Backwashing to Woods - Affect on Trees?

[geekgranny]

Sorry if this has been addressed but couldn't find anything specific enough doing search.

I just switched over from Ionization, over 10 years (and no algae) (using liquid and granular chlorine and floating pucks) a couple of days ago. And yes I do have some staining, not too much, that I can live with for now.

My CYA, which dispersed from hosiery bags in front of return, in four hours went from 0 (test reading) to 70 in a few hours and has held for two days. BTW... I understand that we aren't supposed to test for CYA for a week but I could not restrain myself. Pool store also told me that this brand "dissolves" very fast. Anyway, my chlorine reading is staying pretty close to 12 in past 36 hours. It was cloudy yesterday and I haven't tested yet today.

I understand the correlation between adequate amounts of chlorine with high CYA.

My question is ..... I have to frequently backwash DE filter, weekly, due to sand, silt, being in heavy woods, etc. I backwash directly down the hill to woods, our "wild area". Most of the water is absorbed before it reaches the end; Texas hot and dry. What happens to all the "locked up" chlorine? Lets say I keep the chlorine around 9ppm because that is what CYA level calls for (I'll know more in a week or so after everything stabilizes.) does that mean I'm going to be dousing higher levels of chlorine to the ground and wild plants and trees down the hill than as if my CYA and chlorine levels were kept lower? How about off gassing of the chlorine? I'm part of protected habitat and feed many wild critters and birds so this is critical to us.

In past, using Ionization, and some chlorine I let the chlorine level get to virtually 0 before doing a backwash. We use very environmentally friendly products and we don't use or need insecticides or herbicides. I use a lot of baking soda and vinegar for cleaning.

Please, any comments/suggestions on this. If the high levels of chlorine are going to be an environmental problem at such high levels I will gladly lower my CYA to reduce needed chlorine levels. BTW... we are on a very old septic system that has served us well possibly because we strive to keep as much nonbiodegradable substances out of it as possible as well as most toilet paper, grease, unnecessary organic waste from kitchen, etc. (We do a lot of composting of kitchen waste too. Meat products go into freezer until we take it out to trash pickup.) We also try to keep the phosphate levels of commercial products as low as possible.

While I'm at it. I do flush a lot of DE into the woods and down the hill. At times this concerns me but I rationalize that as our sand/silt/dust coming from our limestone environment, i.e. limestone escarpment with about 75% rock/20% soil ratio is very similar to DE I'm not adding much that isn't around here. Is this true? We figure that our lack of many bugs in dusty house and loads of limestone sand/silt outside acts as a natural insect killer. We don't use insecticides in the house and have never had a flea problem even when vets all around us report major flea problems in local suburban areas. When most bugs enter house they die in a few hours, except for the scorpions, tarantulas, and some spiders. This year has been especially bad for silt and dust especially with the three new, active puppies keeping it stirred all the time and this year we have seen fewer scorpions in the house than ever in 23 years here.

I'll, at some time, post a link to some pics of some critters.

Thanks, geekgranny

 

[anonapersona]

Off Topic: You might want to know about an insecticide called Shoo-Fly. The "Home Handyman" column in our local paper mentioned it, readers reported amazing success with killing scorpions and it is safe for pets and children. I sent that info on to my sister in Phoenix who has had a few in the house and it terrified to be stung again. You can find the info online but I don't have a link, the manufacturer does not report on use for scorpions but readers were delighted, per that article.

 

[JasonLion]

The chlorine gets used up almost instantly, with no significant environmental impact, when you discharge the water. The DE can be slightly more of a problem in some particular cases. The main thing is that you don't want DE becoming airborne and blowing around (after it dries out). In many climates, that doesn't happen. But occasionally in arid areas it can be a problem.

 

[PaulR]

I read one report where apparently borates caused a problem with some more delicate vegetation, but I think you said elsewhere you won't use borates because of the dogs. Most likely as long as you stay away from algaecides with copper, you're okay.

 

[geekgranny]

Off Topic: You might want to know about an insecticide called Shoo-Fly. The "Home Handyman" column in our local paper mentioned it, readers reported amazing success with killing scorpions and it is safe for pets and children. I sent that info on to my sister in Phoenix who has had a few in the house and it terrified to be stung again. You can find the info online but I don't have a link, the manufacturer does not report on use for scorpions but readers were delighted, per that article.

I don't mean to lecture here. I just think it is good info for all of us and I certainly needed a review on what I used to know but have forgotten.

