Adventure at a Pool Store

[spdas]

Aloha, now I am as confused as ever about FC and CYA levels. I went to the local pool store to verify my water check methods. My FC and CC and CYA and PH levels were almost the same as the results at the pools store. They were

FC 1.8
CC 2.2
CYA 91
PH 7.9
TA 112

The lady said the CC to FC difference is because the Chlorine is killing some sort of algae or contaminate and I shud continue back to shock levels. OK I agreed and understood most of the above, ---EXCEPT--
Now she says after shock bring the FC level back down to about 2.0. I asked what about the CYA level and she says it does not matter and has nothing to do with chlorine levels. Now in the pool calculator I should have a goal of 7-12 PPM Chlorine, and I understand here that higher CYA, you need higher levels of Chlorine, etc.

so I am CONFUSED.

A seemingly knowledgeable pool store person does not know the basics of Pool chemistry, yet they seem to have a satisfied clientale or they would not be in business??

Frank

 

[heikejohn]

A seemingly knowledgeable pool store person does not know the basics of Pool chemistry, yet they seem to have a satisfied clientale or they would not be in business??

Frank

They have customers with lots of water problems. That is the reason WHY they stay in business.

Since I learned to do my own water testing and treating, I have NOT been back in the pool store.
With customers like us, they would not be able to stay in business!

 

[duraleigh]

Hey, Frank,

If you read through this forum, you will find literally hundreds of other members with similar stories.

It's an unfortunate fact that most contributors on this forum know more about pool water chemistry than most pool store personnel.

 

[zea3]

Pool stores stay in business to sell parts and chemicals. Parts, that's easy to explain. Something breaks and needs replacing or repair. Then there are the gadget freaks who want to play with every new innovation that hits the stores. Chemicals are another matter. The people who work in pool stores do not have an education in chemistry as a requirement for employment. They are trained by the employer (who most likely doesn't know chemistry either). It is not in the store's best interest to inform you that there are simple grocery store equivalents to the basic chemicals they sell. The store also knows that people want things as easy as possible. So they sell a bottle of this and a bag of that to keep people happy. In the case of CYA, a little is a good thing, but too much is too much. When you have too much it is too late so they will sell you algaecide after algaecide to find the one that "works" for your specific type of algae. Of course it never works so as a last resort we drain the pool and refill. Of course you now need to buy this and that to balance your water since there is nothing in your pool! Over stabilized water is a cash cow the chain pool store isn't going to kill. They aren't going to train their employees what happens when you have too much CYA. You may find a mom and pop pool store that knows their stuff and takes good care of you. Then there is TFP who takes care of you, because we have all been there, done that, and paid through the nose for it!

 

[Butterfly]

Sorry you are confused, but as others have replied, stick with TFP and your pool problems will disappear.

Your pH is too high. Once it gets to 7.8 (each time) you should lower it to 7.2.

I suggest your lower your CYA to about 70. Then you need to maintain shock level until you have met the criteria outlined in How to Shock Your Pool from Pool School.

We will help you maintain a Trouble Free Pool :-D

 

[waste]

Pool stores stay in business to sell parts and chemicals. Parts, that's easy to explain. Something breaks and needs replacing or repair. Then there are the gadget freaks who want to play with every new innovation that hits the stores. Chemicals are another matter. The people who work in pool stores do not have an education in chemistry as a requirement for employment. They are trained by the employer (who most likely doesn't know chemistry either). It is not in the store's best interest to inform you that there are simple grocery store equivalents to the basic chemicals they sell. The store also knows that people want things as easy as possible. So they sell a bottle of this and a bag of that to keep people happy. In the case of CYA, a little is a good thing, but too much is too much. When you have too much it is too late so they will sell you algaecide after algaecide to find the one that "works" for your specific type of algae. Of course it never works so as a last resort we drain the pool and refill. Of course you now need to buy this and that to balance your water since there is nothing in your pool! Over stabilized water is a cash cow the chain pool store isn't going to kill. They aren't going to train their employees what happens when you have too much CYA. You may find a mom and pop pool store that knows their stuff and takes good care of you. Then there is TFP who takes care of you, because we have all been there, done that, and paid through the nose for it!

Hi Zea Please don't confuse 'malice aforethought' with ignorance! :lol:

In my experience, it's not that the pool testers know about the issue, they simply go by what the sales rep from the chem company tells them The result is that, as chemically ignorant as they are, they just go by what they've been told by the sales rep (and the rep also has no clue about chemistry ). Because they can sell lots of expensive chems, they never question why they have to sell so many chems - it just works... and then 2 weeks later, they get to sell more chems It's stuff like this that originally brought me to the forums - I strongly suspected that we weren't doing things right

 

[zea3]

Pool stores stay in business to sell parts and chemicals. Parts, that's easy to explain. Something breaks and needs replacing or repair. Then there are the gadget freaks who want to play with every new innovation that hits the stores. Chemicals are another matter. The people who work in pool stores do not have an education in chemistry as a requirement for employment. They are trained by the employer (who most likely doesn't know chemistry either). It is not in the store's best interest to inform you that there are simple grocery store equivalents to the basic chemicals they sell. The store also knows that people want things as easy as possible. So they sell a bottle of this and a bag of that to keep people happy. In the case of CYA, a little is a good thing, but too much is too much. When you have too much it is too late so they will sell you algaecide after algaecide to find the one that "works" for your specific type of algae. Of course it never works so as a last resort we drain the pool and refill. Of course you now need to buy this and that to balance your water since there is nothing in your pool! Over stabilized water is a cash cow the chain pool store isn't going to kill. They aren't going to train their employees what happens when you have too much CYA. You may find a mom and pop pool store that knows their stuff and takes good care of you. Then there is TFP who takes care of you, because we have all been there, done that, and paid through the nose for it!

