Electrical guidance needed please

[? D ?]

I'm needing to get our pool pump wired up properly as I've had enough of us running it the no-no way (yep, we've been using a drop cord). We were going to have it done by a proper electrician but the guy turned out to be a thief and disappeared with some of our money and no work was done. But that is a different issue altogether.

In any case, I'm going to do the majority of the work myself. I'll dig the trench, lay the wire and hook up the outdoor recepticle for the plug from the pump. This way I can unplug the pump and take it indoors when we close the pool down for the winter. Then I'll have a qualified electrician (different person naturally) connect the underground wire to the main house electrical panel (which is on the outside of the house).

What I need guidance with, is what type of wire do I ask for that will safely run the pump when I go to purchase it. The type I'm after is the one that can can buried in the ground that doesn't need to be in any type of PVC conduit - I hope that made sense - as I'm trying to keep the costs down so that I don't have to resort to the no-no way again. I don't know the name of that wire and I also don't know what guage (?) I should get, since I am no electrician. Oh, I'd also like to know what size fuse I would need to buy that goes in the main panel.

Below is a picture of the pool pumps specifications which is a 2.5 HP. The distance from the recepticle to the main panel is 130 feet. As always, thanks in advance.

 

[Bama Rambler]

You'll need type UF wire. Size for running 130' needs to be 10/2 with ground. That'll keep your voltage drop in range. You'll need a 20amp breaker to fit your panel. By the way, I don't believe that your power panel is on the outside of your house. That's probably your sub feed panel and you're not allowed to run single pole breakers out of it. Check to be sure. Most of them have a warning that no single pole breakers can be used in them. That means you're probably going to have to run the wire from the panel somewhere inside the house. The max distance you can run that #10 wire is 150' and keep your voltage drop acceptable.

 

[? D ?]

Thanks for the reply Bama.

Ok, so I will ask for 10/2 UF wire with ground along with a 20amp breaker. Is that wire also called UF-B?

Regarding the panel, yes it is on the outside of our house ... should I have said main fuse box ?? Pictures of it are below. The service disconnect switch says 200 if that isn't clearly seen in the 3rd picture and the 4th picture shows the 3 spare areas - one of which will end up being used by the 20amp breaker.

 

[Bama Rambler]

I stand corrected!

I'd use circuit #12. That way you leave a double pole space open for any future 230v loads.

And yes, UF-B is good.

Are you sure I can't talk you into running it in PVC conduit??? You'd really be better off doing that, but I understand finances.

 

[JohnT]

I doubt you are going to talk an electrician into hooking up a circuit like that. He doesn't know what he's hooking up and could probably held responsible for code violations. He's also going to charge through the nose for a small job.

Running a single 220 line would not be code compliant. A convenience 120 outlet is required, as is a bonding system.

I'd imagine he would be willing to let you trench it and have him do the rest.

Put your wire in conduit. PVC conduit is easy to use, cheap and is safer if somebody decides to plant a bush or set a post.

 

[? D ?]

Any electrician that came to do the final hook up would see all the work that I would have done as I wouldn't cover the wire until after he/she had seen it.

Getting a bit confused about the convenience outlet and bonding plus I thought using conduit would end up more expensive

As for bush planting or post digging, the route would never be having any of that happen to it and we don't ever intend to move from here .... but ... if we did I'd mark out the route.

In any case ... and it's some good news:

One of my nephews has put me in touch with a friend of his that is an electrician and he'll be coming over in a couple of hours.

Also, a customer dropped into my wife's place of work earlier and heard about what happened and he is an electrician and also offered to help us out.

Plus, a local sheriff - kind of handy that we get on great with the local cops here - is going to take care of the thief for us; he knows the guy.

So chatting with you guys and the above news has made facing the day a lot better now :sun: - big thanks

 

[Sparkmaster]

Ok.. for some reason I cannot find no reference in the NEC where you can use UF cable for Above ground pools install.. In the past (years ago) I got failed for doing that..

Somebody could reference me to it..

Thanks..

Now for my reference and this is all of NH and not just for this town..

http://www.town.goffstown.nh.us/forms/P ... ements.pdf

 

[JasonLion]

The rules tend to vary somewhat from place to place. The document Sparkmaster listed shows the most common requirements, but your area might be different.

 

[? D ?]