See "permethrin vs pyrethrum" at this link http://www.livingwithbugs.com/permethrin_pyrethrum.html and
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/Permtech.pdf and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethrin

Thanks for info. Although I wasn't aware of Shoo-Fly system, which I just checked out I have been using, for many years, a smaller system, using Pyrethrin, in my storage sheds, mostly to control moths. For years I've keep one of the canisters in my kitchen to hand spray when too many flies entered through the open back door. Although, I've stated, that we don't use "insecticides" , I'll have to retract that as I have misted the air in kitchen on occasion and do keep a bottle of Adam's Flea and Tick spray, main ingredient Pyrethrins, for quick kill of fleas on visiting dogs/cats or if mine pick some up while off-site. I, also, use some botanical insecticides such as but not limited to neem. We've tried Adams Flea Spray on a captured adult Scorpion. After a few days it was still alive. Haven't tried it on young ones though. It might be more effective.

Contact exposure from Pyrethrins, for humans and most mammals is virtually safe, in small amounts, even for day old puppies, but INHALATION exposure in certain amounts can cause respiratory problems and even respiratory shock in extreme cases. BTW.. my husband and I are both medically trained. I'm too lazy to look up and report some of the studies but have direct experience with respiratory issue where lots of Pyrethrins were being used (sprayed) in an area with inadequate ventilation. This is back in the mid-80's when I ran a "dog wash". Since that time I have been very careful about breathing in very much of it at a time. Except for the rare, quick spray and leaving the area, in my kitchen, for flies, I do all dog/cat spraying (very infrequently as I've had the same 32 ounce bottle for about 3 years) outside. I, also, don't know the "half-life" of Pyrethrins, for ongoing kill on surfaces, but I certainly wouldn't want the mist floating around in a tight enclosure. Horse barns, dog kennels, sheds, etc., with lots of ventilation are a different story and usually offer less concentration to be inhaled.

DE, boric acid, and other relatively harmless dry powders or wetted powders is another pretty safe alternative but best used in areas where the dry powder won't be stirred up and inhaled. Which brings us back to my original comment in previous post about our dust and silt, which is from limestone, seeming to have some killing affects on many "bugs" that enter my house and may even help to keep down the scorpion population. We do have to be careful about what kind of DE, i.e. food grade, horticultural grade, pool grade, etc, we use. Here's short note on DE, different grades of diatomaceous earth explained, http://www.safe2use.com/safe-products/diatomaceous/diatomaceous_Earth.htm

These are just about the safest substances that can be used for insect control but we still need to take precautions. Again, thanks for the info.
geekgranny

 

[geekgranny]

The chlorine gets used up almost instantly, with no significant environmental impact, when you discharge the water. The DE can be slightly more of a problem in some particular cases. The main thing is that you don't want DE becoming airborne and blowing around (after it dries out). In many climates, that doesn't happen. But occasionally in arid areas it can be a problem.

Thank much. I've done some reading today on DE. Article at this link http://www.safe2use.com/safe-products/diatomaceous/diatomaceous_Earth.htm states, "Make sure the DE you use meets World Health Organization (WHO) safety standards. WHO cautions that DE with a crystalline silica content over three percent (3%) is dangerous for ingestion by humans or animals. Safe Solutions, Inc. DE has less than 1% free silica. Swimming pool DE ranges from 60% to 70% free silica."

Although our escarpment is composed or limestone, referred to a "Austin Chalk", I'm certainly hoping it doesn't have the large amounts of silica that swimming pool DE has. Really need to check out. One note. A few years ago a friend of my neighbors commented that when she moved here from Abilene, she was shocked at the numbers of children in her daughter's grade school, here, who had asthma compared to the numbers of children with asthma in her daughter's school in Abilene. Makes one wonder.

At any rate I'm concerned enough immediately start using "ZeoFiber—100% Natural Cellulose Fiber", http://www.zeoinc.com/zeofiber2.html and encourage neighbors with DE filters to consider doing so too.

geekgranny

 

[geekgranny]

I read one report where apparently borates caused a problem with some more delicate vegetation, but I think you said elsewhere you won't use borates because of the dogs. Most likely as long as you stay away from algaecides with copper, you're okay.

Thanks much. Right, my dogs and squirrels drink too much water from the pool.

I certainly hope I don't need to use any algaecides now that I've started BBB (sans borates). I haven't needed them in ten years using ionization (copper and silver?) (and some chlorine and floating pucks). The few times I've had a swamp in Spring, when I didn't keep pool open all year and without leaf netting, loads of chlorine and scrubbing quickly took care of the swamp. We won't discuss the three acid washings I've done since '96. And thank goodness the plaster job in '96 was a very good thick one, too.