Hi Zea Please don't confuse 'malice aforethought' with ignorance! :lol:

In my experience, it's not that the pool testers know about the issue, they simply go by what the sales rep from the chem company tells them The result is that, as chemically ignorant as they are, they just go by what they've been told by the sales rep (and the rep also has no clue about chemistry ). Because they can sell lots of expensive chems, they never question why they have to sell so many chems - it just works... and then 2 weeks later, they get to sell more chems It's stuff like this that originally brought me to the forums - I strongly suspected that we weren't doing things right

Hi Ted,
You're right, more ignorance than malice. It just bugs me how poorly the pool store employees are trained. I would take my water to the same store and depending on who waited on me my pool was either fine or the worst cesspool ever seen! Anyway, don't want to rant and hijack the thread! :blah: :blah:

 

[TravisD]

If you drop your FC that low with your CYA levels being 90, you will be battling algae constantly. I was told the same thing by a pool store. They are simply wrong. I questioned this very topic, and chem geek (a member of the forum) gave me some good links to read about the relationship of CYA and FC. Here is one of the links he sent me.

 

[chem geek]

Just to be clear, it is not a certainty that a pool will get algae if the FC is too low relative to CYA or even if the FC were zero. It just makes it much more likely. It is always possible that the water is naturally very poor in algal nutrients (phosphates, nitrates) or that there is leftover algicide in the water from earlier treatments (copper, borates) or that one is extremely lucky to not have any algal spores anywhere in the area or that the pool has a heavy bather load (such as some commercial/public pools) producing combined chlorine (specifically, monochloramine) that can kill algae independent of CYA level.

It's not that the pool store "extra cost" treatments don't ever work, but that they are not necessary if one maintains the proper "active" chlorine level in their pools and that level has nothing to do with FC alone, but rather is related to the FC/CYA ratio.

As was noted above, this lack of knowledge isn't the pool stores fault. They listen to their manufacturer's reps and these reps listen to the manufacturer's claims about their products. These companies sell Trichlor and Dichlor and say that CYA doesn't matter, or that it doesn't matter until it's 200 ppm or more, etc. They claim that they understand the chemistry but that it does not apply to "real pools". Of course, the experience of over 20,000 members at The PoolForum and 10,000 members at Trouble Free Pool would tend to dispute that. Even worse, the standard training courses of NSPF CPO and APSP TECH don't even teach the most fundamental and indisputable rules such as "For every 10 ppm FC added by Trichlor, it also increases CYA by 6 ppm."

A cynical person would think that the focus of the pool industry is more on intentionally withholding materially important information from consumers and pool professionals in order to maximize profits. A less cynical person would think that there is widespread ignorance and perpetuated falsehoods that have been around for so long that no one even questions them anymore.

Richard

 

[diverman57]

heres my pool store story. now understand, i like the people who run the local
pool store. its a family business and they are basically very good people. they have
even stopped recommending baquacil. they now recommend either chlorine or
swg systems. this being said, i was in the store yesterday and just happened to
mention to one employee that i heard some people used bleach to chlorinate
their pools and he said man that stuff is so bad for your pool. i said no kidding, and he
said yeah its hard on a pool. so i said thanks for the tip , could i get 2 cases of liquid
chlorine, and he said no problem.

 

[spdas]

Aloha, thanks for all the replies. Still it amazes me that the Pool Store will remain in ignorance, intentionally or innocently. But I guess they have to make or protect their market. Watching the customers come in to the Pool Store with their little sample bottles and a "help me" look on their faces, they are looking for someone to just Do-It and make the water nice, rather than at TFP we also ask "Why?"

I brought the PH to 7.5 with help of the pool calculator
and will keep the FC up to 5ppm.

I tried to buy some stabilizer solution at the pool store, but they said I did not need it nor needed to check CYA. Maybe they wanted me out of the store fast so they could sell all the lemmings in line after me the chemicals.

frank
BTW I just bought a low chlorine test kit and did not research it thoroughly (also it is old 2004). Did I screw up and get something useless for my pool application? here it is

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

 

[PaulR]

BTW I just bought a low chlorine test kit and did not research it thoroughly (also it is old 2004). Did I screw up and get something useless for my pool application?

Probably. If your CYA is 90 you do not have a "low chlorine" situation. That kit is described as being for "commercial" pools which I'm thinking means things like indoor public pools that don't use CYA at all and so maintain very low FC levels. You may have a tent over your crate but it ain't indoors.
--paulr

 

[mickey4paws]

BTW I just bought a low chlorine test kit and did not research it thoroughly (also it is old 2004). Did I screw up and get something useless for my pool application? here it is

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

Unfortunately if it's from 2004, I would be surprised if the reagents would still be good.