Ok, well I'm now scratching my head more after the visit from my nephews electrician friend due to a conflict in wire suggested. He was very supportive about my wanting to keep the costs down and doing some of the work myself so he gave me a list of materials to get. I'll put it here for y'all to look at and the wire that conflicts with Bama Rambler's suggestions I'll highlight in red.

1 x single gang f/s box with ½" knock out's

1 x 10' piece of ½" PVC electrical conduit

1 x in use weather proof cover

2 x ½" PVC connectors

1 x GFCI (the letter O with 2 straight lines going through it :?: ) 15 amp grade

1 x 20 amp Siemans Breaker

130' of 12/2 UF type electrical wire

Any thoughts on why the smaller wire type was suggested?

 

[Titanium]

130' of 12/2 UF type electrical wire

Any thoughts on why the smaller wire type was suggested?

Because your nephew's friend is not a very good electrician and he is neglecting to upsize the wire size due to the voltage drop in 130'.

Another consideration: the FLC (Full Load Current) of the motor is rated at 16.4 amp. That is a LOT of current on a 20 amp rated wire, which is what #12 wire is rated. Most circuit breakers (you have circuit breakers, not fuses) are only rated for 80% current if that load runs for longer than three hours straight, which is entirely possible for a filter pump. 80% of 20 Amp is only 16 Amps, which is over the motor FLC of 16.4 Amp. So I would say that a 20 amp breaker is not large enough due to this problem. The next larger size breaker is a 30 amp breaker. And that breaker would require a minimum of #10 wire (good for 30 amps).

+1 on the idea of using PVC conduit instead of burying wire directly in the ground. PVC conduit is dirt cheap, and is easy to install. Just don't run Type UF wire in the PVC conduit (a sure sign of an amateur installation) - rather run individual THWN #10 wires in the PVC conduit.

 

[? D ?]

Thank you for the reply Titanium. Some questions then:

Will I need to get a two pole 30amp breaker or a single pole one?

Would it be prudent to get a GFCI one?

Regarding the THWN #10 wires, if you don't mind, what specifically do I ask for when I go to the supply store (sorry if that sounds like a really stupid question)?

Is taking that route going to be more expensive than using UF wire?

 

[Bama Rambler]

First, Here's my advice to you since you're not electrically inclined. Go hire a licensed electrician to hook up your pump.

Now to do a little straightening out of this thread. See my comments below.

1 x single gang f/s box with ½" knock out's This is for the receptacle

1 x 10' piece of ½" PVC electrical conduit This is only 10' of couduit. What he's going to do is run it from the panel into the trench and from the trench to the box.

1 x in use weather proof cover Note the "In-Use" part

2 x ½" PVC connectors

1 x GFCI (the letter O with 2 straight lines going through it :?: ) 15 amp grade I'd go with a regular 20 amp grade receptacle. See my next comment!

1 x 20 amp Siemans Breaker I'd make this a GFI breaker

130' of 12/2 UF type electrical wire See Titanium's and my post about voltage drop. It needs to be 10 awg or bigger.

80% of 20 Amp is only 16 Amps, which is over the motor FLC of 16.4 Amp. So I would say that a 20 amp breaker is not large enough due to this problem. The next larger size breaker is a 30 amp breaker. And that breaker would require a minimum of #10 wire (good for 30 amps). I'll suggest that you read your owners manual on this and see exactly what amperage device they recommend. I'm sticking with my 20amp suggestion.

Just don't run Type UF wire in the PVC conduit (a sure sign of an amateur installation) - rather run individual THWN #10 wires in the PVC conduit. I kind of disagree here but it's of no consequence. If I were running conduit all the way I wouldn't use UF but I'd still use NM sheathed.

 

[? D ?]

Ok, regarding that very first comment in green; Yes, I am not fully versed in the electrical field and it IS my intension to hire a licensed electrician to actually do the hooking up of the wiring to the components and then the wiring to the main breaker panel. However, I want to get the materials and do as much of the labor as possible myself since I don't have the funds to just have someone come by and do everything (first paragragh in first post).

I'm not asking how to actually do the wiring myself but I do want to get the right materials. I do want to point out also that I am very grateful for the advice that has already been given, especially about the size/guage of wire and the reasons why. That advice will be followed and if the intended electrician has a problem with me using 10 awg wire even after how and why I came to choose it, then he/she won't be hired to hook up the wiring.