I've been bragging to people about our lack of algae for too many years to stop doing it now. :clown:
geekgranny

 

[Titanium]

geekgranny said,

When most bugs enter house they die in a few hours, except for the scorpions, tarantulas, and some spiders.

Scorpions and tarantulas? IN the HOUSE? ale:

 

[anonapersona]

Shoo-Fly also comes in a can, and is pyrethrum based apparently.

An article in todays "Happy Handyman" column, Greater Houston Weekly suppliment in local Woodlands paper. This column can be found on line somehow, I just retyped it for you.


Have you noticed ants around the kitchen, they can drive you nuts. But I know of a product that gets rid of ants, and not only ants but silverfish, spiders, and even scorpions.

Last week on our radio show a lady called in and she has problems with scorpions and when she went on vacation she sprayed her house and when she came back she had 145 dead scoprions in the house. Wow, I was shocked that she counted them, but I had forgotten what a great product Shoo-Fly Ant and Roach really is. You know when you have 300,000 items on the shelves sometimes you forget how well a product works. The really great part about Shoo-Fly is that it is harmelss to pets and children, and has no odor. And it keeps working for weeks. Now it doesn't say that it kills scorpions on the label of Shoo-Fly, so I called the company. They asked, "What is a scorpion?" Well if they lived in Texas, they would know what one is, and if one is in your boot -- that happened to me. Not a good day! So if you are having a problems with ants, get a can of Shoo-Fly and get rid of them.

http://www.shoo-fly.com/product.php?productid=48

 

[geekgranny]

geekgranny said,

When most bugs enter house they die in a few hours, except for the scorpions, tarantulas, and some spiders.

Scorpions and tarantulas? IN the HOUSE? ale:

Scorpions are a fact of life in many parts of the Southwest. You learn to live with them. But this year we've only stomped on about five the whole year in the house. Our population, inside, is way down from normal this year.

Tarantulas, the ones we have here, are harmless and can be gently handled without getting a bite. Pet stores even sell Tarantulas for pets. A few years ago we had one that took up residence in our kitchen. Hubby even put a little hide box for it on counter. I got up in the middle of night, a few weeks into having our new "pet", found the fridge freezer door open and closed it. Next morning found frozen Tarantula corpse in freezer. We were sad. With the new puppies, who will play with anything (Jake Mastiff got his second copperhead bite last week, both times on face; makes him look like a giant Sharpie for 24 hours. We treat with benadryl until swelling goes down and antibiotics for a couple of weeks. All doggies get vaccinated for Rattlesnake) I gently pick them up in my palm and take them outside so puppies won't kill them.

I've only been stung twice by scorpions since I came to Texas in 1971; both times at this house. First was on foot putting on a sandal I didn't shake first; didn't hurt all that badly nor for long. Second was on finger right at joint while handling wood boards without gloves. That one hurt and throbbed. A few days later a red wasp stung me twice on the very same spot. It affected my joint and was so painful it would wake me up at night. For about a year after that the joint would swell and throb for a few days every month.

Fire ants are another baddie here but our population of those is way down this year too. They not only hurt but are known to kill ground nesting animals especially newborns. I've even read that they have been known to kill newborn herd animals. Some people are allergic to their stings. Although I am allergic to honey bees (and Rhesus monkey hair/dander but no other monkey hair that I know of) and carry an Anakit at all times, I once got over 100 stings (I stopped counting at my knee so probably had a hundred more) and didn't have much of any allergy reaction.

A few years ago I was bitten on face by a Black Widow, while racking leaves. Got pretty sick. I get bitten by spiders all the time out here (spider haven) and can tell what is spider vs other bite. This summer, Brown Recluse bite on leg. I was lucky in that I could tell it was not a "normal" bite and began treatment quickly. Only left a small scar with no tissue loss. Most Brown Recluse bites are untreated and cause few problems; you only hear about the really bad ones.

All of our crawling "bugs" populations are down this year inside and out. We still have about the same numbers of mosquitoes but fewer biting flies. Honey bee numbers seem to be holding up. Throughout the spring to fall thousands of honey bees swarm several flowering trees/plants, two of them "giant" holly trees right by pool. I've never been stung although I'm frequently very close to them especially while working/playing in pool. One bee sting sends me in to anaphylaxis.

You either get used to it, move, or continuously poison your environment with insecticides. BTW... the pyrethroids (manmade) and pyrethrins (plant extract), all, are deadly to honey bees and can be harmful to aquatic animals especially with their increased use, agricultrual/ household/industrial runoff.

We have a pet snake. That's one reason we don't use even the safe sprays or bombs in house BUT not the only reason.

geekgranny=alice

 

[geekgranny]

Shoo-Fly also comes in a can, and is pyrethrum based apparently.

