it to begin to make sure it would do what I need it to do. I am so grateful you didn't just decide "she could do this research herself". I can always get it and then look to be sure it is something I can do. I always go the safest route and turn the main off when I do anything electrical. I just don't trust turning off just the breaker that I'm working with. My Dad, who taught me what I know, just turns the breaker off, but he got his point across to me about the danger involved. In this case, a 100 AMP sub-panel was added in my basement off the main breaker panel and then the GE panel at the pool came off the sub-panel.

It will be a relief to automate everything so I can determine how many hours per day to run everything. I am a little too hit and miss the way things are now, especially with the SWG. If I start it up then have to go somewhere, it may run for too many hours. If I start it and it has been running for a while and I need to leave, I may turn it off too soon. I like to run the pump in the daytime, while the heat pump gets warmer outside air. I also cover it every night.

Last night my husband said I was talking in my sleep about turning something on at the pool.

Thanks so much!
Donna

 

[Titanium]

I'm glad you found my research useful. We're really looking forward to your project (and the pictures).

I always go the safest route and turn the main off when I do anything electrical. I just don't trust turning off just the breaker that I'm working with. My Dad, who taught me what I know, just turns the breaker off, but he got his point across to me about the danger involved.

This is a good start, but you should also use a voltmeter or multimeter to verify the absence of voltage in the circuit you think you turned off. Voltmeters or multimeters are fairly inexpensive nowadays.

 

[dmj4]

Thank you. I would feel better with a voltmeter. I will get one, for sure. I am probably going to show my total ignorance now. The one on the website is 60AMP and he ran 80AMP to the pool. I have been looking on the site for one just like the one you found in 100AMP. Am I wrong about this? Is the 60 AMP enough?

Thanks again!
Donna

 

[Titanium]

The one on the website is 60AMP and he ran 80AMP to the pool. I have been looking on the site for one just like the one you found in 100AMP. Am I wrong about this? Is the 60 AMP enough?

Good catch. I had not realized that your Jandy 3000 was a heat pump. For some reason I had assumed that your heater was a natural gas heater. Is the Jandy heater shown in the link below your heater? If yes, it looks like your heater is missing the "AE-Ti" logo in the front.
http://www.jandy.com/html/products/heatpumps/ae3000.php

Heat pumps use a lot of electricity - much more than your two water pumps combined. According to the Jandy 3000 manual shown in the link below, on page 6 (pdf page 8), your heater requires a minimum ampacity of 48 Amps and a maximum breaker size of 80 Amps. Looking at your original picture more closely, I see that your Jandy 3000 is fed by an 80 Amp breaker.
http://www.jandy-downloads.com/pdfs/AE-Ti_HeatPump_Install.pdf

So yes, you are going to need an 80 Amp panel instead of the 60 Amp panel I suggested earlier. There is nothing wrong with the 100 Amp mechanical timer panel. I'm not seeing an Intermatic electronic timer panel sized at 100 Amps., but there is a PE45300 rated at 125 Amps. The 80 Amp Intermatic electronic timer panel is physically larger than the 60 Amp electronic panel I mentioned earlier - 22" H x 14.75" W as compared to 16.5" H x 10.875 W"

Here are a couple of places to find the Intermatic 80 Amp PE35300 electronic timer panel. These are actually better prices than I found for the 60 Amp panel earlier today. Not sure what the shipping charges will be. As before, I don't have any direct experience with either vendor.

$319 http://www.swimmingpoolsetc.com/INT-PE35300.htm

$371.08 http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-2253/Intermatic-PE-Series-80/Detail.bok

 

[dmj4]

Please, see this link for a discussion while we were trying to get everything wired in the first place. I was pretty frantic that day because I had an electrician telling me the wires he pulled were the wrong ones (not his fault) and he didn't think we would have enough power to run a SWG. He had not seen the SWG, he was just afraid it would put us over. confused-and-in-a-pinch-please-help-me-t16829.html

The one on the website is 60AMP and he ran 80AMP to the pool. I have been looking on the site for one just like the one you found in 100AMP. Am I wrong about this? Is the 60 AMP enough?

Good catch. I had not realized that your Jandy 3000 was a heat pump. For some reason I had assumed that your heater was a natural gas heater. Is the Jandy heater shown in the link below your heater? If yes, it looks like your heater is missing the "AE-Ti" logo in the front.
http://www.jandy.com/html/products/heatpumps/ae3000.php
Mine is actually the Jandy AE3000TR. It has the heat/cool with hot gas defrost.