 

[Ohm_Boy]

I would use #10 wire. There will be less loss and more capacity. I suppose that your motor might run on #12, but there isn't much headroom between the current that your motor may draw and the max allowed for #12. Considering that motor startup amp draw is 5 to 7 times running current, and that wire ampacity should be de-rated when not in free air, there simply is not enough comfort factor. Bite the bullet and install 10 gauge wire.

 

[Titanium]

D,

Your above-ground pool Century pool motor is manufactured by A.O. Smith. The link below is from A.O. Smith's CENTURY® POOL & SPA MOTOR MANUAL and shows their recommended wire sizes for various motor horsepowers and cable lengths.

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/PDF/pool_motor_manual.pdf#page=17

Your particular motor does not show a horsepower rating on the nameplate, but the motor full load amps of 16.4 Amps indicates that this is a 1 horsepower motor.

 

[Sparkmaster]

10Gauge is a must.. Any Electrician should look at that as a good choice.. Running 12 Gauge will not harm the wire but will harm the motor because of the voltage drop.. You be amazed how much amps a 12 gauge could take in free air.. We have done it in class (25 years ago ) but obviously this isn't free air..


I would never ever put a 30 amp breaker on that motor.. 16.4amps will pass any inspector for a 20 amp breaker.. Installing a 30 amp on that is a HUGE overkill and if that motor ever locks up, it will be a very long time before that breaker heats up and trips..

The amount of Pool (electrical) install I have done, not once have I been failed (Except using UF cable) from a inspector and I had quite a few instpectors make me open up JB, panels, LBs, etc..

 

[? D ?]

Once again thank you for all the replies, I am certainly leaning a lot from from you all and am taking it all on board.

Yes, I am definitely going with 10awg wire and a 20amp GFCI breaker. Oh, Titanium, there is a HP rating on the pump, I just didn't fully get it in the picture at the beginning of the post (my apologies for that) but that it is definitely a 2.5HP motor.

 

[Titanium]

Oh, Titanium, there is a HP rating on the pump, I just didn't fully get it in the picture at the beginning of the post (my apologies for that) but that it is definitely a 2.5HP motor.

Sorry, they lied. A 115 Volt 2.5 HP motor would draw more like 30 Amps. The NEC (National Electrical Code) doesn't specifically list a 2.5 HP motor, but they show a 2 HP motor drawing 24 Amps and a 3 HP motor drawing 34 Amps.

The NEC table does show, however, that a 1 HP, 115 Volt motor drawing 16 amps. The pool guys are trying to say that their motor will provide 2.5 HP, and I guess it will, right before it grinds to a halt. For purposes of all of the discussions in this thread, you're going to want to use the 1 HP figure for your pump.

 

[Titanium]

sparkmaster said

I would never ever put a 30 amp breaker on that motor.. 16.4amps will pass any inspector for a 20 amp breaker.. Installing a 30 amp on that is a HUGE overkill and if that motor ever locks up, it will be a very long time before that breaker heats up and trips..

I must admit that I was a little confused on this part. My background is in industrial electrical where we're usually dealing with much larger three-phase motors. In my past experience, motors are protected by both breakers (for short circuit protection) and overload heaters (for overload protection). The overload heaters are set usually set within 110%-125% (from memory) of the motor full load current, so the motor is protected very closely from overloads. And the circuit breaker (or fuses in some cases), per NEC code, were allowed to be sized up to a maximum of 250% of the motors full load current for inverse time breakers. And a staggering 800% (or even 1100% for energy efficient motors) for instantaneous trip breakers. In actual practice, it was very rare to have to go to these maximum sizes in order to have a motor start without tripping a circuit breaker.

So in the case of these small single-phase pool motors we seem to be at the other end of the spectrum discussing the minimum size of breaker as compared my normal experience of discussing the maximum size of breaker. I'm curious why:
1. there doesn't seem to be any overload heaters for overload protection?
2. the motors don't seem to trip seemingly very small breakers with their starting inrush current?

You do realize that virtually all breakers are only good for 80% of their amp rating if the load is continuous (i.e. more than three hours)? So a 30 Amp breaker can carry 24 amps for longer than three hours. And a 20 amp breaker can carry 16 amps for longer than three hours.