An article in todays "Happy Handyman" column, Greater Houston Weekly suppliment in local Woodlands paper. This column can be found on line somehow, I just retyped it for you.


Have you noticed ants around the kitchen, they can drive you nuts. But I know of a product that gets rid of ants, and not only ants but silverfish, spiders, and even scorpions.

Last week on our radio show a lady called in and she has problems with scorpions and when she went on vacation she sprayed her house and when she came back she had 145 dead scorpions in the house. Wow, I was shocked that she counted them, but I had forgotten what a great product Shoo-Fly Ant and Roach really is. You know when you have 300,000 items on the shelves sometimes you forget how well a product works. The really great part about Shoo-Fly is that it is harmless to pets and children, and has no odor. And it keeps working for weeks. Now it doesn't say that it kills scorpions on the label of Shoo-Fly, so I called the company. They asked, "What is a scorpion?" Well if they lived in Texas, they would know what one is, and if one is in your boot -- that happened to me. Not a good day! So if you are having a problems with ants, get a can of Shoo-Fly and get rid of them.

http://www.shoo-fly.com/product.php?productid=48

The canisters I use in battery operated, timed, dispensers, in sheds and two storage lockers, are similar but smaller. Been using them for at least 20 years. They say on can "for flying insects". Main igredient Pyrethrins.

We've amazingly never had roach or ant issues in the house. Last summer we had a few ants come into the kitchen. I put some little ant bait stations around. Ants were gone in a week. I don't know if the stations did anything, as people with serious ant problems have told me that they don't work for them. I'm suspecting that whatever else kills other crawling bugs in our house, i.e., our dust, probably did in the ants. On rare occasions a "roach type" bug will fly in the open back door. I haven't seen any this year.

Our house, inside, gets amazingly dusty. People who have cleaned for me are shocked at the amount of dust that settles on everything from one week to the next. The dust is exacerbated by our herds of big active dogs constantly stirring it up outside, rolling in it, and bringing it in, and then stirring it up in the house as they do what dogs do; walk/run around, play, roll, occasionally scratch, shake (like shaking water off), etc. (Downstairs is all tile) "Regular" dusting doesn't work. Most surfaces have to be vacuumed first and then touched up with regular dusting. A week later everything is covered with dust. I have a herd/pack/army of iRobot Dirtdogs, Roombas, and Scoobas that really help a lot. We, also, have a cliche/gravel, rock drive that contributes a lot of dust floating around the air.

They asked, "What is a scorpion?" Well if they lived in Texas, they would know what one is..

For sure.

As far as I can decipher Pyrethrum is a combination of two Pyrethrin (plant derived) molecules. These are the "least" harmful but don't last very long. The various other pyrethroids (man made) are more toxic and last longer in the environment. Here's great info about: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/phs155.html
Okay so I'm a multi-geek. My husband calls me an "information suck". :lol: I hope that's okay to say here. :?

As far as odors go there are some products on the market that are frequently used by by "specialist" who service homes for insects/rodents/etc., control/kill. These products are touted to be odor free and very safe, even for asthmatics, after a small amount of time. I used to have frequent, very debilitating migraines, brought on mostly by odors or substances in air like, fragrances, raw onion oil, or even smelling red wines (two of my favorite things). I guess this put me into the "environmentally sensitive" group of people. They were so frequent, 3-5 a week, that I was on prophylactic meds for many years which kept them somewhat under control and me functional most of the time. On several occasions I walked into houses that had been very recently serviced (within a few days before), not knowing this, and not smelling anything, and within minutes developed a debilitating migraine; so bad I couldn't even drive myself home. It was always after the onset that I found out the houses had been treated. A couple of years ago I rented a storage unit. I walked back to it from the office to put my lock on but opened it up to check it out. While walking back up to office searing migraine pain started. And then the handyman stopped me to tell me he had just sprayed it. It had almost undetectable odor but surely did a number on me. This, to me, takes these products out of the "safe" category. I'm sure these experiences, along with many others with airborne issues, have put me on the defensive as far as many products go. Funny thing is that diesel fumes (I have a diesel truck) and cigarette smoke aren't very strong triggers. Extremely clean houses, using "normal" cleaning products are a certain migraine trigger for me. This is a little known problem for a lot of people, and not just migraine sufferers. So "safe" is certainly relative.

These "issues" are one of the things that have "kept" me using pool ionization for so long. Chlorine is not much of an issue but I've always tried to avoid as many extra products in my environment as possible. Now that I know about BBB and understand it I know that "extra products" can be kept to a minimum. So thrilled about this. Only wish I had known about it right after I acid washed the pool last year.