Heat pumps use a lot of electricity - much more than your two water pumps combined. According to the Jandy 3000 manual shown in the link below, on page 6 (pdf page 8), your heater requires a minimum ampacity of 48 Amps and a maximum breaker size of 80 Amps. Looking at your original picture more closely, I see that your Jandy 3000 is fed by an 80 Amp breaker.
http://www.jandy-downloads.com/pdfs/AE-Ti_HeatPump_Install.pdf We were thinking it would pull about 50, but the electrical inspector required the 80 AMP maximum for the breaker.

So yes, you are going to need an 80 Amp panel instead of the 60 Amp panel I suggested earlier. There is nothing wrong with the 100 Amp mechanical timer panel. I'm not seeing an Intermatic electronic timer panel sized at 100 Amps., but there is a PE45300 rated at 125 Amps. The 80 Amp Intermatic electronic timer panel is physically larger than the 60 Amp electronic panel I mentioned earlier - 22" H x 14.75" W as compared to 16.5" H x 10.875 W"That was part of my problem, I was looking for 100AMP because the person that suggested the Intermatic to me said to get the 100AMP dual timer. I am not set on Intermatic. I just started there because of the suggestion. I had no idea what it was I even needed, except I knew it had to have the panel. It is harder because I have never even seen a pool pad. There is nobody we know with a pool, except us

Here are a couple of places to find the Intermatic 80 Amp PE35300 electronic timer panel. These are actually better prices than I found for the 60 Amp panel earlier today. Not sure what the shipping charges will be. As before, I don't have any direct experience with either vendor. Thank you, again. I will take a look at them.

$319 http://www.swimmingpoolsetc.com/INT-PE35300.htm

$371.08 http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-2253/Intermatic-PE-Series-80/Detail.bok

 

[Titanium]

We were thinking it would pull about 50, but the electrical inspector required the 80 AMP maximum for the breaker.

You were very close on the heater pulling 50 Amps - the Jandy manual lists a maximum heater demand of 48 Amps. That is very strange about the electrical inspector insisting on the maximum size of 80 Amps for the circuit breaker.

In general, the NEC (National Electrical Code) requires breakers sized to protect cables. So a 20 Amp cable can be supplied by a 20 Amp or 15 Amp breaker, but not a 30 Amp breaker. The largest exception to this general rule in the NEC of breakers protecting cable is when motors are involved. Very often (usually) the circuit breaker ends up larger than the cable feeding the motor. This is because the cable is sized to handle the running load of the motor, but if the breaker were sized to protect the cable and motor running load amps, then the breaker tends to trip on the when the motor is started. Motors draw 5-8 times normal running load amps (called inrush current) for a split second when they are first turned on. So the NEC allows breakers to be sized large enough to not trip on the motors starting inrush current.

In general, for motors it is best to have the smallest circuit breaker that will not trip during the motor's starting inrush current. The NEC allows - and in this case the Jandy owner's manual - allowed you to go up to an 80 Amp breaker. If a smaller breaker would have worked without tripping, that would have been great. But the inspector had no right to demand that your electrician install the maximum rated breaker.

Please, see this link for a discussion while we were trying to get everything wired in the first place. I was pretty frantic that day because I had an electrician telling me the wires he pulled were the wrong ones (not his fault) and he didn't think we would have enough power to run a SWG. He had not seen the SWG, he was just afraid it would put us over. confused-and-in-a-pinch-please-help-me-t16829.html

I had a chance to review this previous thread. I think Bama Rambler's approach and numbers appear sound, with the exception that he didn't have any info on how much your SWG will draw. There are two ways of thinking on these load calculations. One is if everything had already been installed and you were trying to reassure yourself that everything is sized properly and that there will be no overloads on your electrical panel. With this thinking, your 80 Amp panel appears sufficient, but barely. Also remember that the current draws shown for the heat pump and two pump motors are maximums. It is entirely possible (probable) that the amp draw of the heat pumps and two water pumps will be less - perhaps significantly less - than the maximum amperages shown on the nameplate. The only way to tell is to put a clamp-on ammeter on these loads during typical running conditions and see what the actual running amps are.

The other way of thinking about these load calculations is if you were putting new equipment in. In this case, I would be very tempted to put in the largest panel I could find. I don't think the extra cost to bump up to the 125 Amp Intermatic electronic timer panel is that expensive. The 125 Amp version is even larger at 26" H x 18" W x 4.25" D. You have to realize that the only difference between the 60 Amp and 80 Amp and 100 Amp and 1255 Amp panels is the "panel busbar" and it is merely a small piece of alumimum metal - probably less than a $20 or $30 part.

$347 with free shipping http://www.swimmingpoolsetc.com/INT-PE45300.htm#46537

$394.75 with free shipping http://www.westsidewholesale.com/12...pa-control-panel-with-digital-time-clock.html


When I did research a couple of years ago on automating our pool, the cost of the Intermatic electronic timer panels was very attractive. I probably would have gone the Intermatic route except that I stumbled into a killer deal on a Hayward AquaLogic system at Leslie's. It turned out that Leslie's had made a huge pricing error on their website, but ended up honoring my order anyway. Immediately after my order, this deal disappeared from the Leslie's website. My AquaLogic system would have cost about 2-3 times what I paid at Leslie's except for Leslie's pricing error.

 

[Titanium]

dmj4,

I forgot to mention that you should check the wire size coming from the house main panel to the existing GE pool panel. Depending on the wire size that was ran, it might not do you any good to go to a 100 Amp or 125 Amp pool panel.

 

[polyvue]

I wouldn't even attempt to give advice contrary to the very good specifics offered above, but may I suggest that if you have some dollars to spare ($1000-$2000) that you consider fully automating your system with a control unit that is compatible with your existing components? Your system shares a number of aspects with mine and I have almost everything automated on a central panel at the pad (and in the house via a wall-mounted remote control.) If you decide to go this route, check out the Hayward PS-8. This would be more money up front, but you'd have the capability to automate anything that could be turned on or off with an electrical switch and/or goldline valve, and would be expandable to include gizmos that you add in the future. Just a thought.

 

[Titanium]

polyvue,

Good points you have made.

Here is a cost comparison that I put together in June 2007:

So I've been looking at the various automation offerings out there. I have no interest in remote access via the internet, nor am I interested in calling up by phone to turn the spa on while I'm still driving home from work (spa heats up very fast). All I want to be able to do is go from pool mode to spa mode and back again, adjust the spa temperature, and turn off the spa jets periodically. Also controlling the pool and spa light would be good. Even better would be to meld the existing solar controller with Jandy 3-way valve/actuator into the new control scheme. And not least, I wanted a wireless remote that I could take from the spa to the house and back again.

Also, my existing sub-panel (Intermatic consisting of 2 mechanical timers) is in very bad shape and needs replacing anyway.

The minimum cost I have been looking at has been around $1000 to $1250 to accomplish this task with one of the lower cost systems that still had remote. The systems that have made the short list were:

1. Jandy Aqualink PS4 along with the Jandy Aqualink PDA wireless (about $1050 including power sub panel)
2. Same as above except being PS6 (about $1250)
3. Pentair Intellitouch
4. Hayward Aqualogic PS-4 with 2 valve actuators and a floating wireless spa remote (about $1100)
5. Intermatic PE45343RC, which includes 5 circuits (3 timed, 2 on demand), and 2 valve actuators (about $1000)

The Hayward PS-4 (and PS-8) listed above are of an earlier version than the PS-8 (and PS-4) that Polyvue mentoned and did not have the pH adjustment. Also, I don't believe any of the above prices included a saltwater chlorine generator. Intermatic was the only one of the five listed above that did not have a saltwater chlorine generator option.

The earlier posts in this thread where I mentioned an Intermatic PE25300 and PE 35300 only had the P1353ME electronic timer inside, which is only really setup to control several pumps. You would need to add the PE4243ME Pump/Valve Switch shown below in order to control any 3-way valves in your system (usually used for pool/spa mode or solar heating control).

Then you would need one or two valve actuators in order to physically move the switches.

While you could add this timer and the valve actuators in at a later time on the Intermatic system, it would be more cost effective to buy it at one time like this:
http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/automaticpool-controls/intermaticcontrols-PE45343RC/

Again, though, if you ever wanted to have a saltwater chlorine generator at any time in the future, Intermatic should not be on your automation list.

 

[dmj4]

Thank you so much and I am reading every word of the responses many times. I do have an AquaLink SWG. Thanks Again!
I am hoping to get a chance to try and determine the wire size run from the house to the pool. It is all enclosed in conduit, so I guess I will need to get a peek where it leaves the house or where it enters the panel box at the pool.

Donna